I Don't Know Why People Do This

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Seriously. This makes me angry. I've heard of several instances of this lately. Once where a radio station started calling a transman "she" after finding out about his past. More recently I heard it done in real life.

Here's the general scenario:

A transgendered person is living full time as their preferred gender. Everyone around them accepts them as their preferred gender. It is obvious what gender the person identifies with. Most people don't even know anything about the person's past. Then, some way or another, the person gets outed. The result? People start calling them by the wrong pronouns. Suddenly they have trouble keeping them straight, even when they had NO problem before.

Why?

For real. WHY?

It isn't just cruel, mean spirited people that do this. It's even supportive, well-meaning people. I have a friend who has been very supportive. She had a roommate back in college who was FTM. When I came out and asked that people refer to me only by male pronouns, she was one of the first to make a serious effort. This isn't a bad person, not at all. Yet, when she had some transgendered women in her yoga class, she called them guys. WHAT? I corrected her and told her that they weren't "guys" or "trannies" or whatever else. Just call them women! That's what they are! It hurts my soul to hear this kind of thing.

What does it cost people to just use the right pronouns? Nothing. With my friends I can understand slip-ups because they are having to relearn. With people I have never met before, it's just as easy to use one pronoun as the other. If someone has made it clear which gender they identify with, what reason is there to use the wrong pronoun? If you saw someone and read them as male or female, why does a little piece of new information change that initial impression? It really shouldn't.

At first I thought it was just mean people trying to "put you in your place". That's how I felt when it got done to me. Now I don't think it is that. I've heard people do it that don't have any ill will. I just got off the phone with a close friend who said that the confusion incongruent pronouns cause is good. She's a feminist and is in favor of having only gender neutral pronouns. I got really upset (which is why I'm posting this) and told her USING THE WRONG PRONOUN IS NEVER GOOD. To hear that kind of stuff out of a supportive, intelligent friend made me want to cry for the hopelessness of it! I explained that gender was a social construct and that there was no reason why a person shouldn't be called by their preferred pronoun...EVER. It's like people have this unquenchable need to label things and people accurately. The minute they find out what label you got stuck on you at birth they feel compelled to stick it right back on you.

Have any of you ever experienced or observed this? Why do you think people have such a hard time calling people by their preferred pronouns? Why do even people who by every indication are supportive of trans people still do it sometimes?

I am confused.

[Guest shalini]

i fully agree with u and ur absolutely right

Seriously. This makes me angry. I've heard of several instances of this lately. Once where a radio station started calling a transman "she" after finding out about his past. More recently I heard it done in real life.

Here's the general scenario:

A transgendered person is living full time as their preferred gender. Everyone around them accepts them as their preferred gender. It is obvious what gender the person identifies with. Most people don't even know anything about the person's past. Then, some way or another, the person gets outed. The result? People start calling them by the wrong pronouns. Suddenly they have trouble keeping them straight, even when they had NO problem before.

Why?

For real. WHY?

It isn't just cruel, mean spirited people that do this. It's even supportive, well-meaning people. I have a friend who has been very supportive. She had a roommate back in college who was FTM. When I came out and asked that people refer to me only by male pronouns, she was one of the first to make a serious effort. This isn't a bad person, not at all. Yet, when she had some transgendered women in her yoga class, she called them guys. WHAT? I corrected her and told her that they weren't "guys" or "trannies" or whatever else. Just call them women! That's what they are! It hurts my soul to hear this kind of thing.

What does it cost people to just use the right pronouns? Nothing. With my friends I can understand slip-ups because they are having to relearn. With people I have never met before, it's just as easy to use one pronoun as the other. If someone has made it clear which gender they identify with, what reason is there to use the wrong pronoun? If you saw someone and read them as male or female, why does a little piece of new information change that initial impression? It really shouldn't.

At first I thought it was just mean people trying to "put you in your place". That's how I felt when it got done to me. Now I don't think it is that. I've heard people do it that don't have any ill will. I just got off the phone with a close friend who said that the confusion incongruent pronouns cause is good. She's a feminist and is in favor of having only gender neutral pronouns. I got really upset (which is why I'm posting this) and told her USING THE WRONG PRONOUN IS NEVER GOOD. To hear that kind of stuff out of a supportive, intelligent friend made me want to cry for the hopelessness of it! I explained that gender was a social construct and that there was no reason why a person shouldn't be called by their preferred pronoun...EVER. It's like people have this unquenchable need to label things and people accurately. The minute they find out what label you got stuck on you at birth they feel compelled to stick it right back on you.

Have any of you ever experienced or observed this? Why do you think people have such a hard time calling people by their preferred pronouns? Why do even people who by every indication are supportive of trans people still do it sometimes?

I am confused.

[Guest Little Sara]

Yet, when she had some transgendered women in her yoga class, she called them guys.

Guys can often refer to both men and women, even a group of only girls or women can often be called guys (by their own selves as well) "Hey guys come check it out" or something like that.

from wikipedia:

"Guys", a group of two or more people, originally used to refer to groups of males, now commonly used to refer to any groups, although the singular "guy" is not usually used to refer to an individual female.

Otherwise yeah I get that this is very annoying for someone to refer to another with the wrong pronouns, wether intentionally or not.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Guys can often refer to both men and women, even a group of only girls or women can often be called guys (by their own selves as well) "Hey guys come check it out" or something like that.

from wikipedia:

Otherwise yeah I get that this is very annoying for someone to refer to another with the wrong pronouns, wether intentionally or not.

It's true. Guy can mean just a group of people. In this case, she definitely meant it in the sense of meaning "men". That's why I was so shocked.

[Guest S. Chrissie]

Somehow, it seems that the idea of someone "'was' a guy/girl" in the past just sticks to people. I am guessing it's because of the fact that humans just loves looking at the past. Even for someone who knew another person for years, and as a good friend, when that person found out that the good friend "was born genetically a guy/girl", theiy prespective changes and it's never the same again.

Yes, it's very annoying. My psychiatrist referred to a friend of mine, a FTM, who seen him before as a "she" even though when the doctor was talking to my friend last time, he referred to my friend as a "he" when he talked to my friend's mom. Then suddenly now when I came for my appointment, the doctor started to use "she" when referring to my friend? That doesn't make sense! Even professionals do that, so yeah.....

Sherlyn

[Guest Zabrak]

I know what you mean. Someone important to me called me by the wrong gender and I lost all trust in this person.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Zabrak, I know what you mean about losing trust. That's how I feel too. Knowing that my friend didn't "get it" made me trust her less. If she doesn't see how important it is to get pronouns right, then it is hard to trust her.

Yes, it's very annoying. My psychiatrist referred to a friend of mine, a FTM, who seen him before as a "she" even though when the doctor was talking to my friend last time, he referred to my friend as a "he" when he talked to my friend's mom. Then suddenly now when I came for my appointment, the doctor started to use "she" when referring to my friend? That doesn't make sense! Even professionals do that, so yeah.....

Even that makes more sense than someone who only knew a person after transition changing to the wrong pronouns. I was so annoyed that I called my friend back and presented her with this situation:

Suppose you find out that your boyfriend is transgendered and was born female. You only knew him as a man. Would it make sense to suddenly start calling him "she"?

She saw the logic in the argument, but I still don't think she fully understood how HORRIBLE it feels to have someone do that to you. She doesn't think it is a big deal. Not only do I hate being called the wrong pronoun, but it literally hurts me to see it happen to others. Maybe people who aren't transgendered can never understand what a big deal pronouns are. If you've never been called the wrong one, you don't understand how it hurts.

From now on I am going to call her by male pronouns only. So there. Turn about is fair play.

[Guest Little Sara]

Please don't use transgendered as a noun, it's an adjective, and as such, does not take the -ed ending.

Transgender people, gay people, lesbian people, bisexual people, intersex people.

Not transgendered, gayed, lesbianed, bisexualed, intersexed.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Please don't use transgendered as a noun, it's an adjective, and as such, does not take the -ed ending.

Transgender people, gay people, lesbian people, bisexual people, intersex people.

Not transgendered, gayed, lesbianed, bisexualed, intersexed.

Sorry. I really didn't mean any disrespect. I just didn't know.

[Guest Little Sara]

I didn't mean to sound rude, its just so common, news articles, the whole GLBT community, society at large etc all do it. It's just not appropriate usage though and I'm trying to get it more known by calling it when I see it.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I didn't mean to sound rude, its just so common, news articles, the whole GLBT community, society at large etc all do it. It's just not appropriate usage though and I'm trying to get it more known by calling it when I see it.

Ain't no thing. If you keep quiet no one will know. That's where I picked up the common error from...the community at large. Now I know, and I'll pass it on.

[Guest Jackson]

I think it's a combination of several different problems. Partially it is because it is a learned behavior. For example, it's easier to train a dog to do a new trick than to try to retrain bad behavior. Partially I don't think people do realize how important gender-correct pronouns are to transgender people.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Dear StrandedOutThere,

Mean people, are well just mean. They must simply be ignored. Other people who are supportive, simply do not understand fully. Remember, most people cannot even begin to comprehend that one would ever desire to be the opposite gender than what they were born. I am sure you know that. They cannot understand that being transgenderd is not simply deciding to wear a different style of clothes than you used to. It is a very fundamental key to your self awareness (we all know that). So, in spite of their caring, they slip up because that cannot really identify with what we are all about. Don't blame them, for they no not what they do.

Good topic!!!

bernie

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I think part of what got me so upset is that even my best friend didn't "get it". I thought she, of all people, understood how important it was. She minimizes how important it is because she thinks the distinction between male and female is pointless. I guess it is hard for a person who thinks we should only use gender neutral pronouns to understand why I get upset when she uses the wrong ones.

[Guest April63]

Well, Stranded, let's think about how most other people would view a transsexual. So let's say we have an MTF called Sally. Once Sally reveals that she is an MTF transsexual, what do many other people think? Most of them doubt authenticity. Is she really a woman? Or is he really a man who wants to be a woman? So many people perhaps use the "wrong" pronouns, because to them, those pronouns may be the "right" pronouns. Right and wrong are based on our perspectives. I don't think most people mean to mean, or do anything wrong. They are just doing what they think is right. Or saying what they think is right.

April

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Well, Stranded, let's think about how most other people would view a transsexual. So let's say we have an MTF called Sally. Once Sally reveals that she is an MTF transsexual, what do many other people think? Most of them doubt authenticity. Is she really a woman? Or is he really a man who wants to be a woman? So many people perhaps use the "wrong" pronouns, because to them, those pronouns may be the "right" pronouns. Right and wrong are based on our perspectives. I don't think most people mean to mean, or do anything wrong. They are just doing what they think is right. Or saying what they think is right.

April

I guess my point is that, in the case of Sally, she's introduced herself to me with an unambiguously female name. If she'd said "Pat" or "Terry" or maybe even "Max", that might be a little different. I don't think many people introduce themselves as Sally or Jennifer or Joy or Sarah when they want me to call them "he". Likewise, there is probably very little chance that someone who introduces themselves as Robert or William wants me to call them "she", regardless of what I may then find out about their past.

I do see your point though. Although it would be better to just ask which pronoun to use, most people think that is the absolute worst thing they could do...and so they just use whatever seems right to them at the time. In most spur of the moment interactions, what you are saying is dead on...absolutely, totally true.

To clarify, here are some specific instances that I am annoyed by. Simple misunderstandings aside:

Scenario 1: A person has known coworker x as a male. He uses the men's room. He refers to himself by male pronouns. He has grown a beard. One day the office gossip pool reports that coworker x was born female. Now people start using female pronouns. This, in my opinion, is NOT cool.

Scenario 2: A woman attends a yoga class each week. She is known by an unambiguously female name, wears makeup, wears women's clothes, and has long hair. Some people in the yoga class find out that she was born male but transitioned over 20 years ago. Suddenly they start calling her "he". Again...not cool.

Scenario 3: Friend won't try to call me by the correct pronouns because it upsets her to think of me as male.

In scenario 3, my friend is just a freak. In scenarios 1 and 2, at least from what I can tell, it's like people want to teach the individual a lesson...or let them know they'll never really be a man...or a woman, whatever the case may be. I think that's both unacceptable and cruel and that most people know EXACTLY what they're doing. I mean, there is no way that they can't understand how humiliating that is.

[Guest Little Sara]

I guess my point is that, in the case of Sally, she's introduced herself to me with an unambiguously female name. If she'd said "Pat" or "Terry" or maybe even "Max", that might be a little different. I don't think many people introduce themselves as Sally or Jennifer or Joy or Sarah when they want me to call them "he". Likewise, there is probably very little chance that someone who introduces themselves as Robert or William wants me to call them "she", regardless of what I may then find out about their past.

I do see your point though. Although it would be better to just ask which pronoun to use, most people think that is the absolute worst thing they could do...and so they just use whatever seems right to them at the time. In most spur of the moment interactions, what you are saying is dead on...absolutely, totally true.

To clarify, here are some specific instances that I am annoyed by. Simple misunderstandings aside:

Scenario 1: A person has known coworker x as a male. He uses the men's room. He refers to himself by male pronouns. He has grown a beard. One day the office gossip pool reports that coworker x was born female. Now people start using female pronouns. This, in my opinion, is NOT cool.

Scenario 2: A woman attends a yoga class each week. She is known by an unambiguously female name, wears makeup, wears women's clothes, and has long hair. Some people in the yoga class find out that she was born male but transitioned over 20 years ago. Suddenly they start calling her "he". Again...not cool.

Scenario 3: Friend won't try to call me by the correct pronouns because it upsets her to think of me as male.

In scenario 3, my friend is just a freak. In scenarios 1 and 2, at least from what I can tell, it's like people want to teach the individual a lesson...or let them know they'll never really be a man...or a woman, whatever the case may be. I think that's both unacceptable and cruel and that most people know EXACTLY what they're doing. I mean, there is no way that they can't understand how humiliating that is.

You'd be surprised. Most people take for granted the right pronoun usage and can't fathom someone calling them anything else. Maybe they do want to teach a lesson (which is stupid), but they probably *don't* understand how humiliating it is. They think you're sooo different from them that it's okay for them to other you. Some people believe that you invalidate their maleness or femaleness just by existing (insecure little buggers) and want to 'correct that' by reversing what they perceive and "putting you in your place". Much like what happened to Michelle Dumaresq in 2006. The 2nd place's woman's boyfriend wrote on a t-shirt with a marker "100% pure woman champ".

They can't imagine it, they don't want to. You disturb their "the world functions that way" vision, and they prefer to squash the bug than to amend their vision of the world.

[Guest Pól_Eire]

In scenario 3, my friend is just a freak. In scenarios 1 and 2, at least from what I can tell, it's like people want to teach the individual a lesson...or let them know they'll never really be a man...or a woman, whatever the case may be. I think that's both unacceptable and cruel and that most people know EXACTLY what they're doing. I mean, there is no way that they can't understand how humiliating that is.

I think sometimes, maybe even often, this is the case. I think you also have to allow for the following possibility:

People may be using the wrong pronouns because they're reacting poorly to a piece of information that upsets and disturbs their understanding of their environment. It can be a reflection of their discomfort with the relative unfamiliarity of trans-ness, not personal and not purposely directed at the transperson, but a reflection of the mental state of the cisgender person in question. I definitely don't think this is true all the time -- a lot of times people are just plain mean, like bernie said. But when people encounter concepts that they are unfamiliar with, they generally don't react in a way that's ideal. People who feel uncomfortable or unsettled, who suddenly need to fit new information into their interpretation of their surroundings -- even if that new information shouldn't matter -- are off their game. When even well-meaning people are thrown off their game, they're much more likely to make mistakes.

I'm not apologizing for them. I know how much it hurts on our end of it. It hurts. A lot, sometimes. I'm just trying to understand why it might happen, or, at least, what's contributing to it.

-Pól

[Sally]

Ok, it's time for Sally to weigh in with another story from her personal archives.

My sister is one of the people who knows about me and she is trying so hard to understand but she told me that she wasn't sure that she would ever be able to think of me as Sally or her sister because I have been her brother for so long.

For really close friends who have known you for so long before, I have to give them a pass because it is very hard for them as well.

Not everyone who uses a wrong pronoun is doing it to hurt you, they are doing it to help them - to remember why they are your friend.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest RainBird]

This really boils my temper when people use the wrong pronouns out of deliberate disregard!

Why do some people do this? Is it really that hard to use you brain and and have a little bit of consideration? Apparently so.

[Guest Selene Lavelle]

Well I know how that is, I HATE the people in school that do that. It's a thing like humiliation. They do it all the time in school and they do it to be funny. It hurts no matter what. Whether you're in high school, middle, college, or in the adult world, it hurts no matter what. Just hold your head high. I know it sounds hard, but you know, keep in mind, karma and recieving their just desserts.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

I posted - server ate it - thats enough

Lizzy

Sorry you guys - I was wise and wonderful and insightful - solved world hunger and described how to save 99% on SRS

Too bad!

Irritated!!!!

[Sally]

I posted - server ate it - thats enough

Lizzy

Sorry you guys - I was wise and wonderful and insightful - solved world hunger and described how to save 99% on SRS

Too bad!

Irritated!!!!

Not again?

Well, back to the old drawing board.

I think that in a school situation the teachers and all staff should be educated as to haw to address thransgendered students and see to it that everyone knows that they are the 'only' acceptable ones to use!

Love ya,

Sally