So about this new discrimination bill in Florida?

[Guest Plaid Chameleon]

And right when I thought things were finally leveling off...this pops up. Apparnetly if you haven't heard, some politician in Miami is trying to get a bill passed that would make it illegal for a transgendered person to use the right bathroom. It says that people such as myself and anyone else living in the state of Florida who falls into the category of trans could be sentanced to up to a thousand dollar fine and or a year in prison. o-0.....I'm effectivly terrified. While it's likely this monster of a bill will never make it all the way up the chain of command....after what just happened in Indiana....I'm scared. I've done a little poking around, and I know some of the laws in the city I live, in which actually happens to have rules in place barring discrimination against trans people, then again if something like this goes through...I do not understand how people can be so twisted. Thoughts?

[Guest]

Typical politicians solving problems that don't exist. Everyone seems to be on this restroom bandwagon.

[Drea]

I don't know of one in Miami-Dade against trans. Miami had passed an ordinance that allowed people to use facilities for whatever gender they claimed to be. So it seems to be odd for one doing the opposite in Miami to be proposed, but if proposed since the other passed it seems unlikely to succeed.

Now, and this may be what you are referring to, in a backlash response to the Miami-Dade ordinance that opponents felt was too broad there been a law proposed at the state level. The state one has some problems. It isn't the total disaster most in the trans community make it out to be.

It does pose some problem for some trans people. It wouldn't allow CD or part time people access to multiple occupant single sex facilities and it could be a problem for those from out of state (I'll explain below) and for teen and minors.

At first read, and perhaps even the first form of the proposed law it seemed to just allow based upon birth sex, and in all likelihood probably wouldn't have gone too far...

Surprisingly it has passed a couple hurdles. Looking closer at the details it would seem that it has gotten as far as it has in part because it seems to accommodate trans people. If one looks into all the details and definitions in the proposed law, this is where it seems to accommodate trans.

1) It doesn't apply to single occupant single sex facilities it does not restrict trans people there.

2) It doesn't apply when to any multi-occupant facility as long as it can be locked (and presumably is locked) while person is using the facility.

3) It specifically states that the sex as listed on ones birth certificate, drivers license or passport. The good news here is that Florida allows gender marker changes on driver's license based on a doctors letter stating appropriate treatments or some such. Essentially one can get it changed if one's therapist writes a letter. No surgery is required and doesn't even appear hormones required. At the fed level gender marker on passport can be changed in the same way.

The up side to the law, surely an unintended consequence, is that once a person does get their ID changed they would be obligated to use the facilities aligned with that of the new gender marker which should prove interesting in some situations like workplace that might be reluctant to acknowledge new gender.

So yes it can pose some problems for some. For those transitioning, given the states ease of changing drivers license gender marker it isn't going to be an issue except for the early transitional stages till one gets document change. But even then single occupant facilities are not barred. I know for some this is totally unacceptable. When I transitioned, well I wasn't about to go demanding to use ladies room from day one presenting. I just wasn't ready so I used discretion and restricted myself to single stall facilities till I was ready and by the time I was ready changing documents was already occurring.

On the other hand, if one is trying the do it yourself route, never see a doctor, or only planning to live part time, or CD, it will be an obstacle.

Some people suggest that this somehow will lead to panty checks or document checks in restroom. A flawed assertion because the proposed law more or less conforms to what most people presumed was the legality of someone using a single sex facility different from their sex. The enforcement will strictly come up when there is some question or issue arising,

So overall I agree there are some problems. It isn't a total disaster.

I know from a community advocate standpoint the bill is opposed in its entirety cause it isn't like the Miami-Dade ordinance. It certainly isn't the unreasonable, it only recognizes birth sex that many try and portray it as.

So will it get altered more to address the concern areas and just how should it be altered? With the trans advocates be successful in blocking it entirely or because they block it entirely and thus lose credibility to push for amendments to the law will a form of the bill without problems addressed become law?

The positive side is the general population seem to be acknowledging trans people and recognizing the need to accommodate. At least for those changing gender roles because this is what people are told transgender is. So they support laws protecting transgender without much concern about the language. When critics point out that laws like the Miami-Dade that also include people who aren't changing gender roles the questions come up. Why someone not changing gender roles needs access too?

The "because I say so" standard for access like the Miami-Dade ordinance does not even have any conditions about consistency or persistency in gender identification single sex facilities are open to anyone who wishes to claim access. Even many trans folks (at least among those transitioning) have some issue with this myself included.

I doubt anyone got to the end of this wall of text. The long and short of it, one has to deal with reality. The proposed law in Florida is partially accommodating, but needs work. It could be much worse however. It came about as a backlash to the Miami-Dade law illustrating the risk of over reaching.

Whatever happens one can fight for change but don't forget the practical solutions in the mean time as those can make the difference between living in a perceived hell or getting on with life.

[Guest]

It does pose some problem for some trans people. It wouldn't allow CD or part time people access to multiple occupant single sex facilities

Hmmmm. So are they going to post guards/bouncers at the restrooms? Install ID readers? And why sin't there the same uproar about transmen in the men's room?

Honestly, I believe that most guys wouldn't particularly care if a transman used the men's room. What is it about 'women' that makes them so worried about transwomen? In fact, why are men so worried about transwomen?

Continuing on that thought, based on my interactions with men, technically as a man, men don't seem to 'trip' on transmen as much as they do upon transwomen.

Perhaps the men would be worried they could end up on a date with a transwoman?

This could be a very interesting discussion, and educational as well.....

**hugs**

-Fiona

[Guest Plaid Chameleon]

I'm not reffering to Miami-Dade, I'm reffering to something called HB 583 which according to what I've read, if passed will overide any currently existing protections based on city legislature. It's already gone through two votes and is up for another soon. If it goes into affect, it means that anyone who does not have their ID changed and full recronstruction done will be facing up to 60 days in prison and a 500$ fine. It also asserts that any buisness caught allowing trans people to use the restrooms that do not match their biological sex can face charges. This is also going on in Texas right now and Kentucky just passed something very similiar about students in highschool not being able to use affirmed restrooms. Considering I have neither the money nor the assests to obtain any kind of therapy or surgey at the moment, this is a serious concern. There are all these petitions going around about it, and Equality Florida is all over it, but it's still kinda scary to think it might actually pass. Hopefully it won't.

[Drea]

Hmmmm. So are they going to post guards/bouncers at the restrooms? Install ID readers? And why sin't there the same uproar about transmen in the men's room?

Of course not, the expectation has always been that men should use men's room and women should use women's room. Expectation that there was some force of law behind it. Well there never was, so creating it now isn't going to change how it was ever dealt with.

Honestly, I believe that most guys wouldn't particularly care if a transman used the men's room. What is it about 'women' that makes them so worried about transwomen? In fact, why are men so worried about transwomen?

Of course nobody is particularly worried about guys getting sexually assaulted using men's room. Not from women.

The concern isn't trans women. It is the law trans advocates push has language that would allow any man found in ladies room to assert he is a woman. If the law allowed trans women but still barred men there would only be a fraction of the concern. But you see the trans community seems to deny that no man would ever mis-represent himself, exploit the laws intended to allow trans people. And there is a total denial that it is even a serious concern that a guy would loiter around in ladies room to commit rape. That it is an irrational fear women have.

Yet, just this past week there was a guy hiding in a ladies room who raped a woman. By the Miami-Dade law if police had discovered him in the ladies room he could say he is a woman and they couldn't do anything about it, couldn't even ask him to leave.

As long as the trans community insists that the laws include people who aren't changing gender roles, push laws that would also allow men and vehemently argue against any protection against exploitation (such as including consistent and persistent gender identification or requiring at least a therapist sign off) it just makes it look like the real agenda isn't to support the medical need of those transitioning, but rather the agenda is something different. And making the definition so wide as to include men among trans women it just feeds the assertion that trans women are really just men. I argue that trans women are so different than men that it is a trivial matter making the legal distinction.

I'm not reffering to Miami-Dade, I'm reffering to something called HB 583 which according to what I've read, if passed will overide any currently existing protections based on city legislature.

yes, that was what I was mentioning.

... and full recronstruction done ..

No, that is a false characterization by the actual language I have read in the latest form of the bill. Maybe earlier on it had that, but not as a couple weeks ago.

[Carolyn Marie]

Yet, just this past week there was a guy hiding in a ladies room who raped a woman. By the Miami-Dade law if police had discovered him in the ladies room he could say he is a woman and they couldn't do anything about it, couldn't even ask him to leave.

Come on, Drea, you know that isn't correct. I know of no state in the country where a man loitering in a woman's restroom wouldn't be breaking one law or another. If there was evidence of an intent to commit a felony, it wouldn't matter if it was a man or a woman. And of course, no transwoman, transman or cis-man claiming to be a transwoman, who commits or attempts a rape, is going to be able to use a restroom access bill as an excuse. There are plenty of good arguments one can make on either side without resorting to hyperbole.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest]

Drea

Yet, just this past week there was a guy hiding in a ladies room who raped a woman. By the Miami-Dade law if police had discovered him in the ladies room he could say he is a woman and they couldn't do anything about it, couldn't even ask him to leave.

First, come on, it's very unrealistic for a guy in guy mode to assert trans.

But more to the point, rape/molestation is already a crime. Why push it farther? How often has a guy dressed as a woman assaulted a woman in a restroom? Let's be realistic and go after actual rapists.

It's totally legal for a male to assist a disabled female in the restroom. What's to stop a male/female team from hanging out in the restroom? We shouldn't be making laws for something that happens ever so often, in the terms of this discussion. Again, the crime is rape, not a man dressed as a woman, using the ladies room.

People complicate things far too much.

[Guest LizMarie]

Yet Carolyn, hyperbole is all that the opponents have in this case. Hyperbole that is not backed by factual statistics. And this was a guy, dressed as a guy. And did existing laws stop him? Noooo.

So all the opponents have left is hyperbole, exaggeration, fear mongering, and lies.

Now here is the actual link to HB 583. http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Documents/loaddoc.aspx?FileName=_h0583__.docx&DocumentType=Bill&BillNumber=0583&Session=2015

Page 2, section 2, 760.55, 1(d) states:

(d) "Sex" means a person's biological sex, either male or 49 female, at birth. For purposes of this paragraph, the term 50 "male" means a person born as a biological male and the term 51 "female" means a person born as a biological female.

There is no exemption for those having changed their ids. That is flat out wrong and is complete misinformation.

If you were born male, then you are in violation of the law for using the women's restroom no matter what ID you present, even a birth certificate.

Now the practicality of this utterly FUD based stupid deceptive and bigoted law is completely open to question.

But this is not a "reasonable" reaction to the Miami Dade Ordinance at all!!

This is out and out attacks on the civil rights of any trans man or trans woman.

Drea, none of the qualifications you claimed exist in the four pages of the bill as currently listed in the Florida Senate. Where did you read such exemptions? Because they are not in the bill today. At all. And the section defining sex is very narrow and rigid.

[Guest]

And this was a guy, dressed as a guy. And did existing laws stop him? Noooo.

THIS!! Thank you Liz! Like I said, there are already laws against rape/molestation, and this punk still committed a crime. Making a new law that prohibits trans from using a restroom will NOT stop a rapist, it simply paints trans-people into a corner.

One thing to keep in mind, laws only keep honest people honest. They do NOT prevent criminals from being criminals. Additional laws become oppressive to law abiding citizens.

[Carolyn Marie]

Here's the latest update. I like the headline. The bill ain't dead yet, but its, um, circling the drain.

Carolyn Marie

[Drea]

No sensible discussion can occur unless one wishes to deal with facts.

The fact is that this statement:

(d) "Sex" means a person's biological sex, either male or 49 female, at birth. For purposes of this paragraph, the term 50 "male" means a person born as a biological male and the term 51 "female" means a person born as a biological female.

Has been completely stricken from the bill. In fact every line after line #14 at the link provided in the prior post has been stricken.

When that first language came out I too said that was a major problem.

There been a few amendments, mostly small but this is the big one that strikes all that text.

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Documents/loaddoc.aspx?FileName=546189.docx&DocumentType=Amendments&BillNumber=0583&Session=2015

So this is how female is defined in the amended version. Male is defined similarly.

(a) "Female" means a biological female or a person who has a valid driver license or United States passport that describes the person as female on the license or passport.

That is very different than the female at birth in original text which rightfully failed. It has problems for some people as I had stated above. I am not saying the Florida bill doesn't have problems. I do think some additional clarification is needed for others presenting part time or full time for medical need be they adult or minor.

On the positive side. The fact that the "birth sex" only standard has been stricken is a big win for trans people.

It also should be noted that what ones birth certificate doesn't in the current definition which again is a plush for trans folk as birth certificate is one of the hardest for many to get changed and often has the highest standards to be changed. The is a plus for those who can't get their birth certificate updated which tends to be the most difficult to get changed for trans people. Not as bad as DD-214.

For those actually transitioning gender roles it mostly isn't going to be an issue especially since Florida does allow changing drivers license without surgery.

Likewise for those changing gender roles, like I pointed out, it actually helps with ones employer.

For part time, for CD, the only allowance seems to be single occupant facilities as those are exempted by the bill as well.

[Guest LizMarie]

Amendment noted. This bill still criminalizes children who have not had id updates, and that usually does not happen right away anyway. As such, the bill still interferes with proper clinical treatment and socialization of transgender children.

[Guest]

No sensible discussion can occur unless one wishes to deal with facts.

So unless we're talking directly about the verbiage in the law, it's not sensible to have a discussion? The fact that laws don't actually protect people from criminals is completely irrelevant?

OK.........

[Guest LizMarie]

Additionally the bill fails to account for carry letters, so it is a further intrusion into established medical practice.

The bill originated as a blatant attempt at fear mongering and at bigotry. It remains severely flawed. It's no "great win" for trans people at all. Hopefully it dies in committee or is blocked from a full vote by someone with more sense.

[Guest Melissa~]

I really don't mind the Florida bill. The basic requirement of a drivers license match is fine (which doesn't require surgery in FL.) About the only restriction this implements applicable to tg people is keeping an actual gender fluid individual from flip-flopping daily. The usual arguments about the underprivileged not being able to change paperwork has no bearing on a person being TG and has more to do with a wider societal issue of the individual being underprivileged.