"normal"?

[Guest Zack L]

I'm sure almost everyone here, if not all of us, have seen that Jacob guy's post. This isn't a continuation of that, but something he said bothered me...

Do cisgendered people see us as weird? Most of my friends don't seem like they do, but what that guy was saying worried me a bit. Empathy allows us to put ourselves in the shoes of others and see things from their point of view. I'm an outlier on this front, as I'm the most empathetic person I, and all my friends, have ever come in contact with. So I just...can't understand the not understanding. ...Wow, that's a little hypocritical I guess. >_< But basically, for most people, if confronting an issue for the first time, do they automatically "otherize" who/whatever is involved in that situation?

If looking at how most people define "normal" that's how someone forms their idea of what's "normal" and what's "weird". If someone can relate to whatever their looking at, it's not weird, if they can't it is. But it also seems that if hat aspect comes into a person's life in another way, the classification in thier mind can shift. Say...a conservative father has a daughter. His entire live he's thought lesbians and gays freaks. But then his daughter comes out as gay. He's angry and tries to rationalize, but usually ends up accepting the truth and adjusting his views on the issue. People don't understand things fully until it touches them personally on some level.

It's interesting to me. I'd like to be an activist some day, and my main strategy of making people understand the truth of things is forcing them with my words to feel what I feel.

And...I've just rambled on, whoops. Okay...post is now about psychology's effects on people's views and actions as it relates to trans stuff, since no one probably wants to say anything about my random ranting. =P

[Sally]

I think that before anyone gets too upset about being called wierd, they should realize that the modern idea of 'normal' was outlined by Sigmund Freud - have you aever read about him?

In the words of Billy Joel, "If that's what it's all about, if that's really moving up - I'm moving out!"

Love ya,

Abby - Normal Sally

[Guest S. Chrissie]

Hmmm....perhaps if we could project their minds into our lives for just 1 day to see how it's like, perhaps they will then fanthom how it feels

Someone come up with a mind projector or something

Sherlyn

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Ranting? No

I get confused is all. It took me forever to understan ME. i mean, what is a transsexual and why am I not a crossdresser on steroids?

Well i know now. And there is such a range of us gender dysphoria it took me a while to get that strait in my mind. Now "cisgendered" what is that?

NORMAL? come on!

I am so label challanged these days!

Lizzy

[Guest Nelly]

Hi,

normal is the average of all abnormal.

It is the same with clothing sizes. You have different sizes and all is accepted. If you count the sizes you get an average size. The surpize, no one will have the average size. So no one is normal.

It is hard to tell, but I think the major part of human mankind is stupid and for stupid people it is hard to understand that something is different to them. They have a ego centric view. All of what they do is normal also if this is totally different to all others. What do you expect from people who are not able to taste a new kind of meal from a different coutry? It is not a big deal to try a new meal and building an opinion. The major part has once tried something and will never ever try it again.

Greetings

Nelly

[Guest Pól_Eire]

The easy question first: cisgendered = non-trans. It's kind of a chemistry joke. You have cis- bonds, where essentially you have two things on the same side, and trans- bonds, where you have your two things kind of caddy corner. Like this:

\ /

=

/ \

cis

\ /

=

/ \

trans

If you think of your two things as mind and body, it makes sense. Ish.

The harder question: "normal"

I'll preface this by saying that this is what I think, but I know it's not "the ANSWER," or even the only way of looking at this. It's simply my opinion.

I think the "normal" that Jacob was referring to (though perhaps in a less objective way), as I understood it, simply referred to "most people." He's correct (to my knowledge, anyway). Most people are not transgendered. People who are not like "most people" are, by definition, "different." "Different" is not a bad thing, in fact it can be a fantastic thing, but "different," used objectively, is a descriptive, non-derogatory term. "Weird" is a different story entirely (yes, that was intended ). I think "weird" is a negative term used by people who find that someone or something that is "different" causes them discomfort or unease.

As a massive generalization, people generally see "different" as "weird" as a default state. That's a kind of defense mechanism and is (I hate to say this) healthy. You're supposed be uncomfortable with things you don't know. If you see a UFO coming flying at you out of the sky, you're not supposed to say "well, I'm ok with that" (I'm deliberately using an extremely silly example, no offense to folks who believe in aliens and UFOs and the like). Unfortunately, this kind of reaction carries over to areas where "well, I'm ok with that" would actually be a better response. In an ideal world, meeting a transperson shouldn't incur the same kind of reaction as a flying UFO. That initial reaction isn't always a completely controllable, conscious thing. That's not to say that it is not the case that sometimes people purposely act incredibly offensively or aggressively towards transpeople, because sometimes that does happen. What I'm trying to say is that people are conditioned to see "different" as "weird," and it can be hard to overcome that default setting initially.

Do cisgendered people see us as weird?

I think that depends on the particular cisgendered person in question. Drawing from my own experiences, I think the ones who get to know us, for the most part, stop seeing us as "weird" and the differences that set us apart from "most people" stop mattering. Personal connection is the most effective way to overcome the default setting that "different"="weird" and transitively that "different" is negative. People's own experiences have the best chance of overriding pyschological conditioning of anything that we could possibly do.

So reach out to people. Connect. Show people that they do not have to be more afraid or even more wary of transpeople than they are of cispeople.

Thoughts? I'll put it out there right now that if you think I'm absolutely wrong and want to call me on every mistake I've made in this post (I'm sure there are many), go ahead. I'm not going be offended. I look forward to agreeing to disagree with someone.

-Pól

[Guest My_Genesis]

uhh...I think I'm missing something here....lol..who's Jacob??

[Guest Zabrak]

uhh...I think I'm missing something here....lol..who's Jacob??

http://www.lauras-playground.com/forums/in...?showtopic=6319

Its six pages long.

[Guest My_Genesis]

http://www.lauras-playground.com/forums/in...?showtopic=6319

Its six pages long.

Well I didn't read through everything entirely but thanks for that

Yeah when people say things like that it really annoys me for a couple reasons...mainly because despite (or due to) being trans I've become incredibly conformist, probably more so than most of the general population. I think this is because I'm just tired of feeling so isolated, "different" (and yes I use that word a lot as well...but I'm not good with words and vocab. ), so to compensate for something that is seen as "different, unique" etc. I conform in every other aspect of my life, and have even become overly obsessive about acting stereotypically male. Just thinking hypothetically here, if I were a biomale, I probably wouldn't be so concerned with my own stereotypical "male behaviors", I probably also would be more flexible with myself in terms of conformity..and wouldn't nearly cringe every time I'd hear the word "unique."

So basically I've become very close-minded and critical of myself, and when people say things like "you aren't normal, you aren't like most people, you're different. you're unique"...well, what I want more than anything is to be considered "normal" and "average", not "different" in the original sense of those words. So I go extra lengths to get as close to that as possible despite being trans, which can be really frustrating sometimes.

To answer the original question lol..I don't really know what I would define as normal, I think everyone has their own normal...and I'm still trying to achieve mine...

So yes when people say things like that it does bother me, and that's probably the worst reaction I could get from telling someone I'm trans, which probably is part of why I have such difficulty discussing this with people...when I just keep picturing that worst-case scenario in my mind...

[Guest Deeedoo]

A lot of people have a natural dislike of things that are different. For example, bugs are completely different from humans, so a lot of people hate them (I don't; I think they're cute!). It's even worse when things are different but they're still somehow similar. People hated me and were horrified by me because of my strange differences and because I'm still technically human. It's the same with transgender people. People who are afraid of differences are even more afraid of you because you are still similar to them. Not all people are like this, but the worst are.

Then, there's people who have been brainwashed. Whether it's religion or something else, they learned "facts" when they were little kids, and those ideas were never removed. Some people believe things so strongly that, even when all evidence is against them, they continue to believe because it would destroy them and break their minds to realize the truth.

By the way, I don't see weird as a bad thing. People try to use it to insult people, but it really means that you're different, and different is good. If there's anything I've learned from my autism, it's that normal means nothing. Be weird and proud! People who use it as an insult to you understand nothing.

[Guest With Faith Or Flames]

What is normal?

[Sally]

By the way, I don't see weird as a bad thing. People try to use it to insult people, but it really means that you're different, and different is good. If there's anything I've learned from my autism, it's that normal means nothing. Be weird and proud! People who use it as an insult to you understand nothing.

What a wonderful way to look at life and be happy!

Thank you Deeedoo for coming to the forums and brightening our days.

You and Skyy make quite a team.

I love having both of you here.

I've always been weird!

I'm mostly Irish, a musician and a photographer* and yet I don't drink!

Talk about weird!

love ya,

Sally

*In the old days photographers used to hide their liquor in the darkroom behind the developer!

[Guest leo]

what most people perseive as 'normal' is what society tells us is

anyone who strays form this is called 'abnormal' and is usually assessed under mental health

basically anyone or anything thats society doesnt agree with is considered crazy

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

The stuff Jacob said in one of his last couple posts got to me too. It kind of haunted me. I kept asking myself "Do people really think I'm weird?"....and it kept on bugging me and bugging me and bugging me. Then I remembered, people have always thought I was odd...even before I came out as trans.

People are "programmed" to like things that are familiar and common. Until TG and gay and lesbian people are integrated into mainstream culture enough that we are familiar, people are probably going to find us "weird". It's all about exposure.

I could explain more, but I have to go to work now. :(

[Guest Elizabeth K]

http://www.lauras-playground.com/forums/in...?showtopic=6319

Its six pages long.

I put this where the admistrators and monitors could read it, but I need to let the membership see it.

Who was Jacob? We aren't sure, at first he seemed ready to try to understand the transgender community, then at the end he reverted to calling us names, "not normal" and such. So he was cut off. It was a HUGE topic. Zab is right - six pages. Statistically:

Jacob posted 16 times

the heavy artillery was brought in

Laura posted very long and well thought out replies - 9 times

MayEllen posted 9 times

Membership

Sally posted 12 long replies

Ains 6

Mia 6

Zab 6

Michelle B 5

Liz 4

Jendar 3

Zack 3

Julia D 3

DJ - Cody - Sakura - Christy - Amanda - Ashley - Bronx - Patrick Lee - Selkia - Irielle - Charlene - Jacci - Pol Eire - S. Chrissie - and April

Almost a hundred replies

AMAZING or what?

So it was an exercise - an experiment by Laura - letting in a person who was not transgender or a family member or partner.

It was good, but quickly got to be tedious. Jacob WAS NOT going to listen to ANYTHING. In his opinion we were not 'normal.' He refused all offers to discuss transgenderism with those here in the membership who could have helped. He really never WANTED to understand.

My opinion? Ww were hurt by him, but he showed us that part of humanity we wish does not exist, the insensitive and uncaring. We don't fit in his idea of a proper world. Unfortunately, it will probably come back to haunt him, as those things usually do. In Wicca we say everything come back to you threefold.

Lizzy

[Guest skyy]

one thing i've learned from Deeedoo over the last year and a half is that wierdness shouldnt be consitered negitive. i see it as proof of a healthy mind. the kind of people who work hard to be perfectly ordinary clones of what is acceptable are the ones that need the most help. yea, we all are freaks, and we are lucky to be so. being freaks is what makes us human. its when people aren't freaks, but lies of an artificial ideal for humans, that they become true "freaks", in their sense of the word. Jacob may have called us freaks, and certainly he isnt the only one, nor the last one who will do so, but in the end it only makes me smile he doesnt understand that, freakishness is only uniqueness and individuality that gives us guidence, wisdom, purpose, and a true appreciation for the good things in life. hope this helps to make you feel better. because you should never feel bad for being your own individual person.

[Sally]

Skyy,

Have you and Deeedoo been lying about your ages?

Aren't you really in your early sixties - I mean you have such insight and wisdom.

I'm supposed to have it (I don't) because I'm old, but you have achieved the wisdom that age is supposed to bring at such an early age.

I think that we should all strive for abnormality and freakiness!

Love ya,

Sally