Autogynephilia

[Guest Billi_G]

I am wondering how you all feel about the topic of autogynephilia as presenting in most late transitioning MtF heterosexual (before transition).

Personally, it describes me to at tee. I have read Anne Lawrence's book "Men trapped in Men's Bodies". I have progressed from cross-dressing from age 10 through wanting a female body at age 49. My story pretty much mirrors Bruce Jenner's interview except that I never won a gold medal (LOL). But the one thing that disappointed me (although I am not surprised) is that very little of the interview was directed at Bruce's sexual orientation and what motivated him beyond "feminine essence" to pursue transition. It is my opinion that he may have been sexually aroused by dressing in women's clothing. I also believe that continued into adulthood progressing to becoming aroused by the thought of becoming a woman. How do I know this? Because EVERY single thing in the interview described me except for this one little detail he left out. Not only that, but countless people describe these kind of sexual feelings in addition to narrative that Bruce laid out.

People, we need to discuss this. I am at the cusp of transitioning myself and I am digging deep to not buy in to the politically correct narrative of 100% feminine essence. I know there is evidence to prove it. I just don't think it is responsible for ALL of it being the single driver for Heterosexual Mtf late transitioners as myself...and Bruce.

I'd be VERY surprised to find that he NEVER masturbated while dressed and NEVER masturbated while imagining himself as a woman.

If this is found to be a valid phenomenon in the Late transitioning heterosexual MtF I am perplexed about what it could mean for treatment options. I think a lot of people avoid talking about it thinking it excludes you from being transgender at all.

Anyone else self gratification while dressed or while imagining themselves as a woman? Does anyone get excited when they call you Ma'am? experiences please....

[Charlize]

I certainly did self gratify when dressed. Whether it was the excitement or just a feeling that i could let go and enjoy being me i could not say. I know that as i dressed more often and started to move into the world even on short trips those sexual feelings faded into the background. At this point perhaps due to age or HRT i rarely have any sexual desires. Dressing as myself is just how i dress. there are some clothes i feel better in and some that make me feel sexy. That feeling of sexy is different now. I feel myself desirable while at the same time sex is not an object.

I would think that Bruce Jenner would not want to discuss these issues on TV. There is so much sensationalism already. I can only imagine how this would inflame the public.

This is certainly not an issue i would willingly share with society as well. I'm past the shame i often felt as a child but i prefer to keep my life in those regions somewhat private. It is enough to discuss it here with others who have shared similar journeys.

Hugs,

Charlize

[Guest Billi_G]

Thanks Charlize,

You know...you are right. IF Bruce did reveal Autogynephilia as a primary phenomenon in his transition, the media would have ONLY reported on that, huh? It would have been the most sensational part of the interview. I am very grateful Bruce did the interview and the exposure transgender people got from it. Perhaps he did a sensational thing in the most reserved and responsible manner possible. I hadn't thought it through all the way.

Thanks!

[Guest Razilee]

I took hormones for a short time, but I wouldn't say I pursued transition. It was more like I played with the idea. The cost, the commitment, the side effects and the lack of noticable results at my age (or Bruce's) gave me second thoughts. I too wondered what compelled him to do it. It was more than the fame and fortune she'll be getting. I've read extensively about autogynophilia because it did seem to fit me pretty well. I like myself better presenting myself as female than I do as a male, but I'm reluctant to make any irreversable change to my body. I confess that I have been aroused when crossdressed, but I also have been aroused dressed as male, and aroused naked. It seemed to be just a phase in my foolish youth that passed very quickly, while the autgynophila never fades completely. I doubt very much if anyone is !00% anything. People are much too complex of creatures. Each person is unique, so categorizing anyone is pretty futile. Right now I'm identifying as gynoromantic asexual genderqueer.

As I changed my profile photo today I do like what I see. It's a way of expressing something inside that needs to get out, but it's not all that I am. I'd say I'm "pleased" rather that "excited" when someone calls me "ma'm", because it means that my inner woman touched the outside world, but the last time I got aroused was years ago now (maybe it's the decline in testosterone with age) was when the most attractive woman, a redhead naturally, that I'd ever met showed an interest in me.

O. K., now the ball is in someone else's court,

Raz

[Guest Kate]

Billi

There is nothing wrong with Autogynophellia in and of itself but it is frequently used as a weapon to deny trans women's sexuality. As a female I enjoy imagining myself as such in sexual situations just like any other woman would. As a trans woman though, by admitting that fact I risk being labeled as a fetishist and having my womanhood denied simply for enjoying my female sexuality. No one tells cis women they are any less of a woman for enjoying feeling feminine and sexy, why is it any different for us?

Kate

[Guest April63]

I've never been aroused by the idea of being a woman. I've never been aroused by wearing women's clothes.

I don't think everyone is autogynephilic.

April

[Guest Billi_G]

Hi April,

I agree with you. Everyone is not autogynephilic. I know there are plenty of young transsexuals who have felt female from a very early age, are attracted to men, and displayed early signs of being transgendered. I was describing a subset of transsexuals who are late transitioning over 40 and have presented as heterosexual males for most of their lives.

That said I DO hate categorizing. I think everyone is in a category of 1 on the gender spectrum! LOL

[Guest April63]

Yes, I noticed you were referring to that, but there are a lot of stories here about people transitioning later that begin with their feelings earlier in life. I guess my point is, I don't think that the fact they transitioned later means they're autogynephilic. People chose to or not to transition for a variety of reasons. Many people think that society's greater acceptance and the abundance of resources today is part of the reason that so many of us transition at younger ages. Had these things been available in the past, many people who transitioned later might have done so at younger ages. So, I don't think we can infer that they, Bruce Jenner included, transitioned later only because of autogynephilia.

April

[VickySGV]

Those of us who are "late life transitioners" need to get together and toss "autogynephoolia" into the same medical quack trash that Conversion therapy needs to go into. The main reason is that it attempts to link Gender Dysphoria, a condition involving personal identity to perceived sexuality. The two are miles apart. The Gender Dysphoric person was trapped in a body defined for them by family and society and given an identity by the same people. The point is that the GD person was given no room to be a person.who was not a sex machine or sex object. Some people get "turned on" by smelling vulture vomit but they do not want sex with the stuff. Yes, I am EXTREMELY disgusted by the concept, and I know full well the damage the idea did to my life. Without the "autogonenooddlia" it is very likely that I could have faced my GD for what it was, instead of coming close to killing me, before I could accept that I needed to be who I am today. The idea is the reason that a large chunk of my remaining family is not talking to me.

Jenner did not bring it up because his therapy team has seen no evidence of that folderol in Jenners life, and Sawyer and the 20/20 news writers knew enough to not even get close to it.

[Guest Billi_G]

OK, maybe Bruce isn't an Autogynephiliac. My bad for making the comparison. I have no idea of knowing whether he is or isn't.

I do have it though. I get aroused when I dress, and I get aroused when I think of myself as a woman. Not all the time. I don't walk around with a hard on wearing a dress. In fact, I have never gotten excited while out in public, ever! I am usually just doing my thing like everyone else. When I am at home late at night...that's when it occurs.

I'm just trying to understand what it means for my transition that's all. I know I am not the only one.

I am sorry your family has given you problems because they believe your sexuality is tied to this theory if it is not. I am not even sure it should be defined as that anyway. I don't like feeling like part of my behavior is a sexual deviant identity problem...(target location error) because that is how it comes across to some people. We could pick apart the definition of the theory piece by piece, but I know that I get aroused by the thought of myself as female. If that makes me deviant or not a transsexual, I don't know. It is what it is.

[Guest Lizzie McTrucker]

Just as a side comment from your original post: sexual orientation and gender identity are totally different. Sawyer wasn't concerned with Jenner's sexual orientation, her focus was on his gender identity.

[Charlize]

Vicky you hit upon a big thing for me. I was ashamed of my thoughts and desires to be female and as puberty with the need for relief came the two became tied together in ways they never should have been tied. The even bigger shame i felt was one reason i could never come out. It seemed everything that seemed "right" for me was wrong by societies standards. Only time in sobriety with a 12 steep program could allow me to be rigorously honest with the world and most importantly myself.

Hugs,

Charlize

[Guest Raya]

I am transitioning late in life, and am glad that I am now able to perceive myself as feminine without tying that image to sexuality. During 40 years of self repression, I expressed my femme self thru sexuality, as kinky.

I find now that my expression is more

hmm..holistic? in that I am working on more and different aspects of expressing me- voice, face, hair, etc. These aspects meant nothing to me previously when my femininity was confined solely to the bedroom. You could say I'm working on the outerwear, not the underwear.

It seems like I'm more asexual, with less of the stereotypically male gonad driven life. I like it better now.

Ps; this is just me- to anyone who wants to "do it just for kicks", I say have fun!

[Guest Kaylee]

You know,

Over the last year, I have thought about this in great depth, and what I have come up with… seems rather simple, and makes the “Autogynephilia“ theory for trans-folks pretty absurd!

I am a woman! I may have been born male and grown up male... but I am a woman! Does a cis-woman feel sexy if she thinks of herself as a man? Would a cis-man feel sexy if he thought of himself as a woman? Knowing intimately about GD as most of us do on this site, you know there is a disconnect between mind and body. Cis folks don’t have that issue, so would you ever think of a cis person who was self gratifying as having a “fetish” because they are thinking of themselves as a sexy version of the gender they are? Of course not!

On any normal day, you might go out and do whatever… shop, work etc… and not think about your gender. After all… we have to live, and like anything else… we just carry on. In the home… or the bedroom though…. people want to feel sexy… thus the glory of being home he he!

I started my transition at 40. I have had relationships, and been with women…. Though I have never orgasmed during normal intercourse. I obliged the women I was with… but always felt like a chore to me.

Have I ever pleasured myself while dressed as a woman… YES! But autogynephilia does not apply because I am only imagining myself as the gender that I truly am. I may wear something sexy, or imagine a sexual encounter with me in a feminine role…. But that is who I am. I am a woman…

I don’t get aroused because I’m dressed in womens clothing… I get aroused as any woman does, because how I feel about myself while wearing that clothing. Feeling sexy in your own skin... is not a fetish

In regards to Bruce Jenner… it’s no ones business how he feels or what he thinks during a sexual encounter (self included)… so why would that ever come up?

Just my thoughts!

Hugs,

Kay

[StephanieVikingGirl]

Hi Billi,

I had not heard the term autogynephiliac before, oh well. Now that I know what it means, well I did imagine myself as a woman having sex with a nice guy whenever I masturbated. I always kinda did that. I was usually naked when doing that though. I didn't crossdress much at all. I did try some clothes on as a kid, and a few times when married as well, but it disturbed me that the clothes didn't fit. Later on I wore sarongs, and skirts at Pagan festivals, and also sometimes kilts when I could get away with it in public. I guess that I didn't self gratification while dressed since I did not like the way I looked. I hated looking like a guy in a dress.

I did occasionally tuck while in the bath, or shower, and I tried to imagine what I would look like as a girl. Later when I had pec muscles, I tried to push them together to see what it would look like to have boobs. I did this all my life; until recently of course. This pleased me, but I didn't self gratification while doing so.

I did always get turned on by sex scenes in movies. I always imagined myself as the woman in the scene. I guess that I am a visual to some degree.

I am certain that if I had grown up in this more tolerant age, I would have transitioned when I was much younger. It was a world of ignorance, and intolerance when I grew up in Maryland back in the sixties, and seventies. I think that my sexual fantasies were not much different from other young women, and yes I read lots of naughty romance novels as well. Now that I am living as an adult woman, I have a nice boyfriend, and I live a kinda heterosexual lifestyle. Thanks to Alex, I have a nice sex life, and thanks to all the nice folks at work I am full time living as myself. Totally groovy! I am a bit euphoric today since I (along with all the other Napa Valley Bike Tour guides) got a raise yesterday. Off topic, but important to me so I thought I would share.

hugs,

Stephanie

[Guest]

I encourage you to read Whipping Girl and or look up Kristens Trans Life on YouTube. They both do a phenomenal job of explaining why it's such a harmful theory. Aside from autogynephilia having dubious origins as a theory the so called symptoms of it are exactly what you'd expect coming from a trans women who has completely hidden her identity and who's only outlet is through that.

Humans are sexual beings. Women are sexual beings. Women dress up in lingerie and get aroused or self gratify yet they aren't pathologized. Trans women are women and also before Hrt have a ton of testosterone going through their system just raising their libido. Trans women are raised from little on taught to be completely ashamed of themselves and to hide everything about themselves. The only time they are in private and can imagine themselves as themselves is probably when they also have the opportunity to beat off. It's exciting and forbidden and mysticized by a highly sexist culture. We take all that shame and internalize it and turn it into the best love of our lives as a way to escape (Julia Serranos words not mine). And what do you know when you are able to remove that shame and bring in acceptance and begin to live as yourself almost all of that goes away.

Autogynephilia is useful in the sense in observes a certain phonemenon but then just makes up reasoning. Furthermore it asserts that ALL Trans lesbians are actually autogynephiliac and that every single one is transitioning for primarily sexual reasons. It ignores that many cis women have similar behaviors as well as Trans men (in reverse) but doesn't pathologize either of them. And while the proponents insist that it does not mean MEN with autogynephilia shouldn't transition the subtext is entirely that anyone who is attracted to the idea of themselves as a woman ever is not Trans, not a woman, and really just a person with a screwed up sexuality. It's a theory used specifically to disparage A certain subset of trans women by insisting they're really men and reducing their dysphoria to a fetish.

Sexuality is inseparable from our own bodies. There's a big difference between liking women as a straight male and a gay woman. It's not at all surprising that a human, a sexual being, would need to feel like or prefer feeling like their internal gender in order to get off.

[StephanieVikingGirl]

Thanks Kira,

I had really never heard of autogynephilia before this thread, although my memories from my previous life are getting a bit spotty so I can't be completely sure. In any case I really flip flopped on my sexuality while on HRT. I sort of wasn't completely surprised though since my sexual fantasies involved being turned into a woman (usually magically or sci-fi style), and then as a woman having sex with a nice guy. I think that was why romance novels, and films with well developed female characters who had sex scenes in the film were really effective at turning me on. I now have no real sex drive, but when Alex wants to play, well it is amazing. Thanks again Kira for explaining this theory, and how some folks use it to put us in a category wherein we don't belong.

hugs,

Stephanie

[Guest Raya]

Thank you for the info, Kira

[Guest Billi_G]

THanks for the info Kira, I'll check that out. *takin it all in, digesting, assimilating* LOL

[Guest]

I tried to figure what all this is about. OK I'm a dumb blonde but not that dumb. Webster phone app won't even bring up the word. I march in lock step with so many women replying here.

I'll try to answer a few facets of your questions, most of my info is a "nun ya" and here I'm a walking exposé. So here goes:

I'm intersexed and one could say I'm transitioning later in life. We biological female males blow a whole bunch of holes in the psychobabble about what we should or should not be. That's why we never even get a make-mention. I have been transitioning all of my life, I just didn't have a way to make all the pieces fit.

When I dressed as a teenager I got an erection while dressing. I got several throughout the day and night, anywhere, anytime, whatever I was wearing, even a stiff breeze would do it. So I can throw that idea out. As I dressed at various times throughout my life wearing the correct clothes was as more for comfort and self acceptance than sexual, but of course I may be correctly dressed and want sex. Again, apples and oranges.

After I hit my gender wall and all my medical discoveries made it all make sense. I'm a female, excuse me while I act like a girl. Yes I'm still prolific so sex has no autosomethingorother to do with it.

I don't have a partner so I fly solo. They have some label for that too. In some ways I don't mind because it's clean, safe and I know exactly how to adjust all the fireworks controls. Heck yes I miss the soft touch and warm toes of others. One day I will invite someone to my party, but it won't be the postman. I'm not a postage stamp so you can't lick me, stick me and send me on my way. I don't fly that way.

Yesterday, if you must know, I had sex with clothes on, though it is harder to get to all the buttons. Today I was in my birthday suit. If I put male clothes on I would not get an erection. I'm not aroused when I'm vomiting. Yes going ah drab literally makes me physically ill. Best not go there Jody, so I don't.

At the end of the day, the final analysis is; I am completely normal. All the sick pontificators have the problem.

Given a trade to your situation, I would enjoy my pretty new dress and my woody and not try to mess up either one. Seems like all the extra brain burning and comparing may be taking you away from good sex. That is my unqualified opinion. Hug. JodyAnn

[Guest Lizzie McTrucker]

Kira, that was a fantastic response and critique of the theory. I kind of wish this site had a "Like" button for responses such as yours. Very well done!

[Guest]

Kira, that was a fantastic response and critique of the theory. I kind of wish this site had a "Like" button for responses such as yours. Very well done!

Like

[Guest Billi_G]

This is great info. I am starting to understand why Transgender people might bristle at the term autogynephilia.

First I could not deny that there was a phenomenon of me getting excited just as described in the theory. It still holds true.

But drawing a conclusion is that autogynephilia IS my sexual orientation is absurd after reading the material you suggested. Now I see why the term itself is problematic. It DOES NOT just describe a phenomenon of sexual gratification from dressing or the thought of being a woman. It defines it as a sexual orientation as well.

My sex drive is not directed at clothing or vaginas. I am sexually oriented towards women. I have a wife, 4 kids. I love women. I have a healthy relationship with a woman.

My use of this term since it came directly from THESE researchers would suggest that I agree with all the tenets of that theory when in fact I was just describing my sexual experiences while dressed or imagining myself as a woman.

I think there needs to be a different term altogether then.

As you pointed out, people get turned on by all kinds of different THINGS and THOUGHTS, but we don't append "philia" on the end of every one and then sex THAT is also their sexual orientation. I know guys that get turned on by painted toes. They love women, but what really makes them excited is seeing red toe nails. Redtoenailphilia??? wow, why didn't i see it before. Thanks for shining the light.

GOT IT! Great discussion. Now, I will get back to reading on this.

[Cyndee]

I really don't care about Autogynawhatyacallit, but I will say this...

I have met Dr Anne Lawrence in real life, she is not the evil twisted person that some prominent transwomen would like you to believe. She gets a bad rap. It's crap like this that tells me what can go wrong. Dr Lawrence knows more about vaginas than just anybody on the planet, I respect her knowledge and vast experience. She just happens to believe that humans are sexual beings and that gender identity and a human sex drive do and can work together at times, even if seperate (what a concept).

C -

[Guest Syd_UK]

well, i cant speak for Bruce Jenner or anyone else and alot of this goes over my head... im not very intellectual. i had never heard the term but...

im a guy in a womans body... and i get turned on by wearing womens clothes and makeup.. and female toiletries.. im a very sexual person and im quite kinky. without going into huge detail ive got a large range of kinks. but i wouldnt say wearing womens clothes was really that kinky to be honest.. its just kind of fun for me i think and anyway the Romans used to wear skirts and so on apparently.. lol... but yeh i love womens clothes. thats why i feel kind of annoyed that i might have to "live as a man" and be very butch in order to get hormones.

um. its just part of my life. i was always made to feel ashamed of my sexuality but for me thats part of the fun. not then of course but now i quite enjoy feeling ashamed

i dont really get turned on by wearing mens clothes especially. but i feel more myself. im bisexual and i would like a girlfriend or something but, i already have a boyfriend and i dont want to hurt him or hurt a woman's feelings and i have huge confidence issues etc.

erm. but yeh im into a huge range of things both sexual and otherwise, i think as long as you arent doing anything illegal then its perfectly healthy. i feel like im expressing myself. i think its up to the individual, sometimes i will talk very explicitly but im not the type to undress in public and im much more shy than people realise, especially with women.