A genuine question for trans feminists

[Flint]

There is something I struggle to understand, from a non-feminists Point of view. So I figured who better to ask than other trans people who are feminists?

How do you reconcile your transition while believing that gender is a social construct?

How can this feminist theory coexist with transsexuals?

[Guest Charlotte J.]

I may post a longer, more personal answer later, but right now I'll just mention that if this is something you're really curious about, you should read Whipping Girl by Julia Serano.

http://www.juliaserano.com/whippinggirl.html

[Guest]

how you express your gender is a social construct. Since the start of my puberty I was depressed and suicidal. Now, I don't know all the science behind that. But, I was in a prison, a social construct, that was the way you're supposed to express "male". I faked that construct for 3 decades by following stereotypical behavior from sexual orientation to the way I dress. To me, my transition is about getting rid of that construct, freeing myself from that social construct because it's just not right for me, for my tastes. It's about being myself, doing things for m and not feeling verrrryyyy fake.

Now, to me, there's a second aspect to transition. It's a chemical aspect, the way my brain works. It's not about taste at all, nor the social construct. Because even if I was free from the social construct, the anxiety and the depression was still there. When I was alone at home at being free from a social construct was kind of not important, I was still very depressed. Now that's when hormones comes into play. As I said, I just don't know about all the science behind that but for me hormones made a big change. It's more then the social construct, the role you play or the way you express yourself. It's about waking up in the morning and washing dishes and realizing you're being happy. You feel it in your mind, the depression is gone. That's what hormones have done for me. I was always depressed and now I can be very sad but the next day I bounce and you know what, no depression.

Before the hormones I was feeling "neutral" or depressed even in the most happy of times. It was a chemical thing in my brain... I feel I could, with hormones, play the male and be relatively happy. But why would I do that, yes I like a lot of what our society see as male but I also like a lot of things our society see as female. I identify as a girl since my oldest memories and I feel I deserve, at this point of my life, to really be myself and put makeup on if I feel like it.... while cooking on a BBQ, after I fixed my computer myself. Why not?

that's my point of view,

that's not entirely based on science,

that's only the way I feel and that fits with what science I do know

[Guest Mickey]

I see feminism more as women, being women, and being equal at the same time. And that covers the whole range of women. From the super femme, makeup always perfect, hair always perfect, always super girly, kinda woman. To the super butch women, that abhor makeup and dresses. And all being equal. Same pay, same benefits same everything. Equal. And that is true feminism.

[Guest Clair Dufour]

Part of the reason I am a crossdresser is that I am also a feminist. A lot of men are feminists. These "gender social constructs" enslave men as much as women. Gender is relative to the people around you. Men and women are equal in all tasks save one. These days, there are a good number of stay at home dads, at least part time, who take care of the kids and the house and they don't need a frock to feel their gender role. Neither do women for that matter. Here you can go to the market and not see even one woman in a dress and heels. Just after work being the exception as some still must dress for their employment. I like male things and I like female things just like a good number here who have transisitioned do. Just like people outside the LGBT community do.

[Guest Charlotte J.]

To add to what's already been said, all of which I agree with:

I don't need to believe that gender is a social construct to be a feminist. I am a feminist because I believe that women are powerful, that they have been marginalized and oppressed historically, and that marginalization and oppression continues today. I am a feminist because I work against misogyny.

Similarly, I don't need to believe that gender is biological to be trans. I am trans because I feel constrained by gender roles--which we could put in the category of social construction, right? Like soliloque, I express my femininity as a way to free myself from gender expectations. And when I embrace my femininity, I see myself working against misogyny. So for me being trans and being a feminist are intertwined.

Flint, maybe the reason that you have struggled to understand how trans folk can be feminist is because you've mistakenly believed that feminism requires one believe that gender is a social construct. It doesn't; certain flavors of feminism might, but feminism is not a monolothic entity. Let go of the idea that there is one feminism. There are multiple feminisms. Just like there is no one way to be trans, there's no one way to be a feminist.

Also, I think to reduce gender to either biological or socially constructed is simplistic. It's both. And there are more than two genders.

[Flint]

I'm not going to debate feminism in general. I was just curious how people reconciled the theory and their gender identity.

"I am trans because I feel constrained by gender roles--which we could put in the category of social construction, right?" but doesn't that mean this is a choice. I mean to say you're transitioning because of 'constrained' gender roles doesn't make sense to me. Because transitioning from one gender to the other for that purpose seems like the wrong way to go about it, since you're constraining yourself in the opposite direction?

Like i say, i don't wish to debate the topic of feminism in general, I just wish to hear how people reconcile that common feminist theory with their transition and each to their own at the end of the day.

[Guest Charlotte J.]

Maybe the best way to think about it in my case is this: I am not "transitioning from one gender to another", but becoming more fully myself. To be more fully myself, I express my femininity. Expressing my femininity is also a feminist act, since I'm prioritizing my feminine gender expressions over my assigned male gender identity. I am not, at this point, transsexual. That may clear up some confusion.

We don't need to debate feminism; I'm not really interested in that, either. But I did think it relevant to your questions to point out that not all feminists believe that gender is solely socially constructed.

[JJ]

I considered myself a moderate feminist and still am as far as women's equality etc. But the idea of gender being a social construct just seemed too simplistic and facile an answer to me. Science has now proven that is indeed the case now that we can determine where and to some extent how thoughts arise in the brain. It has shocked many scientists just how much of what they thought socialized gender behavior is actually innate to the brain difference between males and females. Some IS a result of socialization certainly but also some of that is society's way of dealing with innate behavior differences.

Right now we still dont understand fully which is which or why in many cases. But it also does help explain why there are certain similarities between cultures that evolved independently and are not influenced as we are by Roman civilization even after millennia.

In my opinion, when it comes to human behavior, especially something as fundamental and complex as sex and gender, no simple view or statement like "Gender is a social construct"can possibly encompass it.

As a side note-one of the now emerging beliefs is that the rigid gender rules around women evolved because they are more likely than men to be unfaithful in a relationship because for approximately 4 days a month they are attracted to macho type men with high T characteristics while preferring more sensitive and sensitive men the rest of the time as mates. The preference part is scientifically proven. The idea that there are so many limiting and constricting societal rules historically around women because of it is interesting.

A very, very complex issue. Made more so as we are increasingly able to recognize physiological rather than psychological basis for behavior where we couldn't even a handful of years ago.

Johnny

[Flint]

I considered myself a moderate feminist and still am as far as women's equality etc. But the idea of gender being a social construct just seemed too simplistic and facile an answer to me. Science has now proven that is indeed the case now that we can determine where and to some extent how thoughts arise in the brain. It has shocked many scientists just how much of what they thought socialized gender behavior is actually innate to the brain difference between males and females. Some IS a result of socialization certainly but also some of that is society's way of dealing with innate behavior differences.

Right now we still dont understand fully which is which or why in many cases. But it also does help explain why there are certain similarities between cultures that evolved independently and are not influenced as we are by Roman civilization even after millennia.

In my opinion, when it comes to human behavior, especially something as fundamental and complex as sex and gender, no simple view or statement like "Gender is a social construct"can possibly encompass it.

As a side note-one of the now emerging beliefs is that the rigid gender rules around women evolved because they are more likely than men to be unfaithful in a relationship because for approximately 4 days a month they are attracted to macho type men with high T characteristics while preferring more sensitive and sensitive men the rest of the time as mates. The preference part is scientifically proven. The idea that there are so many limiting and constricting societal rules historically around women because of it is interesting.

A very, very complex issue. Made more so as we are increasingly able to recognize physiological rather than psychological basis for behavior where we couldn't even a handful of years ago.

Johnny

Do you have a link to any studies referring to your sentence here "Science has now proven that is indeed the case now that we can determine where and to some extent how thoughts arise in the brain. It has shocked many scientists just how much of what they thought socialized gender behavior is actually innate to the brain difference between males and females"

Also yes the idea that it's a social construt is too simple, so is the idea it's only biology. A good book about this is nature via nurture or nurture via nature can't remember which way round it is now. But biology intereacts with enviroment (nurture) and enviroment interacts with biology. there is no clean cut "Social construct" and "biology" when it comes to behaviour in humans or seemingly in any other animal for that matter.

A lot of feminist rhetoric these days is about the idea of it being a social construct and it seems to me they hardly take a middle ground, it's always a social construct and how dare anyone say ANYTHING is biological when it comes to gender.

It seems to me we're living in times where it's a common held belief our biology reflects our society, I have long said that i suspect much of society reflects our biology.

[Guest Clair Dufour]

The norm is that women in the western world produce 2.5 children with usualy men who plan to be providers and have a 50% divorce rate. Many find themselves in gender shock we they find themselves as both nurtures and providers or shut out of the process.If they didn't, we humans would no be on this planet! But, we are talking here about LGBT people many of whom have never been part of the norm. Many have been in the norm, having kids during or before transition with results ranging for horrible divorce and estrangement to same gender parenting and sometimes primary nurturer-provider role reversal. Much about marriage equality is about gays and lesbians wanting to foster, adopt make their own with AI. In short gender roles give way to parenting. Think, even though medicine could provide it, we have never heard of non-gendered people? All signs of sex and gender removed! Yes, there are gender queer, gender fluid and bi's who have different roles depending which sex their with and of course TG's. All in all, its very complicated in our little percentage of humanity or the majority for that matter. Even if you live in a mud hut, third gender people are there to keep it interesting!

[Flint]

I totally get the idea that you're not transitoning gender, because i'm not changing my gender, I'm trying to be more my gender externally though. But what i struggle to wrap my head around is when people make the suggestion or imply they're transitioning for political purposes "transitioning because i'm a feminist" "transitioning to remove the binary" i don't know if it's a misrepresentation, a misunderstanding on my part or not, but the idea seems troubling to me that some people transition for a political purpose or because of feminism rather than because they have this instinct in their head that translates to feeling trapped in a body of the opposite sex.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

There is something I struggle to understand, from a non-feminists Point of view. So I figured who better to ask than other trans people who are feminists?

How do you reconcile your transition while believing that gender is a social construct?

How can this feminist theory coexist with transsexuals?

Well firstly because I am living an authentic life.. I'm not going around obsessing over clothes acting as though the clothes I wear makes me a woman. Nor do I go around glorifying being treated badly by society (sexism) simply because it validates me as a woman. I am not glorifying the oppression of women as a class in order to validate my self.

Gender roles are a social construct yes, as is fashion. However, as a biologist, the idea that there is not an intrinsic difference between Male and Female irritates the crap out of me. There are intrinsic differences otherwise we wouldn't differentiate between the two on a biological bases. Futhermore even in neuroscience there is evidence that female and male brains are wired differently women have higher levels of hormones that are related to empathy for example. Socially there should be no difference because as stated before this is a construct, however functionally there is a difference. I didn't transition so I could wear pretty dresses, or be talked down to by men with unjustifiably huge egos. The basis of my transition is a biological one, it is my belief that Transsexuality is a medical condition and more of a birth defect and not a situation of simply wishing real hard to be the other gender. How does that reconcile the rest of the "Transgender umbrella" that does not fit into the transsexual category (those with medical needs)... Good question I have no answer for you nor is that even a field of interest for me.

[Flint]

There is something I struggle to understand, from a non-feminists Point of view. So I figured who better to ask than other trans people who are feminists?

How do you reconcile your transition while believing that gender is a social construct?

How can this feminist theory coexist with transsexuals?

Well firstly because I am living an authentic life.. I'm not going around obsessing over clothes acting as though the clothes I wear makes me a woman. Nor do I go around glorifying being treated badly by society (sexism) simply because it validates me as a woman. I am not glorifying the oppression of women as a class in order to validate my self.

Gender roles are a social construct yes, as is fashion. However, as a biologist, the idea that there is not an intrinsic difference between Male and Female irritates the crap out of me. There are intrinsic differences otherwise we wouldn't differentiate between the two on a biological bases. Futhermore even in neuroscience there is evidence that female and male brains are wired differently women have higher levels of hormones that are related to empathy for example. Socially there should be no difference because as stated before this is a construct, however functionally there is a difference. I didn't transition so I could wear pretty dresses, or be talked down to by men with unjustifiably huge egos. The basis of my transition is a biological one, it is my belief that Transsexuality is a medical condition and more of a birth defect and not a situation of simply wishing real hard to be the other gender. How does that reconcile the rest of the "Transgender umbrella" that does not fit into the transsexual category (those with medical needs)... Good question I have no answer for you nor is that even a field of interest for me.

Yes, it is irritating when people try to make out there are no differences.

[Guest Charlotte J.]

I totally get the idea that you're not transitoning gender, because i'm not changing my gender, I'm trying to be more my gender externally though. But what i struggle to wrap my head around is when people make the suggestion or imply they're transitioning for political purposes "transitioning because i'm a feminist" "transitioning to remove the binary" i don't know if it's a misrepresentation, a misunderstanding on my part or not, but the idea seems troubling to me that some people transition for a political purpose or because of feminism rather than because they have this instinct in their head that translates to feeling trapped in a body of the opposite sex.

Well, I suppose I can't help you there. I don't know why someone would transition for the reasons you stated. I only know what's true for me, and that's this: I have a transgender identity and I have political beliefs. Those two things fit together. Neither one causes the other; they are both aspects of who I am.

[Guest Clair Dufour]

I can't grasp the concept of a person tranisitioning to be a feminist for political reasons. Feminists are of both sexes, genders and all sexual preferences. Do you have examples?

Yes, men and women have different biology and brains. But, the can perform the same tasks often by using different methods and time tables. There are studies out there but, doubt much has been done on TG's. Proper training seems to be the key. I have seen small women pull up manhole covers alone and climb telephone poles with spurs. Just need the training and motivation. Being a single mom with kids is great motivation.

[Guest noeleena]

Hi,

What then do you call a person who is nether male or female ,or just to add to this both male and female , does that person really have a gender as such , Im not sure about your feminist so ill leave that out ,

what I do know is our women in the 1860,s to 1920,s got out and told the men we have had had enough of the male rule, slavery non owning of property and not having a mind or say in matters that concerned us and used us for sex and debased us killed us and destroyed us in every way possibile for thier own ends , and theres more,

Womens Sufferage bring any thing to mind ,I doubt the feminists of the 70,s and of today would do what they did and put up with .all of what we had to ,or work towards making life better for women world wide ,

...noeleena...

[Drea]

Flint, I feel.....

I feel, from a mile high perspective, that the simplest answer is that most trans people are simply unaware that such conflict exists. Furthermore humans have a habit of ignoring inconsistencies within themselves and either again don't recognize the inconsistency exists or when it is highlighted provide some rationale but such rational is more justification that doesn't actually address the inconsistency.

Forget the feminism aspect for a moment. Even within the trans community alone the inconsistency exists. As I have observed for my years, trans people frequently speak out against gender stereotypes. Will even bring up that there is nothing wrong for a boy to have girl interests or vice versa. This is typically stated to justify an interest they have which are stereotypically associated with the gender opposite what they identify as. Then the next day they are wrapping themselves in stereotypes. Saying something like how they know they are a girl because when they always liked to play with dolls and do other girl things. Or statements are made about how in their transition they are looking forward to doing things associated with the gender they are transitioning to. As if those things were barred from them if they didn't transition.

Getting back to the feminists thing, I also feel most, at least among MTF, tend to conceptualize feminism as equal rights, no discrimination, equal pay for equal work, etc. Don't understand that feminists have been fighting that there are no innate brain differences that set women apart from men. Then come along trans people with the belief that brain differences are significant. It isn't surprising that some conflict results between the groups.

I can't say I am any less inconsistent. I am human after all. I don't worry much about justifying myself. As such I don't need to rely on gender stereotypes to justify my changing gender roles. It took me a long time to ultimately understand which all the other external stuff, it boils down to the fact that I wanted to. My dysphoria was rooted in the physical comfort with myself. The particular gender role I lived in wasn't of particular importance to me. This sets me apart from some trans people from whom social elements of gender role far outweigh physical distress, but there are others similar to me. Ultimately as I dealt with the physical aspects I decided it would be more convenient to live in the other gender role.

Ultimately I am human with all my inconsistencies and while I prefer to avoid such internal inconsistencies, and like to think I do something about them when I find them. I remain human however and sometimes I enjoy a certain inconsistency too much and just recognize I am inconsistent in that way. At the end of the day I just embrace myself as a human being my inconstancies and all.

[Flint]

Flint, I feel.....

I feel, from a mile high perspective, that the simplest answer is that most trans people are simply unaware that such conflict exists. Furthermore humans have a habit of ignoring inconsistencies within themselves and either again don't recognize the inconsistency exists or when it is highlighted provide some rationale but such rational is more justification that doesn't actually address the inconsistency.

Forget the feminism aspect for a moment. Even within the trans community alone the inconsistency exists. As I have observed for my years, trans people frequently speak out against gender stereotypes. Will even bring up that there is nothing wrong for a boy to have girl interests or vice versa. This is typically stated to justify an interest they have which are stereotypically associated with the gender opposite what they identify as. Then the next day they are wrapping themselves in stereotypes. Saying something like how they know they are a girl because when they always liked to play with dolls and do other girl things. Or statements are made about how in their transition they are looking forward to doing things associated with the gender they are transitioning to. As if those things were barred from them if they didn't transition.

Getting back to the feminists thing, I also feel most, at least among MTF, tend to conceptualize feminism as equal rights, no discrimination, equal pay for equal work, etc. Don't understand that feminists have been fighting that there are no innate brain differences that set women apart from men. Then come along trans people with the belief that brain differences are significant. It isn't surprising that some conflict results between the groups.

I can't say I am any less inconsistent. I am human after all. I don't worry much about justifying myself. As such I don't need to rely on gender stereotypes to justify my changing gender roles. It took me a long time to ultimately understand which all the other external stuff, it boils down to the fact that I wanted to. My dysphoria was rooted in the physical comfort with myself. The particular gender role I lived in wasn't of particular importance to me. This sets me apart from some trans people from whom social elements of gender role far outweigh physical distress, but there are others similar to me. Ultimately as I dealt with the physical aspects I decided it would be more convenient to live in the other gender role.

Ultimately I am human with all my inconsistencies and while I prefer to avoid such internal inconsistencies, and like to think I do something about them when I find them. I remain human however and sometimes I enjoy a certain inconsistency too much and just recognize I am inconsistent in that way. At the end of the day I just embrace myself as a human being my inconstancies and all.

I think this is why i find it hard to get my head around, because for me personally it's about dysphoria and physical distress and I find myself often sitting amongst other trans people and thinking to myself "Wow I don't think we're experiencing the same thing"

Oh i get that it's human for inconsistencies, don't get me wrong. But it just feels like such a massive inconsistency i can't wrap my head around it

[Flint]

Hi,

What then do you call a person who is nether male or female ,or just to add to this both male and female , does that person really have a gender as such , Im not sure about your feminist so ill leave that out ,

what I do know is our women in the 1860,s to 1920,s got out and told the men we have had had enough of the male rule, slavery non owning of property and not having a mind or say in matters that concerned us and used us for sex and debased us killed us and destroyed us in every way possibile for thier own ends , and theres more,

Womens Sufferage bring any thing to mind ,I doubt the feminists of the 70,s and of today would do what they did and put up with .all of what we had to ,or work towards making life better for women world wide ,

...noeleena...

I don't know. I've never experienced feeling 'non' gendered so I can't really speak to that.

[Drea]

My dysphoria was rooted in the physical comfort with myself. The particular gender role I lived in wasn't of particular importance to me. This sets me apart from some trans people from whom social elements of gender role far outweigh physical distress...

I think this is why i find it hard to get my head around, because for me personally it's about dysphoria and physical distress and I find myself often sitting amongst other trans people and thinking to myself "Wow I don't think we're experiencing the same thing"

I believe I extracted that part out of my post you were referring to here.

And I agree with you about wondering if you are experiencing the same thing. My feelingis that in a way we aren't experiencing the same thing.

One can recognize social dysphoria and physical dysphoria as separate entities. One can then draw a circle around both and say it is gender dysphoria. The distinction gets lost and I feel it is an important distinction as the treatments that address one are very different than the treatments that address the other.

I also feel most have some degree of both sorts of dysphoria but one tends to dominate. To reiterate what someone once told me long ago about transitioning, when you do with one issue, other issues that weren't that important then become the new big issue.

So it isn't that uncommon for someone to deal with one and then experience the other. I could have said that when I dealt with the physical issues that the social role was more important. That social dysphoria started to rear its head and that would be true. But I also recognized that in my the social dysphoria wasn't that strong. I could take it or leave it so my choice to change social roles was a choice made out of desire rather than some pressing dysphoric need.

Another thing I have observed is that those with strong physical dysphoria often are quick to recognize how different they are from the majority of trans people form whom social dysphoria is the big thing. Conversly those who experience strong social dysphoria frequently don't recognize how much they differ from those with physical dysphoria and often insist they are no different.

I think each needs their space to address their needs that it is counter productive lumping all together as the community tends to do.

[Guest Charlotte J.]

Thank you, Drea. I think that clarifies a lot.

For me, the social dysphoria is primary--but the more I actively engage with it, the more my physical dysphoria is beginning to manifest, too. But, mine seems to be the direct inverse of what you've described--social and emotional elements are the driving force and stronger than any physical discomfort I feel.

[JJ]

A common development seen here and one I myself experienced is that when one area of dysphoria was addressed-like the social and external physical related dysphoria-then the other feelings of dysphoria which have been sublimated or displaced emerge. Personally I always hated my body but thought it was because I have had non trans related physical challenges which made me feel my body just ever lived up to what I demanded of it. Also have lived in some degree of pain-some times severe-for well over 40 years. But after transition I became aware that I indeed hated my body and it was gender related. Something I would have initially sworn was not so. Now I recognize it and it has emerged I can see that it has been lifelong. I just displaced something I had no way to deal with before. And forgot I had done so. A survival trait among us I suspect.

When I say dysphoria is a single thing I do not mean it doesn't manifest in as many ways as there are trans people or that we do not deal with it in an equal number of ways. But it is very common and possible that once it has been addressed in one way it will manifest in another.

Also Flint here is a link to a wiki article which is a starting point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences

Wiki is not especially reliable but often makes a great place to start finding things that are. And in some things here references and studies are cited it can be useful.

This looks like a better and more comprehensive article. I don't have time to read it thoroughly right now but it seems to echo what the I have read and seen. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/02/men-women-brains-wired-differently.

I first got my information from a science documentary specifically about the differences in brain formation and operation between males and females-trans was not mentioned at all. A year or so later there was another one that stated they had found even greater differences and that it was radically changing what we thought about the interplay of nurture and nature as far as female, male behavior. I then looked up the studies mentioned and read some about them. I didn't write down the names of the documentaries r the studies and apologize that I just don't have time to research it again but it should be fairly easy to find. They were on science channels.

Johnny

[Cyndee]

yes there are major brain differences, and hormones do change your brain.

Feminism exists outside the medical needs of the transsexual.

Yes you can be a feminist and a trans woman it does happen

C -