Weird Question: How To 'become' An Androgyne?

[Guest Kristian]

So... I've always been in the FtM forums up until now because, even though I was born as a girl, I have for a long time considered myself a guy. I just am unsure if it's real like it is for others I've met... or if I'm just nuts. I've never put much value on my feelings, so I tend to think, 'So what if I feel like a guy? After all, I have a vag, and hardly anyone agrees with me.' I was never a stereotypical case in that I wasn't a 'tom boy' as a kid. I had no gross motor coordination, so I became a nerd: science clubs, math clubs, advanced study tracks, reading clubs, yearbook, band... very stereotypical. The thing is: none of those are traditionally 'male' or 'female', you know? So I question myself, and so does everyone else. Plus, I question how much surgery would help me, which seems to be a big 'no no' in the trans community, and understandably so. I just feel like it might be a lose-lose either way: I don't feel right now, but even after surgery, it'll just be a different kind of 'not right', where I'd feel like a knock off or something. Not 'original', you know?

I'm seeing a therapist about this, and because of the things I've said above, she told me today that I should maybe try to identify as Androgynous instead so I could be "in the middle"... like a compromise, you know? Admittedly, I was insulted at first... as if she was saying I could just 'switch' like that. After all, if I could have, I would have already. In some ways, I'm hoping I'm wrong and will be 'normal' inevitably. My family is Conservative Catholic Republican, so me as I am now would never fly. Still, after a while, I thought I was maybe just being stubborn. I just... don't know -how- to do as she asks. I don't identify as an Androgyne. I never have. How do I change how I identify, and if I can do that, why can't I just change to identifying as a 'normal -girl-'? I asked people in the chat, and they were very helpful in pointing me here. I hope you're all not offended by my question, but... if my therapist thinks I should look into it, and the people in the chat think I should to, there must be something to it. I really maybe am just crazy in having thought I was FtM. They also told me to go to the Androgyny chat, so I think I will if I can, but I wanted to ask here, too, to get as many answers as possible. I hope no one's offended. I know it's an unusual request.

Thanks a lot. This is bothering me a lot that I don't know how to manage this...

[Guest Conrí]

I just... don't know -how- to do as she asks. I don't identify as an Androgyne. I never have. How do I change how I identify, and if I can do that, why can't I just change to identifying as a 'normal -girl-'?

You can't change what you are. The way I see it, identifying as something else is more about coming to a different understanding about who you are.

Personally, I have changed how I identified - but that change reflects my understanding of myself. Before I questioned my gender - I identified as a girl. Then there was a period of not knowing how to identify. At a point, I started identifying as FtM and wanted to transition (wanting to live full time, get hormones, and top surgery - I never wanted bottom surgery). Then I started identifying in the non-binary, trying to find something that actually fit me. Right now, I identify as neutrois again. Through it all, I'm not really changing who I am, I'm more trying to understand myself better.

[Guest mia 1]

I don't identify as an Androgyne. I never have. How do I change how I identify, and if I can do that, why can't I just change to identifying as a 'normal -girl-'? I asked people in the chat, and they were very helpful in pointing me here. I hope you're all not offended by my question, but... if my therapist thinks I should look into it, and the people in the chat think I should to, there must be something to it. I really maybe am just crazy in having thought I was FtM. They also told me to go to the Androgyny chat, so I think I will if I can, but I wanted to ask here, too, to get as many answers as possible. I hope no one's offended. I know it's an unusual request.

Thanks a lot. This is bothering me a lot that I don't know how to manage this...

You can't put your hand on a rock look up at the sky and say "I...state your name" am an androgyn...it's not like being sworn in as a deputy looking for Black Bart. You are what you are and you know best...keep following your heart and it will lead you to the correct concluiosn...I have a pretty darn good idea but I ain't saying.....think of your name beginning with a "C" instead of a "K' and that may help...hint...hint....

[Guest Irielle]

So... I've always been in the FtM forums up until now because, even though I was born as a girl, I have for a long time considered myself a guy. I just am unsure if it's real like it is for others I've met... or if I'm just nuts.

Hi Kristian, I saw your post and thought I'd reply. I was born a guy and ever since I was small knew I should have been born a girl and consider myself as much female as I am male. You are not nuts.

I've never put much value on my feelings, so I tend to think, 'So what if I feel like a guy? After all, I have a vag, and hardly anyone agrees with me.' I was never a stereotypical case in that I wasn't a 'tom boy' as a kid. I had no gross motor coordination, so I became a nerd: science clubs, math clubs, advanced study tracks, reading clubs, yearbook, band... very stereotypical. The thing is: none of those are traditionally 'male' or 'female', you know? So I question myself, and so does everyone else.

It's interesting because I did many of the same sorts of things you did in school. I was never really totally 'girly' but always had some femininity about me and people did notice. I got teased but I did enough 'guy' things that it kind of evened out and I was pretty much a loner so I didn't pay too much attention. One difference between us, though, is that I put great emphasis upon my feelings - more than I do on my intellect. I am still always questioning myself.

Plus, I question how much surgery would help me, which seems to be a big 'no no' in the trans community, and understandably so. I just feel like it might be a lose-lose either way: I don't feel right now, but even after surgery, it'll just be a different kind of 'not right', where I'd feel like a knock off or something. Not 'original', you know?

Yup, I feel the same way about myself. I was born in the wrong body, I should have been born a genetic girl instead of a boy. But even if I were physically a girl I would still be in the wrong body - just not quite as wrong as it is now. I am comfortable enough being a boy that I don't think I'll change. My ideal body would be both boy and girl at the same time.

I'm seeing a therapist about this, and because of the things I've said above, she told me today that I should maybe try to identify as Androgynous instead so I could be "in the middle"... like a compromise, you know?

If you haven't guessed by now, I am androgynous. But I don't think of myself as being "in the middle" and it definitely is NOT a compromise. I think it's a mistake to think that way. I am a third gender; I have both male and female in me but am not entirely either one. Having both in me makes me different from being either one but I'm not sure how to explain it. My mental picture is that my gender is a huge cloud made up of both male and female mixed together and I float around in that cloud. The male and female parts of the cloud mix together and make me who I am and with my gender I am always more female than male. I am not a compromised male nor a compromised female, I am just me.

Admittedly, I was insulted at first... as if she was saying I could just 'switch' like that. After all, if I could have, I would have already. In some ways, I'm hoping I'm wrong and will be 'normal' inevitably.

I don't think it's a question of 'switching', it's a matter of finding out who you really are and becoming that person. Whoever you turn out to be is absolutely normal for you, no matter who that is. Don't make other peoples' standards your own.

My family is Conservative Catholic Republican, so me as I am now would never fly. Still, after a while, I thought I was maybe just being stubborn. I just... don't know -how- to do as she asks. I don't identify as an Androgyne. I never have. How do I change how I identify, and if I can do that, why can't I just change to identifying as a 'normal -girl-'? I asked people in the chat, and they were very helpful in pointing me here. I hope you're all not offended by my question, but... if my therapist thinks I should look into it, and the people in the chat think I should to, there must be something to it. I really maybe am just crazy in having thought I was FtM. They also told me to go to the Androgyny chat, so I think I will if I can, but I wanted to ask here, too, to get as many answers as possible. I hope no one's offended. I know it's an unusual request.

Don't let religion or politics enter into this. Your gender is entirely independent of both. Don't be guilt tripped into being someone you are not because of them. Maybe you aren't androgyne, maybe you are FTM or who knows. The important thing is you are on a quest to discover yourself. It will be an exciting adventure! You are not crazy, you are human. There is no offense to be taken. Follow your heart and your dreams and let us know how you are doing!

Thanks a lot. This is bothering me a lot that I don't know how to manage this...

We just all do the best we can and help each other - we are all in this together. Big hug from me! Iri

[Guest Elizabeth K]

I started to answer, then i saw what Irielle wrote. Says what I would have said.

All I can add?

Be yourself - the heck with names.

Lizzy

[Guest Leigh]

You can't change what you are. The way I see it, identifying as something else is more about coming to a different understanding about who you are.

Personally, I have changed how I identified - but that change reflects my understanding of myself. Before I questioned my gender - I identified as a girl. Then there was a period of not knowing how to identify. At a point, I started identifying as FtM and wanted to transition (wanting to live full time, get hormones, and top surgery - I never wanted bottom surgery). Then I started identifying in the non-binary, trying to find something that actually fit me. Right now, I identify as neutrois again. Through it all, I'm not really changing who I am, I'm more trying to understand myself better.

i think Conri's got it...

i understand how you feel, though. as an FtM who isn't really "manly" sometimes i've wondered if i just don't know what i am...but it always comes back to me that i am male. the rest is just personality. don't try to hard to fit into a box. do what feels right for you... if you want hormones, get on hormones, it doesn't mean you have to get the surgeries.

personally, i'm not sure about lower surgery either...i know it won't ever feel "right" because i'm not biomale, but it's about what's the best option for you.

peace&love

[Guest Kristian]

Thanks, everybody, for all of your responses and help!

@Conrí: I suppose that's a better way of thinking about it... that it's a shift/growth in understanding more than an actual 'change'. I guess... I'm just not sure how to jump-start it, though. I suppose this would come more naturally if I'd started along this path myself (rather than other people telling me to look into it), but... that's where I find myself at the moment, so I'm trying to make the best of figuring out what to do, you know? I mean... was there something for you that got you to shift into the non-binary, or did it just kind of happen? I suppose... right now, I'm at the place where I can understand the /logic/ of why I should be in the non-binary, just as I can understand the logic of why I should be a binary female, but at the same time, having that logic hasn't been able to compel my identification yet. It's like it's catching up or something.

@mia 1: Lol! Yeeeaah... I guess that is kind of ridiculous. Oh! And outside of here, I do use a 'C' a lot of the time. I just figure it's too late to change it on the forums/in the chat.

@Irielle: I think... that's the thing. I'd always defined 'androgynous' as the same way you had, until my therapist specifically told me it was intended as a 'compromise'. When I got (admittedly) mad, I told her how I didn't see how it was a compromise, and that it seemed as if she was asking me to become something completely different. Again, though, I see where everyone's coming from, so I'm wondering if... maybe I just don't see it myself for some stupid reason. Again, though, I have to ask the same question that I asked Conrí in wondering /how/ I start down the path of trying to better understand? It's like I'm stuck where I am, at the moment, and it'd only be responsible to at least try to explore one of the other directions. I just don't know how. I mean, I'm always questioning myself, too, but more on an intellectual level. That's the problem, I guess... since logic can never really be on my side in any of these internal arguments. What about you? How did you come to realize you weren't in the binary? Was there anything that spurred the realization, or did it just come about?

@Elizabeth K: Haha, yeah... As you can see what what I told mia 1, my situation with names is already kind of confusing, eh?

@NobleLight: I guess as someone who settled more in the binary, I should ask you, too: How did you come to settle on FtM, even if you don't fit in a box? I mean... was it more of... I don't know, a 'gut' instinct? Whenever I mention my concerns over surgery, that's a red flag to /everyone/ (even through Laura's, it seems) that I'm not 'right' where I am in my current identification and that I should look into things like this as my 'alternative'. Of course, they get the same impression from any general interaction with me, as well, because I'm not masculine 'enough'. It just seems very confusing in the trans/LGBTQA/whatever communities. On the one hand, there's the message to be your 'own person', but on the other, there's the reaction that, if your 'own person' doesn't fit enough, to go join somewhere else. I can't really fault the latter thought process. I've never had a problem with standards or rules, myself. I was always habitually coloring inside the lines. I'm just not sure, like I said to everyone else, how to go about... I guess... coming to understand myself in the way that others do? I'm not sure if this makes sense.

[Guest Leigh]

@NobleLight: I guess as someone who settled more in the binary, I should ask you, too: How did you come to settle on FtM, even if you don't fit in a box? I mean... was it more of... I don't know, a 'gut' instinct? Whenever I mention my concerns over surgery, that's a red flag to /everyone/ (even through Laura's, it seems) that I'm not 'right' where I am in my current identification and that I should look into things like this as my 'alternative'. Of course, they get the same impression from any general interaction with me, as well, because I'm not masculine 'enough'. It just seems very confusing in the trans/LGBTQA/whatever communities. On the one hand, there's the message to be your 'own person', but on the other, there's the reaction that, if your 'own person' doesn't fit enough, to go join somewhere else. I can't really fault the latter thought process. I've never had a problem with standards or rules, myself. I was always habitually coloring inside the lines. I'm just not sure, like I said to everyone else, how to go about... I guess... coming to understand myself in the way that others do? I'm not sure if this makes sense.

i guess you could say it's just instinct. i just know i'm a man. even if that's not how it is on the outside...even if i do things that some people think are girly.

i know what my gender is, but i also know what i enjoy doing (and i'll keep doing it even if it is too girly for some)...

the main thing you need to realize is what's right for you. if you want to express your gender as male as fully as possible, you should consider hormones.

but on the other hand, you don't have to go all the way...surgery, etc, if you don't feel comfortable with it.

i have a transman friend who isn't getting lower surgery...i'm not sure about it. you just need to do what's right for you to be as happy as you can be.

feel free to PM me if you want to talk about it more

peace&love

[Guest hayden_jude]

Wow. I definitely feel all of this, Kristian. I started out thinking I was FTM also, but I always felt sort of stuck in the middleground. Like I was neither binary gender - at least not completely. I had my days where I was so gung-ho and really passionate about being male, and then I had my days where I felt ok in my female body, or where I felt like I didn't really need to change. I also wasn't a "tomboy" as a child - in fact, I had this pair of pink, fringed, cowboy boots that I adored and when my friends and I played Spice Girls, I was always Ginger. All this time I've been questioning myself, because everyone else I've talked to or heard of has known all their lives that their minds and bodies didn't match up. And for me, this is a recent development. It statred last summer and then I packed it away at the beginning of the school year because I didn't want to deal with it, and then it really came back, ten times stronger than before. But I've always thought that maybe I was wrong, because it was something that had just recently occured to me, and because I had my "girl" days. It's been troubling me for awhile.

Then, suddenly, the thought popped into my head that maybe the reason behind my indecision was that I didn't really want to be either gender, specifically. I started really thinking about androgyny - what if I combined the best of both, the things from both genders that make me feel most natural and comfortable? Could I conceivably be happy? Would that erase the longing I feel to be OUT of this body?

I still can't be sure. It's been really confusing me as well. I'm just glad to know that I am not alone in my doubts and confusions, and maybe you'll feel better not being alone either. Best of luck to you.

[Guest Irielle]

Thanks, everybody, for all of your responses and help!

@Irielle: I think... that's the thing. I'd always defined 'androgynous' as the same way you had, until my therapist specifically told me it was intended as a 'compromise'. When I got (admittedly) mad, I told her how I didn't see how it was a compromise, and that it seemed as if she was asking me to become something completely different. Again, though, I see where everyone's coming from, so I'm wondering if... maybe I just don't see it myself for some stupid reason. Again, though, I have to ask the same question that I asked Conrí in wondering /how/ I start down the path of trying to better understand? It's like I'm stuck where I am, at the moment, and it'd only be responsible to at least try to explore one of the other directions. I just don't know how. I mean, I'm always questioning myself, too, but more on an intellectual level. That's the problem, I guess... since logic can never really be on my side in any of these internal arguments. What about you? How did you come to realize you weren't in the binary? Was there anything that spurred the realization, or did it just come about?

Hi Kristian, sorry it's taken me so long to post again. You ask me how I came to know about myself.

I always knew I was different somehow but couldn't name it. At about age 7 or so I realized I was supposed to have a girl's body but I was still okay with being a boy. I always did both 'boy' and 'girl' things interchangeably. My mom taught me to knit and crochet and my dad taught me to work on engines. My grandmas taught me to cook and bake and my dad taught me to fish and how to fix things. I'd help mom go shopping and help dad chop and haul wood. All those things were the same to me, I never thought of them as being either 'boy' stuff or 'girl' stuff. I had a collection of stuffed animals and made model airplanes. I had tea parties and played in our fort in the backyard.

I did get teased at school and stuff, got called a girl and 'queerbait' and things like that. I was definitely a 'pretty boy'. I don't remember ever taking those things much to heart, though. I was kind of a loner at school. I never fit into any cliques but kind of bounced around among them.

So I guess what I"m saying is that I have never felt at home in the binary world, I have always been both male and female and I"ve always been comfortable with that - although I was pretty careful to keep it a secret. I think most people just thought I was different, without having a name for it.

I'm in a boy's body but should really be in a girl's body. I would LOVE to be physically a girl but I would still be in the wrong body because I'm a third gender, neither male nor female. I would love to have breasts and might get implants one day. I don't want SRS or hormones, at least not right now. I don't want to lose my abilities as a male. I'm pansexual.

I came out as gay a long time ago. Most people, including my parents, already knew. I find that when I come out as androgyne it confuses everyone (me included sometimes ). Sometimes I just let them keep thinking I'm bisexual. If I want them to know I'm differently gendered I might start out by explaining I'm transgendered, let them get a handle on that, and then go into the androgyne part. I"ve never had any negative reactions from anyone I've told. Confusion, yes. Negativity, no. My biggest problem right now is that when I tell my boyfriend I want breasts he doesn't like the idea. He says, "I don't like girl parts." I'll just keep wearing him down. He is very, very supportive of me and I really like that.

It took me a while to give a name to my gender identity and androgynous seems to be the best fit. The hardest thing for me, though, was the realization that what is so normal and everyday for me is incredibly abnormal to 99% (or more) of the rest of the world. I had always assumed that everyone felt the way I did. It always made perfect sense to me for 'boys' to play with dolls and for 'girls' to work on cars. I guess I"ve always been in my own little world.

That's an awfully long-winded answer to your question. I've pretty much always followed my heart, my feelings and my dreams. I have an excellent intellect but I know my head is broken. It's been filled with too much of the world and the world is incredibly out of touch with itself. When it comes to living, really living, follow your heart and your dreams, they will always tell you the truth. Your head tells you what you have been told and we have all been told too many lies. Lies are cheap and lies are easy. Lies don't work.

Being differently gendered ain't to picnic but I wouldn't have myself any other way. Most people have the world in black and white, we have it in glorious technicolor and surround sound. Sometimes I get lost in a very dark place; I lose myself and don't know who or where I am. I grieve for the girl I should be but am not. I grieve for the boy I am but should not be. So I see my therapist on a regular basis and I visit my most wonderful friends and family here and at home and I find solid ground once again and life goes on. It is never a compromise. Never compromise on your humanity. You are who you are.

If I may be so bold to say - you will not find yourself through your logic or your intellect. The path to better understanding starts in your heart and in your dreams and unfolds itself in your feelings for the whole world to enjoy. The journey can be difficult and even painful but it's also liberating and joyous and it's yours and you deserve to be fulfilled. Everyone here is on your side - you need never be alone again.

All the best in your journey and in your life! Big hug from me!

Iri

[Guest Conrí]

@Conrí: I suppose that's a better way of thinking about it... that it's a shift/growth in understanding more than an actual 'change'. I guess... I'm just not sure how to jump-start it, though. I suppose this would come more naturally if I'd started along this path myself (rather than other people telling me to look into it), but... that's where I find myself at the moment, so I'm trying to make the best of figuring out what to do, you know? I mean... was there something for you that got you to shift into the non-binary, or did it just kind of happen? I suppose... right now, I'm at the place where I can understand the /logic/ of why I should be in the non-binary, just as I can understand the logic of why I should be a binary female, but at the same time, having that logic hasn't been able to compel my identification yet. It's like it's catching up or something.

I think that gender is one of those things that logic doesn't help with - because if i use my logic, then gender is merely something learned - go to the academics and they will tell you that it is a social/cultural construct. But if I use my feelings - maybe there is more to it than that, identity is an inner sense of yourself, but it's not always clear and easy to understand it. Though at the moment my identity and logic seem to be pretty compatible XD

I was never very binary to begin with - as a girl I was pretty masculine, as a boy I was pretty feminine. I grew up playing with toys that have been traditionally thought of as boy's toys, and toys thought of as girl's toys. I tried being a girl, didn't feel completely right, same for when I tried being a guy.

Don't try to be something because people say that you should try to be that way. And in no way is androgynous a compromise - it is a way of being.

All this time I've been questioning myself, because everyone else I've talked to or heard of has known all their lives that their minds and bodies didn't match up. And for me, this is a recent development.

I didn't know all my life that my mind and body didn't match up, and there are many people who have had similar experiences- like my wife who is TG (MtF). It's a myth that everyone knows from when they were a little child.

It's like a dark room, we don't know what's in there until we turn on our little flashlight (when we start to question)... but since it's a flashlight we never get the whole picture at once... now imagine that the sun is rising and the room becomes brighter (increasing knowledge and awareness) until we can see everything clearly (this is when the questioning part ends and we finally understand ourselves). The thing is, it starts at a different time for everyone and moves at a different speed too.

[Guest Cazz333]

It's like a dark room, we don't know what's in there until we turn on our little flashlight (when we start to question)... but since it's a flashlight we never get the whole picture at once... now imagine that the sun is rising and the room becomes brighter (increasing knowledge and awareness) until we can see everything clearly (this is when the questioning part ends and we finally understand ourselves). The thing is, it starts at a different time for everyone and moves at a different speed too.

True, you don't really become an androgyne per say it's more that's what you find yourself as. At least for me, the sense of being both female and male was always there. I can't really remember a time when I was just a girl or woman. To be truthful I'm most comfortable with man- woman. So it's more a revelation than simply trying to categorize yourself. I'm not that sure that I'm just androgyne I could fit into other categories too...

[Guest Kristian]

Thanks, everyone, for writing back. I know I'm so spotty when it comes to writing back. I can only make it onto these boards once in a while and then it's usually like I splatter this massive wave of text all over the place.

@Leigh: I guess my whole problem is the definitions. I was just always taught that gender and physical sex had to align, you know? A guy has a p*nis (crazy auto-censors); a girl has brea*ts and a vag*na. That was it, you know? I mean... how can I 'know' I'm a guy when... my body doesn't line up... I don't fit all of the traditional gender roles... I mean, I really don't have anything going in my favor along the lines of 'proof'. I suppose I've never been one to trust my instincts or feelings because I'm fully aware of the fact that, if I was crazy... I just wouldn't know it, you know? I know that's kind of a messed-up way to think about it, but... yeah. That's why I look externally quite often, which I know probably isn't good, but... It's hard to help. I suppose because of these definitions, I do worry a lot that I'd still feel like some kind of 'fake' or 'impostor'... or at least not 'as good' as the 'real thing'. Is it weird to worry about that? I would give anything to just have some kind of magic happen and wake up transformed, but I mean... yeah... It's just not possible. Sadly.

@hayden_jude: I'm sorry that you've been troubled for a while, yeah... I hope you don't feel so alone. I can attest to the notion that I also hate confusion. I mean, if you ever find a way to just be settled in-between and not care as much about changing your body, /please/ let me know the secret, and I'll try to do the same. I'd appreciate that. It's what I'm trying now: just be... settled, I guess. I suppose I feel like I should just suck it up and deal with the fact that I do have characteristics of both, so I should be both... or something. It's actually getting to that point of wholly believing that you are is the hard part, though, you know? I wish you lots of luck, also.

@Irielle: No! Don't worry at all about being long winded. It helps to read other people's stories and the like. I suppose that's part of what I wonder about, though... the fact that I was always kind of part of that other 99%. I mean, my family is /very/ 'normal', and I grew up with a very standardized way of thinking that I just can't shake. I am kind of... hyper-attached to the binary world. It's the kind of thing that I can understand rationally and can embrace simply with other people (I recently found out I have an androgynous friend, and it's not too surprising, really... I can totally see it), but then when thinking about myself... it's so hard to put my mind around the idea of being in the middle or being something completely separate altogether. I envy your confidence. I wish I knew myself that well, but that's really awesome of you, especially after some of the junk you got as a kid. You're actually the second person now to call me out on trying to be too intellectual about it all. Maybe the third. I forget. It's the kind of thing where... I agree with the things you're saying... about not compromising and being who you are. I understand it, but... I suppose it's somewhat different when trying to apply it to oneself, you know? Man, I'd love to live in technicolor and surround sound. That's great, too, that you have such a great support network. I suppose I'm sort of even afraid to build one because that's like acknowledging that something's up and I need one, you know? Curse you, pride! Plus, I admittedly worry what would be said. I would have to start from scratch, since most of those I know now would not be cool with any of this. Still, it's good to be reminded, I think, of the various things you said... even if it's hard to wrap my mind around them. It's sure better than just swirling around with myself.

@Conri: I know that gender is a social construct, but I guess that's part of why I'm always so tempted to fall back onto biological sex, even though, I guess there's a lot more variation in that realm than normally acknowledged, too. Either way, I just know that... I do fit into one biological sex, and since things like gender or how I 'feel' are so amorphous... I feel ridiculous for not just being able to accept what I see with my own two eyes. I mean, I wasn't ever a tomboy or anything, and I just did what my parents said. I was a really chill kid. If they gave me a dress, I wore it. Plus, I admit that I always liked to do whatever got me praise. It was only in things like playing 'house': I always played the dad or the brother, which didn't seem so odd at the time. It's good to know that the whole starting as a kid thing was a myth because I kept that to myself and never said much of anything. Still, I will try to use less logic, either way... as that's the second call-out just on this thread, heh. I do like that flashlight analogy a lot, though. I suppose... I just need to figure out how to get those different shots to form an entire scene. I'm guessing that's easier said than done, but... at least it helps me not feel as weird that I don't have the whole thing mapped out already. What do you do, though, if other people look at the same scene and see something different, or see the same shots and put them together in a whole separate order? I mean, how do you reconcile that? I don't want to just disregard others' opinions, after all. That's the whole point of this topic. Maybe there's no answer.

@Cazz333: I suppose I've never really had that sensation, which is the thing... I just sort of... repeated what I was told, if that makes sense? I was told I was a girl, so that was kind of it. I didn't even know much of what it meant because my family never talked about it. I never got into the whole pattern of 'Hey... I look like this group (girls) more than this group (guys)... does that make sense for me?' until I got older because, really, I looked different from everyone, heh (I'm an adopted Asian in a pretty much all-white environment). I suppose that's the whole problem: I've been so delayed, and now, I'm trying to search for that 'revelation'... This might sound odd, but how does a person identify a revelation? I mean, is it a wholly internal thing, or is it in combination with what people say on the outside--like when /both/ click? I ask because that's a key problem now...

Anyway, thanks again, everybody!

[Guest androgynous]

True, you don't really become an androgyne per say it's more that's what you find yourself as. At least for me, the sense of being both female and male was always there. I can't really remember a time when I was just a girl or woman. To be truthful I'm most comfortable with man- woman. So it's more a revelation than simply trying to categorize yourself. I'm not that sure that I'm just androgyne I could fit into other categories too...

This is so true. Couldn't agree more, it always has been inside which explains a lot of things in life once you figured it out later on, at least for me it figures some behavior and also reactions to the general social stigma's, the way I think (out of the box thinker) and my ability to always have both female and male friends, and they always came to me for advise about relationships, dating etcetera

[Guest Cazz333]

@Cazz333: I suppose I've never really had that sensation, which is the thing... I just sort of... repeated what I was told, if that makes sense? I was told I was a girl, so that was kind of it. I didn't even know much of what it meant because my family never talked about it. I never got into the whole pattern of 'Hey... I look like this group (girls) more than this group (guys)... does that make sense for me?' until I got older because, really, I looked different from everyone, heh (I'm an adopted Asian in a pretty much all-white environment). I suppose that's the whole problem: I've been so delayed, and now, I'm trying to search for that 'revelation'... This might sound odd, but how does a person identify a revelation? I mean, is it a wholly internal thing, or is it in combination with what people say on the outside--like when /both/ click? I ask because that's a key problem now...

It's a combination of insdie and outside perceptions, feeling and events.

It's gradual. Some things falll into place, like tiny details. The first time I knew something was up was that I liked role playing as any gender and didn't prefer being thought of as exclusively female or a girl and a woman later on. Other times was when I could make a guy feel better about himself because not only to sympathise and empathise as a girl but I almost walked his shoes. As in if I had his body I would do that... sort of thing. It's really I could identify as one of his gender not just understand it.

I call it a revelation only because it's subtle and comes in stages. Some times you're not sure util gradually things become slightly more clear. I'm not sure if there's a definate ending point or even if there is one because we are constantly learning about ourselves in life. I suppose after a while you get more comfortable with who you are and settle for less um, conformity.

I could add I differ in how my brain thinks: textures, sounds, pictures, words on a page as well that I tend to need enough details and the big picture to understand something. Then there's my shoddy social skills, my work is more difficult than it seems for others... on top of that there's I have trouble dating because of lack of social skills, indifference to sex and I connect with that way with few people.

This is so true. Couldn't agree more, it always has been inside which explains a lot of things in life once you figured it out later on, at least for me it figures some behavior and also reactions to the general social stigma's, the way I think (out of the box thinker) and my ability to always have both female and male friends, and they always came to me for advise about relationships, dating etcetera

Me pretty much save a few details.

[Guest Valentine]

So... I've always been in the FtM forums up until now because, even though I was born as a girl, I have for a long time considered myself a guy. I just am unsure if it's real like it is for others I've met... or if I'm just nuts. I've never put much value on my feelings, so I tend to think, 'So what if I feel like a guy? After all, I have a vag, and hardly anyone agrees with me.' I was never a stereotypical case in that I wasn't a 'tom boy' as a kid. I had no gross motor coordination, so I became a nerd: science clubs, math clubs, advanced study tracks, reading clubs, yearbook, band... very stereotypical. The thing is: none of those are traditionally 'male' or 'female', you know? So I question myself, and so does everyone else. Plus, I question how much surgery would help me, which seems to be a big 'no no' in the trans community, and understandably so. I just feel like it might be a lose-lose either way: I don't feel right now, but even after surgery, it'll just be a different kind of 'not right', where I'd feel like a knock off or something. Not 'original', you know?

I'm seeing a therapist about this, and because of the things I've said above, she told me today that I should maybe try to identify as Androgynous instead so I could be "in the middle"... like a compromise, you know? Admittedly, I was insulted at first... as if she was saying I could just 'switch' like that. After all, if I could have, I would have already. In some ways, I'm hoping I'm wrong and will be 'normal' inevitably. My family is Conservative Catholic Republican, so me as I am now would never fly. Still, after a while, I thought I was maybe just being stubborn. I just... don't know -how- to do as she asks. I don't identify as an Androgyne. I never have. How do I change how I identify, and if I can do that, why can't I just change to identifying as a 'normal -girl-'? I asked people in the chat, and they were very helpful in pointing me here. I hope you're all not offended by my question, but... if my therapist thinks I should look into it, and the people in the chat think I should to, there must be something to it. I really maybe am just crazy in having thought I was FtM. They also told me to go to the Androgyny chat, so I think I will if I can, but I wanted to ask here, too, to get as many answers as possible. I hope no one's offended. I know it's an unusual request.

Thanks a lot. This is bothering me a lot that I don't know how to manage this...

OK, a quick back story.

First I thought I was just a crossdresser, I hadn't heard of anything else.

Then for a while, very short, I thought maybe I should have been born a girl.

Then I went back to just a crossdresser.

I realized that I was Asexual (I hate that term), but didn't have a word for it for decades.

When I've lived alone, a significant portion of my clothing has been woman's. Even now, at work, I am wearing woman's slacks.

A couple of years ago a close friend commented that I always seem to dress androgynously.

Once I found this site, I realized that other people identify as Androgyne.

For years, I have daydreamed about losing my male bits, they are pretty much just a convenient way to pee standing up.

My avatar says it all.

Kristian, my best advice is to try to imagine yourself as male, female, both, neither, and anything else that might come to mind. You should end up feeling which is right for you. Then discuss this with your therapist.

I found it interesting that you defined your family as Conservative Catholic Republicans, I would describe mine as Conservative Catholic Democrats.