gender role stereotypes for trans celebs

[Guest Faith gibson]

I guess I have been thinking of this a lot lately. I'm not sure of the right answer, I just know what will work for me and what won't. I am not sure if I am correct or not and I don't want anyone else to take offence to what I do and think. It's just too bad that everyone cannot be accepted regardless of how they present. I think it is possible that this step (celebs being accepted only if they fit gender role stereotypes) has to be taken in order to get where so many think we should be.

http://secondnexus.com/social-commentary-and-trends/perspectives/transpersons-confined-to-gender-roles/?ts_pid=500&utm_content=inf_17_1164_2&tse_id=INF_9982912287594c878d28a9d085156f2f

[Guest LesleyAnne]

Very good article Faith, and it does make one pause, my personal feelings are that being Transgender is very fluid along a wide spectrum, and acceptance needs to come from that thought......What you see is what you get, nothing more, and nothing less. I am human just like you!

[Guest]

Thank you for sharing, Faith.

A very interesting article.

Huggs,

Joann

[Carolyn Marie]

I couldn't find a way to the second page, but what I read is interesting. I'm not sure I agree, though. Some trans celebs are not quite so "passable." I include in that Lana Wachowski and even Caitlyn Jenner. So yes, most trans celebs are good looking, but most celebs in general are good looking, so I don't see the big issue. Many of the more attractive trans celebs are also young/and or started transitioning at a young age. That is an inherent advantage in the "looks" department. I don't begrudge them that advantage.

I can only speak for myself. I am not a young, lovely woman, and I have no discernible acting talent. But in over four years out and about, I've not had any problems being "accepted," whatever that means, and I've certainly not been treated badly save for my old supervisor, who was a jerk to everyone, not just me.

Some folks got the looks, some don't. Life ain't fair, but that's life for you. I'll play the hand I've been dealt, and try hard not to begrudge those with an ace-high straight.

Carolyn Marie

[Drea]

"Passing Privilege", yet another article perpetuating this myth and pretty clueless what one needs to do to be accepted.

"Passing Privilege" a term mostly used by trans people who advocate for things they claim trans people need that they themselves don't need because they "pass well" and are needed "for those who will never pass". It also becomes an excuse for some and a fear for others that they won't pass.

I've seen folks so hung up that they believe they can't be successful without passing.

Jenner and Cox are accepted because they pass? Because they fit gender expectations? Really? Are they really accepted? Or are they just symbols that the media feels obligated to speak about and present positively to maintain their political credentials? Are they welcomed in because it means one things, ratings?

I've seen trans people say they aren't taken seriously because they don't "dress up enough" and then others that say they aren't taken seriously because they "dress up too much".

Passing isn't some be all end all route to acceptance. Folks can pass completely and not be accepted. So then some consider "passing privilege" as allowing stealth and stealth is what is needed.

One doesn't need to be gender overly gender conforming. One perhaps shouldn't, to use an old term, engage in gender bending by portraying some very strong conflicting gender signals often done with the intent of causing a scent. Now one can argue that society shouldn't care if a woman wants to sport a scraggly Duck Dynasty beard. Furthermore if one is claiming to be a woman perhaps conforming to completely to a male stereotype isn't the mostly likely to be accepted.

Essentially am saying if one is identifying as a woman it probably isn't a good idea to fully conform to male stereotypes, but that is very different than saying one should go run over to conform to female stereotypes.

[Charlize]

"Passing privilege is a reality, and it illustrates a hypocritical culture, one that welcomes a few, while pretending to welcome all."

This line seems to be aimed at the members of the trans* community rather than society in general. The cis gender population certainly doesn't welcome all of us but i hope we don't raise that wall between us. Many of us don'y pass and may never. Some simply don't care or even don't want to pass. They are still our brothers and sisters or perhaps a combination of both. Hopefully many of us can still accept and support them. That is certainly the attitude i see here at Laura's. The cis population may need to learn before they can accept but hopefully some of that education has already happened for us. We have felt the fear and lived the difficulties.

Hugs,

Charlize

[MarcieMarie12]

Just some general thoughts on this.

CIS gender people when dealing with us, use what they know about us. So unless they've actually met and gotten to know a transgender person, they only know the stereo types. The problem in that is that the stereotypical trans person doesn't exist. We as a group are only 0.03% of the population by some internet estimates--so few that statistics are hard to come by. We all have different life experiences. We all have different levels and experiences with gender dysphoria (some of us don't even have it--I'm not one of those). Some of us realize were trans when we are children, others when we are older. So quite frankly there is no one narrative,just the opposite. As a group we are pretty diverse.

I feel that humanity developed stereotypes to give someone a base understanding of someone they had not met. Thing is people cling to them despite information that contradicts them out of bigotry, pride, and to go along with their crowd.

[SoSarah]

" The art of the transition " I went down this path so I could be alive to watch my grandchildren grow up. This is my fact, the one that gave me enough courage to go forward ( Life ! ). My three daughters were more supportive to my happyness than I. Trans people that want to project who they are for a more positive day are not unique to the human race. I personally could not imagine providing people with the Caitlyn Jenner style day after day. With that said I do dream to live in stealth or to pass comfortably ( which is much better with age ) and those statements have something to due with my need to not put undo pressure on friends and family when seen with me. With seven years of HRT therapy in my past that left me with bumps and wide places that most 56 year males don't have, especially in Summer garb, I am quite studyness when in comes to explaining myself when perceived in sticky a situation. Once I made gaint strides in whether I passed or not thats when buying Christmas presents in public for my 5 grandchildren, my dreams expanded. Smile's...Sarah

[JJ]

It's been part of the dialog of some groups that gender is a social construct which goes in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. While gender presentation is a social construct I believe after a lot of studying and a lifetime of working professionally with people that certain aspects of gender and gender roles are inherent. Studies are actually finding more differences in male and female behavior and the way brains process information than scientists ever expected. That is important for us because if we want to be accepted as the gender we identify with we have to expect to meet those gender constructs to some degree-just as all cis gender people are also expected to do. And often the inherent gender behaviors and feelings are for many of us the source of our pain and despair, our awkwardness with people and inability in many cases to really be comfortable in the role we were assigned at birth.

We can't flaunt the rules of our culture and society and then expect to be embraced by other members of that society and culture. We make them uncomfortable when we break the rules and expectations they have been conditioned to meet from birth. A socialization that has not worked for us many times because it is not working on the same basic set of inherent reactions and behaviors as those who are not transgendered

That said, as long as they are willing to take the consequences as far as the reactions of others in the world we live in now rather than the one we'd like to have, then every person should be free to express themselves in their own way. Free from outright attacks -verbal or otherwise for it. Whether the responses are inherent or a product of socialization they are there and expressing outside the norm has consequences. Just as it does for every other human being whether cis or trans. How we present says what role we expect to fulfill and the ways we expect to do so. What we wear and how is very much a message to others and that won't change. If you have the strength t be a rebel and move back the boundaries that is your right. If you don't then conformation to stereotypes-and there is a very broad range of those actually from Susie Homemaker to Tough Biker Chic and beyond-is necessary.

We are being just as narrow minded and petty to criticize some other trans person for their choice to conform to stereotypes and their need to fulfill a certain role as any bigot who denies us the right to live the role our gender orientation dictates to us. I may not like that the woman who decides to go out in heavy stubble and a dress that is way too loud and way too tight reinforces the stereotypes that make acceptance harder for us all but she is still free to do so. She WILL face consequences and needs to be aware of that but she has every right to make that choice.

Nobody on earth has the right to dictate to me or anyone else how I decide to present myself. They can offer assistance in meeting my goals-in presenting in the way and role I've chosen because we often don't really get it right at first but they don't have the right to chose what that role and presentation is or should be. For me or anyone else - role model, spokesperson appointed by society or not.

Johnny

[Guest noeleena]

Hi,

How to conform to a view set by a few ,and who do those happen to be ,so whats importaint how you dress act or speak or even look like , so is this socety or just a few , because of money and fashion , or maybe its about you have to be a member of a click. group or what ever , maybe the car you drive or the house and if your a male whos hanging off your shoulder ( woman ) .

So do you conform , OR.......

Well i live many 1000,s of miles away from your country so i dont count ,

I dont conform and any one who knows me and well enough knows full well i dont conform in any way shape or form how i dress talk act or do things and as to how i look no gender not male or female in the normal sense no sex organs so if you wont compltely different , i pass really well .

I dont have the upto date car , just two heavy weight trucks a 4x4 truck and a family van i dont own , a work hack dings knocks scrached paint and needs painting oh well tough ......

and a lovely old house build in the 1920s yeap needs work no drama i,ll do it over the next 2 months .

Okay , so what im getting at is i dont rank high in the you know up with the Jones and has it all .

So what do you do pass me by most likely as a nobody , Yet I was seen and spoke to over 3 Million people gave my life history and took meetings and talked about ( Heading of) ....Whats it Like being different and having a life ,

Your right who would look at me 2 times and think ....wow ....what a lovely sexy looking female no one ,

No beauty here so what makes the difference for myself as a person . personalty who i am as a person what make this kid who she is , what stands out if not beauty , look closer , and then youll find the real who i am , my beauty is shown from with in and thats what people see and why im asked to be involved with so many as you know our membership of over 2000 people and my many lovely friends , and they wont to know where i am when they dont see me about as often as i am normaly ,

Do i have to be a celeberty, well i know what its like and could not go any where with out some one wonting to talk to me , and having my photo taken ,

Yet hang on im a nobody , well you dont have to have those things i talked about , you just have to be who you are what makes you ...YOU....sure not my clothes or how i present myself , what people see is just ...who.... i am , no more no less ,

I think most here would not look at me 2 times youd just pass me by , some times we need to look beyound how we think we look and what we see of our selfs , for myself ....just a female who,s different , how say you .

heres something that may help,.... HAVING ....Selfesteem , Confidence, and Knowing who you are and Selfworth ,

...noeleena...

[Guest Sarah Faith]

There are always consequences to actions. If a person has the goal of integrating and trying to fit in and is dead set on being non-gender conforming then these goals are pretty much in conflict with one another. That's just how people are when it comes to people who don't fit into social norms. If someone's goal is to really fit in, then they should be doing what they need to do to meet those goals. You don't have to pass super well to be accepted, you don't have to be super attractive to be accepted. If someone wants to do a lot of gender bending, great more power to them but they also need to accept the reality that it isn't always going to be embraced with open arms by every random person out there.

To be fair CIS women who are extremely tall or whatever else stand out as well, and often get more of the wrong kinds of attention where people might question their gender. You know how most tall cis women I know deal with this? They shrug it off and move on with their lives. Acceptance usually comes when your not demanding it, it usually comes when you just don't let what other people think bother you. I am living stealth, so maybe I don't have much room to talk.. but I can't say I portray my self as a stereotypical girly girl either. I'm pretty dark and sarcastic and honestly I get by just fine.

[Briezy]

This was an incredibly interesting article and discussion. New to the forums so I just wanted to say hello, thank everyone for their posts. I think "celebrity" anything is always going to set a mostly unattainable image for (you name it...girls, guys, transgendered). Standards of beauty (especially for females) that are created by celebrity, money, and access to any medical procedure out there have always been something feminist have railed against, so it makes sense that the media finds these "new" gender roles celebs are embracing and give them ESPY's and stuff. I also understand that it is frustrating to worry and fret about every little detail and decision in order to balance portraying who I really am versus what is expected by society when someone like Caitlyn can have this whirlwind transformation with what seems to be ease and fanfare. I definitely struggle with wanting to "pass" and feel "pretty" versus just wanting to be myself which really is something much more nonconforming. Like, even if I can overcome my own fears of being a woman I still have to battle with being true to myself as opposed to trying to "pass", not because I always want to (sometimes I do) but because I am afraid of the bigotry and direct confrontations one tends to get if I am not in wig and makeup every time I leave the house (well I always have some makeup on, but you get the point...lol) or if I haven't started hormones yet or what if I decide not to start hormones (which I can't wait for). It's true that there seems to be no one answer that fits everyone. All I know is I am learning a lot from you all and I appreciate it.

[Drea]

Acceptance usually comes when your not demanding it

Exactly...and when not attacking people for not accepting.