AFA Cites 10 Alleged Crimes In Target Restrooms

[Carolyn Marie]

http://www.christianpost.com/news/targets-transgender-bathroom-policy-leads-to-10-crimes-targeting-women-undressing-170300/

 

Carolyn Marie

[Charlize]

I hate to read this but at the same time have serious doubts.  i would be curious how many complaints Target received prior to entering into its current policy.  The source of this information also seems to be able to "elaborate" on some issues.  I'm 'sure' that as 'good' christians they would never consider anything that wasn't completely true......

That being said it is always possible that there are folks in this world that would take advantage of any opportunity to be naughty.  Somehow that shouldn't take away our freedom to live as ourselves in safety.

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

[Alejandra]

It seems to me that gender neutral facilities would be the answer.  This would allow for the privacy of women and children while still allowing transgender people to enjoy " our freedom to live as ourselves in safety".

I understand how incidents such as these are not conducive to the preferred transgender narrative, but denying the facts, or 'shooting the messenger' is not the way to productively engage with those who also feel aggrieved. I just think that engaging with those that have legitimate concerns with the goal of finding a workable compromise is a better course of action than just dismissing those concerns as some sort of Christian "bigotry" or "hatred".

[Carolyn Marie]

It's hard to know what to make of the AFA's claims.  On the one hand, they have an axe to grind, and are not above stretching the truth to fit their narrative, or outright lying.  On the other hand, some incidents might be real.  I'd like to know their source material, or have Target confirm all or any of the incidents.  At the moment, I'll reserve judgement.

Carolyn Marie

[MarcieMarie12]

So far only one instance of the cases they cite involved someone who was transgender. The others don't specify. What should not be missed is that the perpetrator is being prosecuted under existing laws.

[Alejandra]

I think you can follow the links to the sources. The question is:  how/why were these perps allowed access to those private spaces?

[Charlize]

Has there ever been anything other than a sign to control a criminal act such as this.  Once preformed the laws are quite specific and exist.  To say that  trans* people are  peeping toms is foolish and certainly untrue.  It would be lovely if there were separate private rest rooms or changing rooms throughout all public spaces but that is certainly not a solution.  I doubt many would consider the necessary expense worth it.  The solution is therefore to stay in the room that was assigned by your anatomy at birth?  That is terribly unsafe for the person who has transitioned.  Why should they be punished and forced to go where they would be ridiculed and perhaps worse to stop a few perverts for whom laws already exist.  Maybe everybody should be made to show their birth certificates.  Even surgery isn't good enough for many of the laws that are being written.  It is a pity that some may take advantage of any recognition of my right to live my life as the person i am but the laws forbidding change have been eliminated and seeing them come back with this as a pretext is ridiculous.  

Fortunately i doubt these laws will stand up to the legal system.  And even having this discussion is foolish.  

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize 

[Carolyn Marie]

I think the key to the rebuttal for those cases that are legitimate is this: in how many instances did the suspect claim to be transgender to gain access, and in how many did they use the claim as a defense for their criminal misconduct?

Regardless of Target's policy on changing rooms, such behavior was and is criminal, and in no case would being transgender be an excuse.  So the argument that allowing trans women to access the appropriate changing or restroom gives rise to that kind of behavior is nonsensical. It would have happened either way.

Carolyn Marie

[Alejandra]

I am not sure Charlize, if this was an answer to my question, but nowhere in these links have I seen anyone make the allegation that " trans* people are  peeping toms".  Hopefully this straw man argument was advanced inadvertently. Is it that you are opposed to such a simple solution as gender neutral areas where people like yourself can go to feel safe? FYI, I made transition before any of  current protections were on the books.  For some reason, this was accomplished with a lot less drama than seems to be the case now that trans* has become such a cause celebre.

 

6 minutes ago, Carolyn Marie said:

So the argument that allowing trans women to access the appropriate changing or restroom gives rise to that kind of behavior is nonsensical. It would have happened either way.

I am not sure that is the argument that is being made.  The way I read it, the objection being made is that by changing an age old and accepted policy of segregating male/female changing areas, the door is opened to those that would abuse this more liberal policy. From what I read in your article, the APA reached out to Target in an effort to explore what possible safeguards might be implemented to mitigate this risk and ensure the safety and privacy of women and young children.

[MarcieMarie12]

Alejandra, my belief, based on living too close to DC is that the AFA was part of the anti-gay marriage crowd. Since that cause is now a smoldering ruin, the needed another cause to justify their existence. What they are asking for has nothing to do with safety and privacy. Basically they want carte blanch to judge everyone and decide if they have the right to be in women's spaces (notice they do not care about men's only spaces). Additionally the laws the AFA recommends have no real enforcement mechanism except on how the person looks, so a masculine looking cisgirl will be prevented from using those spaces or greatly harassed for doing so.

 

[Timber Wolf]

Hi Everyone,

 

As I see it, regarding those who have not had SRS (or GRS if you prefer), arguments can be made this way or that way with valud points to be made. I have my opinions, but respect others right to thier opinions. But regarding those who have had SRS, a safety issue comes up. Not all places have single user facilities available. To force a transitioned trans woman to use a crowded bussy men's room, or vise versa, could put them in great danger. I wish cis gender women would imagine what it would be like being forced to enter a crowded men's room and see every man staring at them. It might also be used to put trans people into "no win" situations. Told they must use the restroom according to the label on thier birth certificate, then when someone complains because they don't have the "appropriate" genitals for that restroom, they could be harassed, or even arrested for that. There are also some places where single user restrooms would not work. Arena's and stadiums where sporting events are held for example. During halftimes or intermissions, restroom use is too busy for single occupant restrooms. At these times restrooms are used in volume so people don't miss the game. There are ways to be found to more fairly, appropriately and safely address this issue other than going by ones birth certificate. Just slapping some rash, poorly thought out law on the issue will not fix it, but will usually make it worse. I've heard it said that it was better before we made a fuss over this issue, and it probably was. They hadn't made thier bathroom laws before this either. There are two sides to every argument, and usually two sides to every problem, and often multiple problems to every side. The issue is complex, not so cut and dry as some people (including myself) on either side sometimes seem to think. This will not be settled overnight. It will require patience and diligence. Having am "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude will be counter productive. We have to be able to balance standing up for our needs and rights with giving due consideration to others. While WE know trans people aren't interested in using restrooms for deviant purposes, I can appreciate a woman worrying if the person using the stall next to her is really a trans woman, or a wolf in sheeps clothing. She doesn't know the person to know what they really are. We need to find the best balance to be had. As ignorance fades, things will get better. Unfortunately, it's a slow process.

 

Lots of love,

Timber Wolf?

[VickySGV]

As an out of the closet activist I frequently attend events where RR's in the event focus venue are declared Gender Neutral and it is not until you enter the room that the presence or absence of urinals tells you what the intended gender segregated building plans had been.  A few places I have gone do use "Urinal Equipped" in small letters under the Gender Neutral designation.  This leads to some actually humorous situations of a positive nature. 

In a couple of cases, Cis gender events with their traditionally labeled Men and Women restrooms, were only a few hundred feet away from the Trans* event RR's and even without overflow capacity in their block of restrooms, had their attendees "Taking a walk on the Wild Side" down into our area to use the sanitary facilities. 

One such group actually felt it necessary to install "hall monitors" to warn their attendees of our perverse practices at the other end of the corridor and steer them into "approved" facilities, but the monitors were being ignored or brushed off, and their folks came down to check us out.  Eventually on of the "hall monitors" themself came to our end of the building and walked into the RR originally designated for their alternate assigned presentation.  I had been taking dinner tickets for our group at that one, and got to watch the whole thing.  Hard as it was I kept a straight face about it.

I also have to say that "Men's" restrooms are actually more tightly guarded than any women's rest room I have come near.  Even after having been misgendered immediately before using the RR, I was still chased away from the men's room over to the women's room and I had  not even breached the mancave zone of safety. 

My question for AFA is how many of this same type of event happened BEFORE Target's policy went into effect?  I am pretty sure it may even have been more problems.

[Alejandra]

9 hours ago, MarcieMarie12 said:

Alejandra, my belief, based on living too close to DC is that the AFA was part of the anti-gay marriage crowd. Since that cause is now a smoldering ruin, the needed another cause to justify their existence. What they are asking for has nothing to do with safety and privacy. Basically they want carte blanch to judge everyone and decide if they have the right to be in women's spaces (notice they do not care about men's only spaces). Additionally the laws the AFA recommends have no real enforcement mechanism except on how the person looks, so a masculine looking cisgirl will be prevented from using those spaces or greatly harassed for doing so.

Hi Marci. 

Quote

What they are asking for has nothing to do with safety and privacy.

And you know this how? The good news is that we live in a country where anyone can believe anything you want.  Perhaps it is your own personal perspective which differs from that of a young child or mother that is affecting your strongly held opinion.

Quote

Additionally the laws the AFA recommends have no real enforcement mechanism except on how the person looks, so a masculine looking cisgirl will be prevented from using those spaces or greatly harassed for doing so.

Gee, Marci.  I must have missed this too.  Maybe you might refer me to your source

 

6 hours ago, Timber Wolf said:

To force a transitioned trans woman to use a crowded bussy men's room, or vise versa, could put them in great danger. I wish cis gender women would imagine what it would be like being forced to enter a crowded men's room and see every man staring at them. It might also be used to put trans people into "no win" situations.

Again...I am not sure that this is what the APA is proposing.  I just cannot see how vilifying every concern, rather than actually considering the views of the other party is the best way to find workable solutions. I mean seriously, when is the last time you, or anyone here has been asked to provide a birth certificate in order to use the loo. Heck in this country, you don't even need ID to vote so anybody, citizen or not, can vote.....and with no ID required, as many times as they like.

[Timber Wolf]

1 hour ago, Alejandra said:

just cannot see how vilifying every concern, rather than actually considering the views of the other party is the best way to find workable solutions

Hi,

 

I was not trying to villify anybody here. Further down in my reply, I said pretty much this same thing. Having an "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude will be counter productive. This goes for all sides.  But I do see a definate safety issue when it comes to transitioned people being forced to use the restroom corresponding with thier birth certificate label if it's other than thier gender. Another solution has to be found that will be as equitable as possible for all concerned. It is also true, however, that when our rights and safety are being infringed, we should stand up for our rights in a civil way. We don't need to lay down and let a few people walk all over us. In the end, humanity must seek mutual respect for all members.

 

Lots of love,

Timber Wolf?

[Alejandra]

Hi Timber Wolf.  Please forgive me if I was unclear.  I was not trying to imply that you were vilifying anybody. I was searching for a better word to describe what I was perceiving as a pretty total dismissal of the concerns for young women and children, What I meant was that exaggerating the concerns of others, (in this case the APA), without actually considering them is not productive.  I am not seeing anybody asking/demanding a presentation of a birth certificate or that women meet some sort of appearance standard. I live in a seriously redneck/rural part of my state.  A lot of women around here wear no make, wear levis and work or riding boots. I have personally wandered into a ladies room this past summer a seriously hot, sweaty and occasionally muddy or greasy mess. Never even had a second look.