Cut The Branch

[Guest MrAwesome]

I went to church 2 sundays ago, and I was listening to the priest talk. I am not a christian, nor do I consider my self one in any way/shape form. I like it for the philosophical part of it all. And The sermon was about a part from the bible "I am the true vine, and my father, God, is the gardener. He cuts the branches that bare no fruit, and prunes the ones that do so that they become more fruitful" (or something to that effect) And the pastor was saying about how a father who's been a gardener for years takes his son out for the 1st time, and he looks at a tree and point to the biggest, greenest, most beautiful branches. and tells his son those are the ones he needs to cut. And the son is like "Are you SURE you want me to cut those branches, those are the ones the biggest greenest most beautiful ones" and he says yes, because those ones take so much energy from the tree to make, that it sucks the energy from the tree, and it doesn't bare fruit." And the pastor was saying about we are the tree and god is the gardener, He cuts off all the branches that that are the "suckers" that don't bare fruit. and when we try to tell god "No you're not cutting off that branch that's my best branch" and take away the cutters, we're making ourselves the gardener. and Gods going to do whatever he can to cut that branch from us, and he "Disciplines us" until we let him cut off that branch. and our lives become so much better.

And this entire time, I was leaning over to my mom saying "Cut Chuck, cut chuck" (Her now X-Boyfriend) Cause that's what he was a branch that was sucking away her energy and not allowing her to bare fruit. To not have a fruitful life.

So for those of you that have those "Branches" in your life that keep you from baring your "Fruit" Cut them off! Cause things are only going to get worse until you cut off those bad branches... those parts of your life that keep you from baring fruit, from being happy.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Oh...Lewis.... This is a very interesting post. I've heard variants on this same sermon.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to start a religious flame war. However, I am going to be expressing some opinions. As with most things I think about religion, they apply more to religious organizations than to religious people. We can start a new thread in the religion forum if need be.

I was glad to hear you were interested in the philosophical aspect of whatever religion you are. I'm going to spare you "Ainsley's reasons for being uncomfortable with religion". Like I said in my disclaimer, we can go have that discussion over in the spirituality forums if someone is interested.

You make a good point about getting rid of parts of your life that don't "bear fruit". It's cool that someone so young is thinking about that stuff. It'll save you grief in the long run if you take the ideas to heart. I've been supporting unfruitful branches for YEARS. The only trouble I have is being able to pick out which of my branches need to go. The most recent and GIANT branch has been the "I need to appear to be a heterosexual female" branch. I really thought my parents could only love me if that's what I was. Not only was I wrong, I spent years nourishing that branch until it almost killed me. Since you are dealing with your gender identity now, it's going to save you a LOT of trouble. I find myself working out things as an adult that most people start thinking about as teenagers. I knew I was male way back in the day, but it took me a really long time to admit it out loud.

I think it is sometimes easier to see the unfruitful branches on others than it is to see our own (the way maybe you saw that your mother's boyfriend was a drain before she saw it herself). If I'd shared my true feelings with my friends when I was younger, maybe someone else would have said..."Dude, you are a dude. You like girls." It seems so obvious, but when I admitted it to myself it was like a revelation! In fact, when I've come out to people, hardly anyone is surprised. They look at me and go "that makes sense". I think people knew things about me that I didn't know about myself.

The only thing that makes me cringe with that "bearing fruit" thing is that I have heard the verse used as a justification for excluding homosexual people from the church. In this case, bear fruit is taken literally to mean "bear children".

[Guest MrAwesome]

Oh...Lewis.... This is a very interesting post. I've heard variants on this same sermon.

I was glad to hear you were interested in the philosophical aspect of whatever religion you are. I'm going to spare you "Ainsley's reasons for being uncomfortable with religion". Like I said in my disclaimer, we can go have that discussion over in the spirituality forums if someone is interested.

You make a good point about getting rid of parts of your life that don't "bear fruit". It's cool that someone so young is thinking about that stuff. It'll save you grief in the long run if you take the ideas to heart. I've been supporting unfruitful branches for YEARS. The only trouble I have is being able to pick out which of my branches need to go. The most recent and GIANT branch has been the "I need to appear to be a heterosexual female" branch. I really thought my parents could only love me if that's what I was. Not only was I wrong, I spent years nourishing that branch until it almost killed me. Since you are dealing with your gender identity now, it's going to save you a LOT of trouble. I find myself working out things as an adult that most people start thinking about as teenagers. I knew I was male way back in the day, but it took me a really long time to admit it out loud.

I think it is sometimes easier to see the unfruitful branches on others than it is to see our own (the way maybe you saw that your mother's boyfriend was a drain before she saw it herself). If I'd shared my true feelings with my friends when I was younger, maybe someone else would have said..."Dude, you are a dude. You like girls." It seems so obvious, but when I admitted it to myself it was like a revelation! In fact, when I've come out to people, hardly anyone is surprised. They look at me and go "that makes sense". I think people knew things about me that I didn't know about myself.

The only thing that makes me cringe with that "bearing fruit" thing is that I have heard the verse used as a justification for excluding homosexual people from the church. In this case, bear fruit is taken literally to mean "bear children".

*nods* I had to learn when I was depressed to be honest with myself, and "See the branches" And start to cut them. Whether they were habits, behaviors, ways of thinking. I think that the best thing a person can do is sit down, and listen to themselves. Watch how we act, and observe people's reactions. And find the branches that need cut, and cut them! That I think, is one of the few reasons I'm still alive today.

I consider myself an Atheist, in some aspect. but agnostic in the fact that I'm willing to accept the idea that there MIGHT be a higher power, that it's not 100% out of the question.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I'm of the atheist/agnostic bent myself.

Lewis, you speak the truth!

[Guest djay]

I saw the title of this thread and had to take a look since seeing your reply to my post just before I'm glad I took a look, it's really made me think positively. There are branches I need to cut for sure. I'm going to have to cut them before I can be happy because they are sucking the life from me. Thank you so much, I think these words will stick with me

[Guest Benzrathe]

Excellent testimony & reminder, Lewis. Thanks. Its often difficult to "trim" the foundational supports, we've grown accustomed too. Regardless of their true impact on our existences. A crutch can oh so easily go from crucial to comfortable to co-dependency; if we don't remain objective and vigilant.

And Ainsley, I can understand your apprehension when encountering typically "Christian" doctrine. Like most fervent dogma, it too has been bastardized to reflect a subjective cause. But even Jesus denounced the "religious" body for that self same practice as quoted in the book of Mark 7:6-9 (The Message translation)

Jesus answered, "Isaiah was right about frauds like you, hit the bull's-eye in fact:

These people make a big show of saying the right thing,

but their heart isn't in it.

They act like they are worshiping Me,

but they don't mean it.

They just use Me as a cover

for teaching whatever suits their fancy,

Ditching God's command

and taking up the latest fads."

I guess you can tell, I'm a proud son of God. But I'm not rabid about it, and thus can keep the foaming to a minimum. I respect, and can appreciate why others might not be. =]

Benz

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Benz, I certainly have nothing against individual religious people. I think you are quite polite and seem to know your stuff where the Good Book is concerned. It has come through in your posts that you are a proud son of God. Believe it or not, I was raised in a religious home and went to a religious school. There is a lot about Christianity that I am actually nostalgic for. It presents a certain peace that I feel like is closed to me. It's one of those things I wanted to believe with all my heart, but ended up just feeling it was in the same basket with Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. I'm a scientist, a doubter...but certainly not hostile about it. Some of my peers take the anti-religion sentiments to an extreme. I'm kind of like...live and let live.

You know what? Benz, you are just the sort of person I've been looking for. I've tried to have a dialogue with some of my religious friends about a couple of issues. None of them are even willing to talk to me. I'm seriously not looking to pick a fight. I'm just curious.

It's good to know that even Jesus thought churches could be annoying. I'm bitter because I suffered at the hands of the church, not as severely as some here, but I was definitely injured. You see, there is never a more rigid gender binary than at church. I remember how my anger grew every time I was reminded I was on the wrong side of that binary. For me, church was one of those fruitless branches I removed. It told me I was evil and it made me hurt. It seems you got something different out of it.

Hey, if you will, follow me over to the spirituality forums. I've got a couple of honest questions about Bible stuff that are bothering me.

Lewis, you are welcome to come too. You're a thoughtful fellow. What's this about not expressing yourself well in written words. I think you speak loud and clear.

[Guest Benzrathe]

Hey, if you will, follow me over to the spirituality forums. I've got a couple of honest questions about Bible stuff that are bothering me.

Lewis, you are welcome to come too. You're a thoughtful fellow. What's this about not expressing yourself well in written words. I think you speak loud and clear.

Dude, I'm a newb here. Leave a trail of cookie crumbs, man! =]

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Dude, I'm a newb here. Leave a trail of cookie crumbs, man! =]

Over here! Transgender Spirituality

[Guest CharlieRose]

The only thing that makes me cringe with that "bearing fruit" thing is that I have heard the verse used as a justification for excluding homosexual people from the church. In this case, bear fruit is taken literally to mean "bear children".

That's just one interpretation, though. There are lots of other biblical aphorisms involving letting yourself reach your full potential. I seem to recall one that goes something like, "If you light a lamp, you do not cover it but place it high where it can share its light with the whole room." I'm paraphrasing, but basically, do what you need to do to be the best you you can be. I would gather that happiness is an integral part of being the best person you can be.

[Guest MrAwesome]

I saw the title of this thread and had to take a look since seeing your reply to my post just before I'm glad I took a look, it's really made me think positively. There are branches I need to cut for sure. I'm going to have to cut them before I can be happy because they are sucking the life from me. Thank you so much, I think these words will stick with me

I'm glad I was of help. I wish you luck in cutting your branches. If you ever need someone while doing your trimming, I'm always here for ya! I care about my fellow trans brothers and sisters. (See I didn't leave you out Lizzy and Sally )

[Guest leo]

lewis i love your post

and the 'Cut Chuck' bit made me laugh loads

but i do agree with you

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Guys

Just a comment here. For not being religious you are a better thing, you are spiritual in the moral sense. GOOD for you all!

And I always say the true 'religeous' thing is in your head. The 'church' is not a building. And GOD is the CREATOR, not male or female or whwtever - just is.

Christians profess to believe in the teachings of Christ, but don't always try very hard. In any event, those teachings have been interpreted for 2000 years and are all warped out of context anyway.

My favotite fantasy of Christianity is Jesus coming back to earth (He said he would eventually) and looking around. He says "Hey people! You got it all WRONG! What part about 'love one another" do you not understand?"

So keep on keeping on. Some of you probably are pretty close to getting it right!

Lizzy

Hey Mr. A - we love it when you include the girls!

[Sally]

I am always amazed that so much of the Bible is taken as fact when it has been edited and translated so many times.

The demands for couples to have children came from a time when the children of people not well off enough to own slaves worked the fields.

Yes the Jews owned slaves after all of that time in Egypt the ones who acquired wealth and power followed the practices of the Romans.

Later it was important for increasing the numbers in the church because it was a political and actual military power during the time of the Crusades.

The Jewish bans on shell fish and pork were for health reasons - they spoiled and would kill you rather quickly in the desert.

It is time to seperate the truth from the tradition - but who decides on what is really true?

That is up to each of us.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest Leigh]

you rock little bro... you never cease to amaze me. you're insightful, intelligent, funny... just to name a few.

i have to say, it's been awhile since i've been to church (like you i am more of the agnostic type, though i'm also a bit of a mystic)..

maybe i should dust off an old bible and see what little bits of good are in there.

also, if you like philosophy, let me know and i can give you some recommendations for some good books.

peace&love

[Guest MrAwesome]

you rock little bro... you never cease to amaze me. you're insightful, intelligent, funny... just to name a few.

i have to say, it's been awhile since i've been to church (like you i am more of the agnostic type, though i'm also a bit of a mystic)..

maybe i should dust off an old bible and see what little bits of good are in there.

also, if you like philosophy, let me know and i can give you some recommendations for some good books.

peace&love

of course I like philosophy. I'm thinking about taking a class in philosophy and psychology when I' 16 and can take college courses.

[Guest OneOutOfnOne]

I also enjoy the philosophy that religion has to offer. I'm not religious, but I politely attend church with my family when I am with them on a Sunday, and hearing these sorts of lessons makes it worth going.

As far as cutting unnecessary branches, I do this with friendships now. While in high school, I had hundreds of acquaintances who to some degree remained a part of my social network simply because I saw them rather frequently. When I departed the setting, I lamented my isolation, until realizing that the extraneous social connections didn't benefit me in any way. I used to offer my life story on a platter to anyone who would entertain the idea of listening. Now I wait for people to ask me, and such people are the ones I may call friends.

[Guest Leigh]

of course I like philosophy. I'm thinking about taking a class in philosophy and psychology when I' 16 and can take college courses.

alright. well, if you want spiritual/religious philosophy there are some pretty basic places to start (in my opinion anyway). you'll want to read some Confucius, and some books on Buddhism (what kind is really up to you) and Taoism... i'm not sure where you get your reading materials, but if you have a library near by you could see what kinds of books they have. it's usually best to start with a simple descriptive book when you're studying a new religion, and from there you look further into what interests you. i would also suggest doing some reading about karma, reincarnation, etc, in the Hindu faith... i'm a bit partial to eastern practices, if you can't tell.

also some Socrates (maybe the Trail and Death of Socrates, or the Phaedo), they touch on some interesting topics relating to the 'soul'

if you're into political/social philosophy then there are some basic philosophers you should look at...

i would say skip Plato (he's very...outdated. i think anyone who devotes a section of their philosohpy to why slavery is OK shouldn't be taught in schools anymore...). Hobbes is very anti-humanist, but he's also willing to admit to the darkness in humanity more thany many other philosophers. Locke is a middle man, kind of a bore, if you ask me. i'm partial to Rousseau, but his theories may be a little to good to be ture. Kant's "what is enlightenment" is pretty much essential.

i also love Marx and Engles, but i would suggest starting with the "Paris Manuscripts of 1844" before reading "the Communist Manifesto"

i also love Jean-Paul Sartre and Friderich Nietzsche...but i think i've given you a pretty good list already...so. i'll leave you to it.

peace&love

your big bro

[Guest Pól_Eire]

alright. well, if you want spiritual/religious philosophy there are some pretty basic places to start (in my opinion anyway). you'll want to read some Confucius, and some books on Buddhism (what kind is really up to you) and Taoism... i'm not sure where you get your reading materials, but if you have a library near by you could see what kinds of books they have. it's usually best to start with a simple descriptive book when you're studying a new religion, and from there you look further into what interests you. i would also suggest doing some reading about karma, reincarnation, etc, in the Hindu faith... i'm a bit partial to eastern practices, if you can't tell.

also some Socrates (maybe the Trail and Death of Socrates, or the Phaedo), they touch on some interesting topics relating to the 'soul'

if you're into political/social philosophy then there are some basic philosophers you should look at...

i would say skip Plato (he's very...outdated. i think anyone who devotes a section of their philosohpy to why slavery is OK shouldn't be taught in schools anymore...). Hobbes is very anti-humanist, but he's also willing to admit to the darkness in humanity more thany many other philosophers. Locke is a middle man, kind of a bore, if you ask me. i'm partial to Rousseau, but his theories may be a little to good to be ture. Kant's "what is enlightenment" is pretty much essential.

i also love Marx and Engles, but i would suggest starting with the "Paris Manuscripts of 1844" before reading "the Communist Manifesto"

i also love Jean-Paul Sartre and Friderich Nietzsche...but i think i've given you a pretty good list already...so. i'll leave you to it.

peace&love

your big bro

NobleLight's given you a pretty solid list there, but I'd like to add to it. I have a more western slant on things than he does, I guess. You're fifteen and a lot of these texts are pretty intense, but you seem like a smart kid. I'd suggest going to the library, grabbing a bunch of these, and skimming until you find something interesting, and then going back and reading more closely. Don't worry about understanding every sentence, just kind of let it happen and enjoy it.

One, I would say Plato is very worth reading because so much of later philosophy is based on ideas that are in his work. NobleLight, if you want to, we can talk about the slavery section in Plato's Republic (I assume this is what you're referring to) sometime, because I think it's a lot more complicated than just "slavery is OK." The Republic also has the advantage of being really short and written in dialogue form, so it's pretty easy to understand. Aristotle's "Nicomachean Ethics" is pretty cool once you get used to his writing style (that's generally true for all of these philosophers, they're cool once you get used to how they write). I really liked Thomas Aquinas, I'd suggest checking him out for a more western approach to religion. Likewise, Luther is worth reading and is pretty easy to understand. Calvin (to me anyway) basically seemed like a ego-maniacal crackpot. Hobbes and Rousseau are fun. I'd skip Locke and skim Kant. Adam Smith is worth reading (not just The Wealth of Nations, he wrote other stuff too). Hegel is good stuff and his Intro to the Philosophy of History is only like 100 pages. John Stuart Mill is one of my favorites. For gender stuff, you may find de Beauvoir's The Second Sex interesting. She's actually kind of surprisingly chauvinist in a lot of subtle ways. Have you read any Freud?

My favorites are probably Aristotle, Aquinas, Mill, and Foucault (Discipline and Punish may be one of the best books I've ever read). If I had to pick one, I'd probably tell you to check out Foucault.

Happy reading,

-Pól

[Guest Irielle]

Some branches are big and green and beautiful and the birds sit on them and sing and nest and raise families. Caterpillars turn into butterflies on them and bees make honey. Spiders spin their webs that shine in the morning dew. Squirrels and chipmunks, eagles and hawks are there. They give shade on a hot day and shelter from the storm. The rustle of the leaves is a lullaby on a sleepy afternoon.

Many fruits are poisonous.

Just a thought..............

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

All I can add is this: enjoy philosophy but do NOT become a philosopher. The job prospects are grim. Just FYI.

Experimental philosophy, now THAT'S a whole different ballgame (job prospects still aren't so good). I know of some cool work in experimental philosophy. Check out the Knobe Effect. Joshua Knobe Wiki