Female Friends

[Guest Neuro]

Since I have not officially "Come out" yet, I am not comfortable with the idea of having many friends In Real Life. But the one or two that I do have, are female.

I love my friends with all my heart. They are like the little sisters I never had. But being female, their brains are "Wired differently"... In the most unoffensive way I can put this --They are GIRLS.

XD Let me back myself up here. I am supportive of my friends. But they are not supportive of THEMSELVES.

They constantly get depressed about how 'fat' they think they are (Which they are far from it, at least to me). Wanting to run away from home because they argue with their mother about staying out late. Crying about how awful the play is going to be in drama class (Which I have to wear a dress for...) and how somehow, not having a boyfriend makes their lives that much worse, incomplete; and worthless.

I know that my friends have problems, and that they are important. But that they are young, and it is also hormonal (which they tell me all the time.) I have the most difficult time dealing with tons of feelings at once... It is too much of a roller-coaster for me.

They somehow trust me, and 'rant' to me to feel better because I listen... but no matter what I say, I can't seem to make the 'girlfriend' trust connection that a real girl would have. I feel like I'm letting them down.

Whenever they call and are depressed about something I can't understand why it is a big deal, I feel like an awful person--because I care, I really do. But the moment she says "Drama happened with so-and-so today," I feel sick. I know there's nothing I can do to help.

Maybe you ladies have some advice, on how to gain sympathy or a better shoulder to lean on. But having such 'dramatic friends,' really takes a toll on me; because *boards selfish train* I have a lot of problems to deal with, too.

How can someone keep their treasured friends and help them get through their problems, when they are basically living a lie of being their 'girlfriend pal buddy/deal'?

[EVAN_DESU]

Ah man, I've had the same problems. >.<

It kind of gets annoying with all the drama stuff, but they're your friends so you've got to do SOMETHING.

And the least is listen. Listen to them with all the drama they bring, it might seem hard, but you've got to.

Once you really come out you should tell them that you don't feel comfortable with them talking about certain things because you just don't understand it, and you wouldn't have much useful input or even any kind of input at all to put into their problems, and hopefully they'll understand.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Welcome to the world of maleness. It's not just you with this problem. I've got it too. The trade off is that girls don't feel as close to you when they can't share their weepy, emotional stuff. If you aren't able to listen, and this doesn't mean listening in the biological "your aural machinery is operating" sense, they will put you in the "guy friend" category. You can still be close, but it won't be the same. The kind of listening girls want requires certain responses during listening. They are very good at detecting it when you aren't doing the right kind of listening.

I can't do the right listening. Even when I was pre-T, pre-Trans, pre-everything, I wasn't good at it. I didn't have close female friends for this reason. It wasn't because I didn't want them, I just didn't "click" with them. When I started graduate school, I ended up making some close female friends. They'd expect the same kind of "real listening" out of me and I couldn't give it to them. When I came out to everyone, they didn't expect it of me anymore. It made me feel less stressed, but I wasn't as close with them. The quality of the relationship just changed.

Oh...another error I make when talking to female friends is that I try to help with their problems. They say something. I tell them how I think they can make the problem go away. That's not what they want. They want you to rehash the problem with them, have a sympathetic emotional reaction, and then rehash it some more. This is part of how you listen to girls. This is the listening they want from you. I am not good at it. I can do it for a few minutes, but that's it.

As for how to cope, I'm still working on that. Maybe the ladies can offer some hints for me too. The way I see it now, I've got these options:

1. Get better at pretending to listen.

2. Explain that I don't really understand what they are telling me and just offer some other kind of support...whatever that is.

Eventually they won't tell you as much stuff. They'll go find someone else. So.......... there's a trade off, ear pain for closeness. Less ear pain = qualitative changes in the kind of relationship you have with female friends (less closeness).

[Guest Evan_J]

^ (*pointing upwards) What Ainsley said.

[Guest Cody_T]

Oh...another error I make when talking to female friends is that I try to help with their problems. They say something. I tell them how I think they can make the problem go away. That's not what they want. They want you to rehash the problem with them, have a sympathetic emotional reaction, and then rehash it some more. This is part of how you listen to girls. This is the listening they want from you. I am not good at it. I can do it for a few minutes, but that's it.

I believe you've just solved one of the mysteries of my life...

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I believe you've just solved one of the mysteries of my life...

It took me like 30 years of research to figure that out. Who knows what you can discover if you build on what I've learned? You might get the Nobel Prize for Relating to Women.

Yup... Whatever you do, DON'T OFFER THEM A SOLUTION!! They don't want it.

[Guest Stuv]

Oh...another error I make when talking to female friends is that I try to help with their problems. They say something. I tell them how I think they can make the problem go away. That's not what they want. They want you to rehash the problem with them, have a sympathetic emotional reaction, and then rehash it some more. This is part of how you listen to girls. This is the listening they want from you. I am not good at it. I can do it for a few minutes, but that's it.

Gee, you said it. Trying to help was once a near-constant mistake of mine. And I see in the time I've been replying, other folks have pointed out the same!

[Guest Drew]

haha, Ainsley, you're a genius.

Yup... Whatever you do, DON'T OFFER THEM A SOLUTION!! They don't want it.

^ this is so true. i was always (and continue to be) the awkward one who's no good at dealing with emotions, so i'd just offer a solution and always get the same response, or some version of it "yeah, i guess that could work..."

honestly, i think it's biology. whenever my girlfriend will come to talk to me about girl drama type things all i can seem to do is stammer something or other and offer a hug.

i'm sorry i have no useful advice. but good luck.

[Guest Neuro]

D'oh, that's what's so confusing!! I offered help, to the point of taking her out of her house or even running away; a solution was not wanted--more like, councelling?

They want listening, not a solution (I am a direct 'So sue her!' kinda guy) --Hmm, I will have to practice listening and agreeing... I enjoy listening; but I can only do it so long without getting anxiety, huh? Support is just what they need. They are my friends, it is the least I can give! ^^ Thanks, everyone.

This seems like it would be much easier once I tell them I'm a man--oh, what am I saying? XD;;;;

[Guest bronx]

I totally agree with everyone is saying , but not all females are the same. Case in point, one of my best friends is a female, I've known her since I was 15 and we know everthing about eachother. She doesn't like drama and gossip. she's into sports and can drink me under the table. She carries herself like a lady and at times she thinks like a guy. She believes in be loyal to her friends. I think she's rare so I hold on to her. So not everyone is crazy so to say but for those that are emotionally needy I just well I really can't help them. I guess that's why I only have one female friend and my wife.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I totally agree with everyone is saying , but not all females are the same. Case in point, one of my best friends is a female, I've known her since I was 15 and we know everthing about eachother. She doesn't like drama and gossip. she's into sports and can drink me under the table. She carries herself like a lady and at times she thinks like a guy. She believes in be loyal to her friends. I think she's rare so I hold on to her. So not everyone is crazy so to say but for those that are emotionally needy I just well I really can't help them. I guess that's why I only have one female friend and my wife.

There are definitely exceptions! I know some women who are exceptions as well. I'm only speaking about "on the average". It's just good for these young fellas to know what's up so they won't be surprised when a girl gets mad at them for trying to help. It was SO confusing when friends would get mad at me when I thought I was being all uber-supportive.

You're a lucky man, Angel. Thanks for pointing out the caveat I should have mentioned up front!

[Guest My_Genesis]

I was just going to post something about this! I decided not to because it ended up being too long-winded lol.

but yeah im having the same problem. like i feel really awkward when im in my room and my roommate is crying and im just ignoring her because im better off doing that than opening my mouth

drama really kinda gets on my nerves..im not that close to any girls to begin with, just because like stranded said, if you dont listen to their..whatever their issues are, you're not really one of their groupies lol. so i just become kind of someone who's watching the whole thing, and if i find THAT hard to put up with sometimes...

i say just dont get involved with it unless it's someone who doesn't get caught up in drama...especially someone you're crushing on that doesn't get caught up in drama.

[Guest Martin]

Most of my friends are women. One of them has told me that she can't "girl-talk" with me (she used to do that with a gay friend of hers, so it's not just girls she does that with). However, my best friend confides in me a LOT. When she vents, I listen without interrupting, remind her that she can get through whatever it is because she's strong and is loved and has overcome a lot of things already, ask some questions, offer empathetic comments (anything from "ooo" to "I've gone through something similar. This one time...), hug her at appropriate times, and ask her what I can do (or offer to do something specific). I usually only give advice if it's asked for. This approach seems to work pretty well. She seems to feel supported, and she continues to talk to me. Obviously my exact approach doesn't work for all girls - otherwise that other girl wouldn't have said she can't talk to me. However, it has worked in several relationships. By the way, knowing how to do this tends to help me build friendships with women.

Now, if only I could make more guy friends...

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

In a way, I maybe even feel "afraid" to be too accessible for "girl-talk". A lot of my female friends know my past. I like to make it clear that there is no difference between me and other guys. People have made the assumption that I am "different" and should be able to do more "girl-talk" than other guys. It's just not true! I didn't do that stuff before transition, and I certainly am not any more likely to do it now. There seems to be a bit of a misconception, at least with some girls, that transguys are supposed to be a kinder, gentler, more understanding breed of guy. Now, I may be a little more understanding of some things, but that doesn't mean they should assume that I want to engage in "girl-talk". I don't.

However, just to return back to the discussion of "how women tend to be, on average". There are some gender differences, possibly mainly influenced by culture, where women want sympathy and men want action. When I've offered a simple "here's what you need to do" in response to what a female friend is telling me, there have been cases where I was perceived as invalidating what they were saying. The girl thought that I was saying it and suggesting that's what she should have done to begin with. I wasn't saying that at all. I felt deeply upset because she was upset and I was TRYING to help. Offering a solution = helping. Listening = doing nothing.

I do realize that sometimes all they want is for us to listen though.

Complex issues...

[Guest CharlieRose]

Drama... my friends are pretty level-headed. (All my friends are female except for my one gay friend, and he's, uh, yeah, pretty feminine)

But the thing that kills me is the DIETS.

"I'm so fat. I can feel the fat bulging when I sit down." "___, I can see your ribs. You're not fat." "I just have to diet constantly to maintain a reasonable weight."

One of them, no joke, has for lunch like every day: A half a bag of cheerios, nothing on them, a tiny box of cous cous, which might as well be plain rice, and a tiny box of cucumber slices and celery. There must be like 90 calories in it. And she's a STICK. What happened to women wanting to look like this? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...enus_detail.jpg

I told one of these friends about how I found women who are curvier could actually be really beautiful and mentioned how pretty all the women in Victorian age painting were. And she's like, "Oh, I just think they all look like fat pigs."

Fat pigs. Aphrodite is a fat pig, I guess.

My friends are intelligent, reasonably normal people, but for some reason when it comes to body fat they all go insane. (My gay friend, too!) *pours butter on bacon and chews it angrily*

[Guest Alex2]

I definitely agree. This is cause for confusion. It does seem to be a prevailing trend, men tending toward action and women toward validation. The advice was helpful, worth putting into practice. I just wish I had more patience for this stuff than I do. My main problem is that it's so illogical. Not wanting a solution to a problem doesn't make a lot of sense to me, especially when some of this stuff could be fixed.

The other thing I find is that it can be hard to figure out what women are feeling or why, and often times it seems like I'm supposed to just know somehow. My roommates don't verbalize this stuff, ever. Mostly I get updates second hand whenever someone's peed off or depressed and I was supposed to have done something about it. Only thing is, it usually seems like it's coming out of left field. I just wish that they would either say what they were bothered about or not expect other people to miraculously know. Then again, it could just be the girls I live with.

[Guest My_Genesis]

The other thing I find is that it can be hard to figure out what women are feeling or why, and often times it seems like I'm supposed to just know somehow. My roommates don't verbalize this stuff, ever. Mostly I get updates second hand whenever someone's peed off or depressed and I was supposed to have done something about it. Only thing is, it usually seems like it's coming out of left field. I just wish that they would either say what they were bothered about or not expect other people to miraculously know. Then again, it could just be the girls I live with.

Exactly what my situation is like!

[Guest My_Genesis]

PS if you're anything like me I'd recommend not trying too hard because you'll end up guessing wrong at least half the time what they're feeling and it backfires at you and then you just feel like an insensitive, rude a**.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Dual personality checking in here - MTF, me - grin

Oh...another error I make when talking to female friends is that I try to help with their problems. They say something. I tell them how I think they can make the problem go away. That's not what they want. They want you to rehash the problem with them, have a sympathetic emotional reaction, and then rehash it some more. This is part of how you listen to girls. This is the listening they want from you. I am not good at it. I can do it for a few minutes, but that's it.

EXACTLY

You as FTM have always been hardwired male. They see you one way, you react another. They are hardwired 'girl.'

Read a really corny book - Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars. It explains it perfectly.

Women want empathy - we as women are repetative and whinney - we want you to say 'awwwww'

Men are problem solvers - you in a male mindset want to say 'deal with it! have you tried (then give a soultion).'

A woman talking to a man and hearing a soulution given back, then walks away disappointed. "He just doesn't get it! I am so sad/upset/hurt/angry, and he doesn't care.

A man talking to a woman and giving a soultion, then walks aways thinking, "She is just so screwed up! Why doesn't she just do something about her problems, and she always ignores what I tell her to do."

Thats what's happening..

SO to keep girl friends - bite your tongue - and LISTEN! If they ask what you think, then you can say, "i really don't knoe... but..." And then explain it so they think it is their idea. Works well - they will love you.

And you notice how MALE I explained this to you?

In my female mode - "Don't you think that women just want to be understood? Perhaps if you kept that perspective it would help you tremendously with your relationships. We just want to be taken for what we are, and we value your opinions, but we also just want to make certain it is the right thing to do."

Lizzy

[Guest Neuro]

Wow! Great advice, Elizabeth K!! I will definitely keep that in mind.

[Guest Pól_Eire]

IMO,

If they're venting to you, just agree with them. Don't actually say anything beyond two or three words unless specifically asked to. Most of the time, they just want to talk at someone. They don't really want to hear what you think because fixing their problem shortens the amount of time that they can complain about it. The complaining/overanalyzing is a pleasurable experience (why this is pleasurable, I have no idea), and they want to prolong it.

If they're venting because of you , don't say anything until they run out of steam, just maintain eye contact. And then apologize, as sincerely as you can, once. This is more useful with girls you're dating than girls you're friends with, but it works fine just the same.

Stay detached if you can, that'd make it take less of an emotional toll on you.

And you're not really "living a lie." You're their friend. Even if they think you're a girl, that's what's more important.

Pól

[Guest Martin]

My friends and family who are girls and women do not avoid fixing problems so that they can spend more time complaining. However, they do crave validation. For that matter - so do I, and so does just about everyone. Have you ever been upset because someone used the wrong pronoun for you? Chances are you felt that way because they were invalidating your gender identity. Or have you been upset because girls want to treat you like a women or an other rather than a man? Again, that's invalidating.

How people want validation varies. When someone has a problem, there are two things going on. One, there's the actual problem. Two, there's the emotional reaction to that problem. For some people, they feel validated when their problem - and only their problem - get addressed. Other people feel validated when only the emotional reaction gets addressed. Most people want a combination, though not necessarily 50-50. And for most people, what they want depends on the situation.

For example, if I'm extremely depressed or anxious, I want support but only suggestions if they're really good. Most suggestions aren't because most people don't know what it's like living with those illnesses, don't know how I respond to things, and thus don't have any idea of what will work. So in most cases, I want people to shut-up and listen, and maybe remind me that I'm okay because chances are I've forgotten that. Advice sounds like they are treating me like a child. However, if I'm struggling with a computer problem, I want someone to either fix it for me or tell me how to in language I can understand. I do not want someone to adress my feelings; I just want the stupid machine to work. Asking me how I feel about it is going to make me feel invalidated because the actual problem is ignored.

The women and girls that I know all sometimes want solutions - and fast. Othertimes, advice sounds like you think they're too stupid to figure it out themselves. And sometimes they want to be heard first and then given advise. Or instead of suggestions, they want someone to bounce ideas off of so they can figure it out themselves. In order to give them what they want and need, you need to be able to LISTEN to them and ask the right questions. They ALWAYS know better what they need right now and those needs can change. In other words, they're human - not some strange species that cannot be understood and can be dismissed because they are different.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

You make excellent points, Martin. When we speak in absolutes, we don't do anyone justice. You're right, we all want validation, just in different ways and to varying degrees. I guess the answer to all of this would be to handle each individual situation with sensitivity.

Wow... I feel kinda bad. I was just preaching at a friend and telling him that it's disrespectful to assume women don't have the same basic needs as anyone else. Now I'm a hypocrite.

[Guest Neuro]

Mm, in the short term--All women, like all men; or anyone in between--are different. We all have different mindsets, and ways of asking for help.

I think different from a lot of people, I would know that. I don't think a lot for the most part (probably) and am kind of clueless, obsessive over small things, and dumb. When I want a problem solved, I want it straight to me; if I am in trouble or sad, I either ask someone about it if they can help or keep it to myself because I do not want to trouble them.

Maybe I should not have titled this 'female friends,' but 'friends in general.' I don't have a lot of friends! D8 I am used to playing make-believe by myself and writing stories. The few friends I have now are female, and think different than I do. (Maybe it's 'cause I'm a fool, not a man).

But, I do not understand people who are involved in 'high emotional showy drama' and cry a lot, because I don't feel a lot of things that way. And I hate to cry... And they talk to me about things I cannot help, and it makes me sad for them. Even if they were men, I would be confused and sad. I just wish that I could help in some way other than being worried to the point of fearing for my stomach lining (ulcers from stress=NOTFUN)

People who are crying... make me want to just hug them and do something, I cannot stand by and just listen >_< it is not a solution to my precious friends sadness! *wailing now* XD It would be nice to understand humans better.

[Guest _Michael]

Everyone here just hit the nail on the head perfectly. I've always been willing to listen to my straight female friend's problems, but I automatically try to offer solutions instead of just sympathy which is obviously not what they want. There are a few articles floating around on the internets about how the documented "flight or fight" reaction to stress is actually not the entire story - being that males have historically monopolized the research field and most of the data has come from experiments on the reactions of men, the either/or is a very male reaction. The reaction exists in females, but with a third reaction: "Run to friends". Most women love running circles with a conversation for the sole purpose of venting because it's amazing stress release.

I try to offer a middle ground when talking to my friends - I let them vent, but if they start repeating the same thing over and over again in one conversation, I switch to "solution mode" and just straight up ask them to try that and see if it works. Sometimes they do, sometimes they hang up the phone then just call another friend and start the process over.

All of that bs is part of why I love women