Masculinity In Film

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Obviously movies aren't often renowned for their value as factual resources. However, I believe that there is something to be learned from almost any source. Even if the content of the movie is junk, sometimes we can step back and think about what's going on from a "higher" level...a "metalevel" if you want to sound all stuffy and smart. Movies are often a snapshot of cultural ideas and purveyors of "memes" (Wikipedia: Meme). Memes are the idea version of genes, and they get passed along and multiply.

Since I didn't get exposed to masculine socialization in the traditional way, I learned some things from popular media. I didn't necessarily take movies at face value, but I did distill ideas from them and then watch for how those things played out in real life. I'm a skilled observer of behavior. Anyway, here are some films (some of which are R rated and not for everyone) that I think make some interesting points.

Fight Club (book, 1996; film, 1999)

Rocky (1976)

The Graduate (book, 1963; movie, 1967)

Stand By Me (1986)

Gran Torino (2008)

High Fidelity (book, 1995; movie, 2000)

Gladiator (2000)

Cool Hand Luke (1967)

Dead Poets Society (1989)

I'm not saying that I agree with the ideas in every one of these, or any of them. I just think they all illustrate some noteworthy things about masculinity and coming of age. This list is admittedly pretty culturally biased, as is most of the standard fare coming out of Hollywood. If anyone would like to add to the list, please feel free.

What movies do you guys (or girls if y'all are reading) think of as making statements about masculinity? Are there any that affected you or really made you think about what it means to be a man? I didn't give reasons why I listed the movies I did, but we can talk about that stuff later, if anyone's interested.

[Guest Pól_Eire]

Some classics:

The Maltese Falcon (1941)

Casablanca (1942)

Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (1969)

Rebel Without a Cause (1955)

A Streetcar Named Desire (1951)

Some newer ones:

The Departed (2006)

Saving Private Ryan (1998)

The Sure Thing (1985)

Ocean's Eleven (2001)

Road to Perdition (2002)

The Untouchables (1987)

Any James Bond movie.

Likewise, I don't agree with the statements about masculinity made by all of these films, but I think they certainly speak to the subject. I'm not sure any of these were particularly 'influential' to me, but I think I learned something about socialization from each of these.

Pól

[Sally]

Quite possibly the saddest depiction of a masculine figure was "Citizen Cane" - a life full of bluster and bravado that ended alone and in all meaningless.

One of the best examples of underplayed masculinity in a movie was "Romancing the Stone", where he was only as brave or as strong as he had to be when he had to be - the rest of the time he was just a relaxed, happy individual.

You are better off not aiming for the Rocky or Rambo brand of masculinity - look more to Pierce Brosnan who came of as masculine even in the embarrassing outfit at the end of "Momma Mia" - sensitive but with an inner strength - that is a man!

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Pól, we definitely don't need to agree with what a movie says to be able to learn from it. I've seen things that made me cringe and still taken something away from it.

Yeah, not all of the movies I saw were "influential" either. Mostly they were just movies I saw that made me go... "Hmmm...."

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

One thing I am learning is that masculinity can be a lonely place. You have your bros, but it isn't exactly the same. I think I have always occupied a space between traditional masculine and feminine. It isn't that male friends aren't supportive, it's a different kind of support. You can't ask for help as openly or as easily. I don't know. It's complicated.

I have an idea of the kind of masculinity I aspire to. It definitely isn't Rocky or Rambo, though I think there are some traits that one could "borrow" from those examples...from Rocky anyway. My father and grandfather are kind of my "patterns" for masculinity. Both of them are quiet and not the "bruiser" types. Bookish dudes, but still plenty manly. My dad is particularly cool because he isn't trapped by a lot of the stereotypically masculine junk. He does what he wants. I've seen a lot of men "trapped" by their preconceptions of what it means to be a man. It really is sad. I definitely didn't transition to go from one kind of trapped to another!

[Guest Cody_T]

I love Fight Club for the line "a generation of men raised by women".

For masculinity... I think that if it's easy, it's not worth emulating. Like, all the negative stereotypically masculine qualities of misogyny, gluttony, sloth, pride, greed, etc (I went with the deadly sins thing cause I thought it'd be cool so you kind of have to read into these) , messiness, are super easy to do. Getting up and fighting for something you believe in, for someone you love, that's hard. Sacrificing your time (and your hair), working under major stress to provide for a family, to give them everything you possibly can, that's hard. Bravery in the face of utter annihilation, that's hard. Taking responsibility for yourself, for the people you love. Comforting someone who needs it when you're not comfortable. Putting other people first. Making the right decision. All of that's the hard stuff. You can go ahead and trash women, your room, your appearance, the kitchen, or you can step up and develop the inner strength that lets you do the harder things, the parts where you're putting yourself in the position of strength whether or not you think you possess that strength. It's kind of the distinction between boy and man. Boy will act super masculine until something bad happens, a man will be himself and step up when needed. At least that's how I see it.

Sorry, hope that wasn't too off topic.

As for movies... wow, I don't watch enough movies. Fight Club, of course, but Ainsley already got that one. Probably the best book to movie adaptation ever. High Fidelity is really a good book to movie adaptation too and I think I know why you put that up.

Okay, these are sad examples but I still think that they're somewhat applicable:

Gone in 60 Seconds (2000)

Finding Neverland (2004)

The Brave (1997)

What's Eating Gilbert Grape (1993)

Pirates of the Carribean (2003) (I swear, it really does fit)

I think that pretty much sums up my viewing tastes- Johnny Depp and cars. I figured F&F isn't serious enough, although Dominic Toretto is a kind of interesting look at masculinity...

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Cody, what you said about masculinity is right on! It sounds like you have a pretty good grip on things.

I think those movies are good examples. We just watched What's Eating Gilbert Grape the other day. It depressed everyone except me. I still think it's a good movie.

You are right, Dominic Toretto is an interesting character. I want to see the new F&F movie...and STAR TREK. I bought some Cheez-Its solely because there was a thing to mail away and get a Star Trek t-shirt. Can you say "dork"? Yes. It's true and I don't deny it.

[Guest Pól_Eire]

Cody, that was really smart and not OT at all, no need to apologize for something like that!

Sally, Citizen Kane and Romancing the Stone -- two great films. I was really glad you mentioned them. I don't think Pierce Brosnan looked particularly masculine at the end of Mamma Mia though, I think he looked a complete eejit who was looking for a hole in the ground to hide in. If he had looked that he was completely comfortable, he actually might have seemed more masculine to me, I think. Hmm...

Ainsley, the loneliness is definitely something that I've found to be true as I transition. It's interesting that you seem to have picked up on that through film. Which films in particular exemplify that the most to you?

It's that quiet strength that Cody described that comes closest to defining a man, but the more I think about what I think of as "masculine," a lot of those traits are less gendered even though I associate them with maleness. What I mean is that they're qualities that I have associated with masculinity, but you don't need to be a man, or even be masculine to have them.

A lot of the classics that I listed speak in particular to that social responsibility. You have things and people to take care of, and you have to follow through on them. You've to keep your word, and you have your different roles to the people who depend on you, whether that's as a father, a son, or a husband. In some of the newer films I listed, they speak more to sacrifice. I'm still thinking about this and not quite ready to post on it, but I think there's a certain level of sacrifice that's tied into masculinity. Another theme I see across the board in the newer films I listed is that sometimes you have to take a chance and to do that and not run away from it is part of that quiet strength that Cody described.

I also probably watch too many films, these are all good films that I'd recommend to almost anyone. Like I said before, I don't like all the portrayals of masculinity in these films, but there are certainly things you can learn from each them ("A Streetcar Named Desire" is a prime example of this).

Pól

[Guest CharlieRose]

Masculine humor:

Monty Python (anything, pretty much)

Dr. Strangelove

Catch-22

Perhaps rather nerdy and old examples but I know that my uncles loved them when they came out. Dr. Strangelove and Catch-22 have an interesting satirical/ridiculous sense of humor that if I think about it is kind of sexist (all the women are ditzes, pretty much, their sole purpose to give pleasure to the *real* characters, ie. the men) but it doesn't bother me 'cause it's so darn funny. ("Baby, I told you not to call me here! My president needs me!") But, it's understandable... they're both from the early sixties.

Christopher Nolan also directs rather guy-centric films that I know a lot of guys like. (I like 'em, too)

Batman Begins and The Dark Knight

Insomnia

The Prestige

Memento

Yeah, also another person you don't want to try to think about in a feminist context. All the female characters (except 1) are spider-women or they die and their husbands have to avenge them. But they're really awesome and on the whole rather brilliant.

It's funny, I always had only girl friends, and so when I started socializing with guys more I was kind of surprised that they liked a lot of the kind of films I did. (especially the kind that my female friends hated. Edward Scissorhands is not gory!)

And from the complete opposite side of the table.... Some of the men who made me a bit more comfortable with myself are in Pride and Prejudice and The Phantom of the Opera. You can be passionate, sensitive, perhaps have a bit of low self-esteem, and do you know what happens then? Chicks dig you. Heck yes.

[Guest Cody_T]

You are right, Dominic Toretto is an interesting character. I want to see the new F&F movie

Go now! Twas amazing. Although I think you won't enjoy Paul Walker quite as much as I did... but there's still a lot of car racing, explosions, and guns. Oh and the most awesome crashes. Like... yeah, everyone just go see it. It's what you'd expect from it basically (bad effects and worse acting) but it's still fun.

It's that quiet strength that Cody described that comes closest to defining a man, but the more I think about what I think of as "masculine," a lot of those traits are less gendered even though I associate them with maleness. What I mean is that they're qualities that I have associated with masculinity, but you don't need to be a man, or even be masculine to have them.

That's actually what I was thinking as I wrote that. They've become associated with masculinity because I think we were better equipped (and perhaps it's physically, but that's why there's T) to take on these roles, and so men were expected to, back when men and women weren't considered equal. Although women are moving into more traditionally masculine roles, there's actual social pressure on men to take on these roles whereas women are more able to do so at their leisure. But I don't think that masculinity and femininity, at least in the broadened categories that we have them in are actually gendered. We have (mostly) gendered tendencies or actual secondary sex characteristics (that's why there's T) that may make us more likely to be fit for the masculine or feminine role, but that's more a societal reflection of our interpretations of gender than an actual gender thing. How much you wanna bet if men were expected to take care of kids that we'd be watching Mary Poppins instead. (except it'd be Gary Poppins )

Oh and Stranded, wanna go into why you picked your movies? I'm curious as to what you had to say about the ones I've seen.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Go now! Twas amazing. Although I think you won't enjoy Paul Walker quite as much as I did... but there's still a lot of car racing, explosions, and guns. Oh and the most awesome crashes. Like... yeah, everyone just go see it. It's what you'd expect from it basically (bad effects and worse acting) but it's still fun.

A lot of people I know are movie snobs. When you get around all these edumacated folks, they get all stuck up. "Oh...I saw where that film won at Sundance. It's mahvalous...you must see it."

I, for one, enjoy a nice, unapologetic race car film...with plenty of bad acting, machismo, and other cheap thrills. I will definitely go see F&F, right after I see Star Trek and X-Men Origins: Wolverine.

You probably did enjoy Paul Walker more than I will. There's plenty for me to look at in that movie too!

Oh and Stranded, wanna go into why you picked your movies? I'm curious as to what you had to say about the ones I've seen.

I've seen a lot of movies. If I sat and really, really thought, I could come up with more. Let's see... here's me yammering about the ones I picked.

Fight Club (book, 1996; film, 1999) - I think this film says a lot about the crisis of modern masculinity. Culture has tried to breed a kinder, gentler breed of man. In the past, a lot of "traditionally masculine" traits served the survival of mankind pretty well. Now that we aren't in a day to day fight to the death, a lot of that stuff has become a vestige of the past. It's really difficult to find "appropriate" ways to express some aspects of masculinity. There are not clear "rites of passage" anymore, not the way there were in the past. Anyway...all of this is tied in to and related to this contempt for materialism. It's really a cool movie and book. It was probably one of the first films that really made me think about masculinity and its expression.

Fight Club was also just cool. I think it falls into the cult film genre. This and The Matrix are probably two of my all-time favorite movies.

Rocky (1976) - This was just a cool movie. Rocky was cool because he was such a simple, single-minded guy. He's not pretentious or over the top. He just "is". It seems like Rocky gets lumped in with the "manly man" movies, and rightly so. It's about boxing. The dude doesn't have a shred of femininity in him. Still, there was something more to it. I thought it was cool how he just "decided" that he wanted to date Adrian. He sets his mind to something, and goes for it. He's like my bulldog....quiet resolve. I think Rocky is a great movie. I can't help but get all excited when I watch it. Maybe other people don't think it is awesome, but I think it is WAY rad. It isn't like I want to be exactly the kind of man Rocky is, but I think there are admirable traits. Rocky is a much cooler and more complex character than people give him credit for. Stallone does a great job playing him too.

The Graduate (book, 1963; movie, 1967) - The Graduate isn't "like" Fight Club on the surface. It's more a "coming of age" movie...the way Dead Poets Society is. The dude has just graduated from college and people are like "what now?". There's the obvious choices of "go to graduate school", "get a job", and "get married". Dustin Hoffman's character is a kind of a rich, preppy dude...so I didn't identify strongly with the character at first. However, as the movie unfolded, I felt like a lot of that disenchantment with this "men's life formula" bore some similarity to Fight Club, it was just a different take on it. Back in the late 60's the angst had a different feel to it. I don't know. If you watch both movies you'll probably be able to see what I'm talking about. Anyway, I think there comes a point in a man's life where you can choose to walk the simple path, or you can decide what you want and go for it. You can say "I won't be able to live with myself unless I do this" and you pursue that goal single-mindedly. I don't want to go into the plot too much in case some of you young fellas want to go watch it.

Stand By Me (1986) - This kind of goes in the "coming of age" category. When I first saw it, I was a kid. I remember thinking it was so much better to be a little boy and I was envious of the adventure the kids were having. Because I didn't really get to be a little boy, I like watching movies like this. I'm sure it isn't an accurate depiction of what I missed out on. Looking back, I didn't really have a typical childhood as a girl or boy...something in between. I watched this not long ago and was nostalgic for childhood. It's a cool movie.

Gran Torino (2008) - I'd already suspected that there was some real loneliness associated with masculinity and that how you dealt with that loneliness said a lot about you as a person. Man...this movie made me feel really lonely, especially at first. There are lots and lots and lots of racial slurs. Yes, that was some rough language. Still, I was so wrapped up in the character that I saw the bad language as more of a way to show how people were back when Walt Kowalski was young than just gratuitous swearing and racial slurring. Walt was just pure awesome though, as only Clint Eastwood could have played him.

High Fidelity (book, 1995; movie, 2000) - I can't remember a lot of the details of this one because it's been a while since I watched it. I just remember this being kind of about being happy with what you have and not getting to wrapped up in what society says you are "supposed" to aspire to.

Gladiator (2000) - I saw this one as exemplifying a certain kind of man. Maximus is a strong, honorable, noble character. He takes his lumps and isn't a wuss about it. Also, I liked making jokes about Commodus because it sounds like commode. Sometimes I act like a child.

A less well done movie where the main character is a manly man would be 300. THIS IS SPARTA!! Leonidas is all stoic and fearless. In that movie he is more of a caricature of masculinity even, but I still liked it.

Cool Hand Luke (1967) - Luke is just a cool, cool character. He fights the establishment. People love him. He's full of life. I don't want to say much. It'd ruin the movie. I got one of my favorite lines from this movie. When my advisor (or another authority figure) asks me what I'm doing sometimes I'll say "shakin' the bush boss...shakin' the bush". It kind of means "I'm giving the appearance of doing what I'm supposed to, but I'm really doing what I want". I spend a lot of time shaking the bush.

Dead Poets Society (1989) - A coming of age movie. I'd lump this in with The Graduate and Fight Club in some ways. These guys are in high school and are getting groomed for competitive colleges and eventually high paying, high status careers. I saw this back in 6th grade and watched it over and over. It probably started me on the path to being one of those emo kids that was like "Don't be a conformist!!". My friend was all about the guys in it. I was all about learning what it was to be a man. I don't know. I thought this movie was cool because it was a coming of age movie that dealt with how you grow intellectually and less about being a butt kicker or being powerful. There is also this undercurrent of being pulled by our fathers'/family's expectations. Also, I want to be like Robin Williams' character when I teach. Challenge the status quo!! Ask questions!! Yup yup.

Another movie I saw recently that was pretty nifty was In The Electric Mist (2009) with Tommy Lee Jones. My roommate and I, who are a difficult audience, were glued to it. Tommy Lee Jones is in some cool movies. Man...he did a pretty darn good job playing Ty Cobb. That was a man I didn't want to mess with.

Oh...also... this was a rough movie, but there were some cool characters... No Country For Old Men.

With everything I watch with strong male characters, it's like I am learning about different masculine values and traits and then deciding which ones I think are important. It's like I'm building up a representation of what kind of man I'd want to be. It seems like a common theme is this single-minded pursuit of a goal, a willingness to pursue it beyond the point of reason. This isn't such a strong idea in coming of age movies, but it is true in a lot of the others...In The Electric Mist, Rocky, The Graduate, Gladiator...all of those. There's tons of others with that general theme too.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Hi Ains,

Cool Hand Luke is one of my favorite movies where it shows how men are really very insecure and are easily attracted to someone who is charismatic, but has nothing more ( and typically even less to actually offer). What sets cool hand apart is that he is willing to bet all the way and even suffer the consequences if he looses .(real man stuff here)

Dirty Harry movies (Clint Eastwood) are another series of romanticized "mans man" movies.

On the other hand, movies that show an entirely different side to men would be

Apocolypto,

Dances with wolves

The last Samurai

These movies, as well as others, show how men do live for ideals and the ones that they love. They will sacrifice everything for those that they cherish most.

LOL

bernii

[Guest hayden_jude]

I love Fight Club and The Graduate, and I love what Stranded said about them. So right, as well as Cody's interpretation of masculinity.

But I can't believe no one's mentioned Top Gun yet! Seriously? Every man of that age group, who would've been growing up and shaping their own ideas of masculinity in 1986, has said Maverick was one of their greatest guides, especially in dealing with their own various antagonists. I'm not sure I personally agree with them exactly, I just thought it was an obvious choice for a movie that influenced modern masculinity.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I love Fight Club and The Graduate, and I love what Stranded said about them. So right, as well as Cody's interpretation of masculinity.

But I can't believe no one's mentioned Top Gun yet! Seriously? Every man of that age group, who would've been growing up and shaping their own ideas of masculinity in 1986, has said Maverick was one of their greatest guides, especially in dealing with their own various antagonists. I'm not sure I personally agree with them exactly, I just thought it was an obvious choice for a movie that influenced modern masculinity.

For me Top Gun is a guilty pleasure. It came on TV the other day and I think I've watched it like 2.5 times. Way cool movie. The acting isn't the greatest, but you can't have everything. Lately my friend and I have been making fun of each other by humming the tune of "Take My Breath Away" at random times that are inappropriate.

I have to admit, the movie was a little influential maybe. In 4th and 5th grade we used to skateboard to Danger Zone almost every afternoon. We'd also play "Top Gun" and pretend our bikes were F-14's.

There were definitely some cool things about Maverick, like his confidence (until Goose bites it).

Heck, I get all worked up over movies with fighter planes, whether they are good or not.

While we are on the subject of military/war movies, I really liked Full Metal Jacket, Platoon, A Few Good Men, Men of Honor, An Officer and a Gentleman, Apocalypse Now, and Born of the 4th of July. I picked up The Thin Red Line at Wal-Mart for cheap a while back, but haven't watched it.

Know what other movies are cool? Martial arts!!!!! Asian masculinity is similar but different to Western masculinity. Gordon Liu movies are da bomb.

[Guest sphere]

Yeah, Fight Club definitely fits. Best film ever.

But one thing that comes to mind right now isn't actually a movie, but an anime (just because I'm a nerd like that) but it is a very "manly" type of thing you could say.

It's about fighting for what you believe in, believing in yourself, never giving up, etc etc, and being confident in yourself completely. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. I've watched it a million times, haha it's a bit silly but great, by far one of the best anime shows ever made.

And I've gotta say Lord of The Rings, being a huuuuge Tolkien fanboy. Lots and lots of very strong male lead characters. As I type this, I'm actually watching the movies again.

The latest X-Men movie was also pretty sweet (needed more Deadpool and Gambit though), definitely enjoyed the military backstory and Wolverine slicing and dicing a bunch of crap with his antamantium claws. I'm also a huge X-Men fan. xD

Indiana Jones, too. Raiders of The Lost Arc was just epic.

[Guest joe0117]

I'll have to give this some more thought to go through movies that I think would fit but there are two that come right to mind. The movie Philadelphia with Tom Hanks. He depicted everything about being a good man and masculine. He stood up for himself in a very appropriate manner. After being fired unjustly and the recipient of just hate from other people, he never apologized for who he was. He never lashed out and engaged with educated responses. He beat them with his intelligence and solid character. With everything going on with him, he was concerned about his family's feelings. He fought until he died and handled dying of AIDS with grace and dignity. He was self confident, caring, cool under pressure, educated, had good morals and family values. Those are all things that I think are important and show strong character for a man. The second movie I thought of was John Q with Denzel Washington. In that movie, his little boy is dying and denied treatment because they don't have insurance. He goes to extreme measures to secure that his little boy will live. When he feels he is out of options, he is ready to kill himself to save his child. His need to protect his loved ones, his unselfishness, his determination,and taking responsibility for his actions are also characteristics I associate with masculinity. Obviously, people may not agree with my choices but I am drawn to strong moral character as influences in what type of man I want to be. I'm going to have to watch some of these movies. Any other movies people would like to recommend?

Joe

[Guest Benzrathe]

WooT for "Romancing the Stone", & "The Last Samurai" listed previously, two that'd be on my list as well. But my fav all time are Tom Selleck cowboy flicks, with Quigley Down Under as tops! Those are the only ones that jump to mind atm.

What I find comforting, and most encouraging about this dialogue, is the reality that masculinity is truly in the eye of the beholder. Do you think biomales consider masculinity as much as we transmen do? Why do you think that is? I've said this before, but we as transpeople have the unique opportunity of creating any myriad of gender, along the spectrum of our choice. One thing we can be grateful for in not being born into our correct gender, is being raised free of the frequently socialized claptrap of gender constraints (i.e. if yer a boy = jock/girl =Susie homemaker). We weren't forced into any of the environmental subliminal molds (of our accurate genders) via Nature or Nurture coming up, and thus none of the negative misgivings. It also allowed us an exceptional vantage of scrutinizing our gendermates.

True we had to adhere to the propaganda of our birth genders, but that - at least in my case - can be compartmentalized and accessed as needed. We get to keep whatever best served us in that life, and incorporate what better serves us in this. We don't take our existences for granted. We step carefully and consciously ofttimes. I don't think we'd be so driven, if we weren't so utterly mismatched originally.

Masculinity for me is as previously described, with a healthy dose of honor thrown in. My good bud Frank was the kindest, most decent non-related guy I've ever known. He died of Cancer in 1997. At his funeral he left a letter for his kids "& loved ones", whose words still ring in my heart to this day. His best friend read the letter at Frank's funeral, as follows:

"As some of you may or may not know, Frank and I met as Police officers here in (omitted for the sake of privacy), and got closer when we were assigned as partners. Back in those days, there was a lot of corruption within the department, and on a long midnight shift I asked him 'How do you stay out of that mess', and he said 'It's easy - I live my life as if my kids are watching me'. He then told me to remind you guys, and I quote 'to live your lives as if I am watching, because I promise you all - I will be...'"

That's the kind of man I want to be. One who has his priorities dead on; who puts the needs of others ahead of my own; who faces the inevitable with dignity and courage; and isn't afraid to show the ones I love that I deeply do. A man who can still be dad regardless.

Peace,

Benz

[CharlotteW]

All this talk of masculinity in film and there is nothing NOTHING mentioned of Die Hard (1988), or other action movies.

Listen, having lived as a man, if you don't want to get eaten alive, you must either have swagger, or look like you'd drop someone for looking at you wrong. Being educated, being wise, being nice, etc, but in the eyes of society, especially men, the only real mark of a man is the ability to intimidate and when that fails, brutalize. There are cases of men beaten to death by their female partners, because it is unacceptable in any way shape or form for a man to be weak, certainly in the face of a WOMAN, God forbid. If you want to be accepted as men, learn to enjoy violence, to watch it, to live it, to let it permeate your whole being. Me? I run in guy circles and am completely accepted because when I stop smiling, I look like I wanna kill someone, I just haven't decided who yet. This is not a domination thing; it's a respect thing. Even my landlord, who kicked our coffee table in half in January and has a good six inches on me says he won't deliberately mess with me cause while he would kill me in a fight (literally), he's afraid of what I might do in the process. And this allows a breathing room that allows honest communication, and only then can your better qualities shine through. A man who has contempt for another man will never listen to him.

So embrace the violence, learn the violence, love the violence and you will do fine in the world of men.

[Guest]

So embrace the violence, learn the violence, love the violence and you will do fine in the world of men.

There's a problem with absolutes and stereotypes. They are not true for everyone in any group. I know plenty of men who aren't violent. One has to remember that violence left plenty of victims in it's wake. It's also a great way to end up in jail. Certainly violence is nothing to aspire to for any group. There are plenty of men to look up to who are world leaders who are not violent. The president of the US comes to mind.

Laura

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

There's a problem with absolutes. They are not true for everyone in any group. I know plenty of men who aren't violent. One has to remember that violence left plenty of victims in it's wake. It's also a great way to end up in jail. Certainly violence is nothing to aspire to for any group. There are plenty of men to look up to who are world leaders who are not violent. The president of the US comes to mind.

Laura

I'm definitely not violent. I don't mind watching it in movies, but in real life I'm not at all violent...nor do I aspire to be. You can be peaceful and still convey strength. That's what I aspire to.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

All this talk of masculinity in film and there is nothing NOTHING mentioned of Die Hard (1988), or other action movies.

Listen, having lived as a man, if you don't want to get eaten alive, you must either have swagger, or look like you'd drop someone for looking at you wrong. Being educated, being wise, being nice, etc, but in the eyes of society, especially men, the only real mark of a man is the ability to intimidate and when that fails, brutalize. There are cases of men beaten to death by their female partners, because it is unacceptable in any way shape or form for a man to be weak, certainly in the face of a WOMAN, God forbid. If you want to be accepted as men, learn to enjoy violence, to watch it, to live it, to let it permeate your whole being. Me? I run in guy circles and am completely accepted because when I stop smiling, I look like I wanna kill someone, I just haven't decided who yet. This is not a domination thing; it's a respect thing. Even my landlord, who kicked our coffee table in half in January and has a good six inches on me says he won't deliberately mess with me cause while he would kill me in a fight (literally), he's afraid of what I might do in the process. And this allows a breathing room that allows honest communication, and only then can your better qualities shine through. A man who has contempt for another man will never listen to him.

So embrace the violence, learn the violence, love the violence and you will do fine in the world of men.

I think there are a couple of films mentioned here that fall squarely in the action genre. It's just not the focus of the thread. Movies like Die Hard are fine, but there aren't complex, rich characters. It's not really saying anything about masculinity other than offering a caricature of it. There's plenty of that everywhere.

Ummm...yeah... I would tend to agree that physical presence is a part of masculine nonverbal communication. There are definitely some subtleties that I haven't quite worked out yet. Respect is definitely important. I think there are ways to earn that besides physical intimidation. Even at 5'6", I don't think I've had much trouble conveying that I am going to stand my ground. It's attitude. Most people have a lot to lose if they lay a hand on you. Modern culture doesn't leave a lot of room for real, physical butt kicking.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I definitely disagree with you about the importance of making people "afraid of what I might do". I think it is more important to convey what I will NOT do, which is accept and tolerate disrespect. In our modern, non-caveman culture, the winner is often the one who walks away. Yes, that guy might want to kick the junk out of me. Sure, he might be capable of doing so. However, I'll just be at home in my nice house, sensible car, and secure job while he sits with his anger. I don't need to lay a hand on anyone, but I won't take their crud either.

I'll understand the violence and its role, but I won't love or embrace it. I'm already doing fine in the world of men.

[Guest]

I like the hero movies like Diehard where the main character is fighting the evil doers. The character though is only reponding to other violence which if allowed to go unchecked would leave many victims in their wake. I don't like violence just for the sake of it though. I typically stay away from gang drug war movies. Heroes though I love.

Laura

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I like the hero movies like Diehard where the main character is fighting the evil doers. The character though is only reponding to other violence which if allowed to go unchecked would leave many victims in their wake. I don't like violence just for the sake of it though. I typically stay away from gang drug war movies. Heroes though I love.

Laura

So true!

You know what movie I left out? To Kill A Mockingbird. Atticus Finch is a great character, and Boo Radley's use of violence was definitely justified!

[CharlotteW]

I like the hero movies like Diehard where the main character is fighting the evil doers. The character though is only reponding to other violence which if allowed to go unchecked would leave many victims in their wake. I don't like violence just for the sake of it though. I typically stay away from gang drug war movies. Heroes though I love.

Laura

Actually that was the point I was trying to make. Being belligerent SOB will not get you any respect in any circle of guys I know of. I was trying to say, being a proper man is the willingness to BECOME violent if provoked and only if there is no other reasonable alternative. Walking away is usually the best and most mature thing to do, but if the other guy won't let you, you have to roll up your sleeves and take him to school.

[Guest Evan_J]

ooo good topic

Where to begin....

Pol, your list looks a lot like mine would. Good taste

Bogie and even Brando (he actully gets forgiven for a lot of films by me for Streetcar Named Desire lol)

and a nice transition to Oceans Eleven (and company).

I just wanna say ....Toretto!!!

Though I haven't seen the new one. (I dunno why I keep holding off) ....I'm drawn to the car movies and I resist it. No matter how it ranks on the "cerebral" scale, I liked Gone in 60 Seconds. ...something about down and out, past it, hack-job-of-a-life dudes....maybe it makes me think about my father..... and then start wishing he had become a different kind of man.