The Uk Keeps Haters Out

[Carolyn Marie]

Please check out this link to a story in today's CNN.com. http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/05/06...list/index.html

While I have some misgivings about "freedom of speech" issues, I have no sympathy for the hate mongers targeted by the British Home Office. All I can say is, good for the UK, and good for Home Secretary Jacqui Smith.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest nova]

Good one, Carolyn Marie

Michael Savage...wasn't he the one that was too extreme for Fox news? A botany (or something like that) major from Berkeley CA, who bored Californians to death for years with his radio talk show ranting about rich women who grocery shop in spandex; Guatamalan "leaf blowers", and autistic "brats" who need a good spanking. One of the original "compassionate conservatives".

[CharlotteW]

Ah, Dr. Weiner, batcrap crazy and proud of it.

He said that trans people were 'delusional psychopaths who need to be in the back of the psych ward doped up on medication.' But he acts as a safety valve and a canary in the coal mine. He only says what a lot of people beleive and I think it unwise to drive them underground only to be unpleasantly surprised when they come roaring to the surface.

[Guest julia_d]

Personally I'm glad this country has started to be honest about keeping these religious nutjobs out.. There are enough home grown ones who should be thrown out into the kinds of societies they want to create.

I would have allowed him to come, but with the condition that no hate motivated crime was possible to commit against him.. and then watch some crazed gay (doped up off the back of the psycho ward) murder him.

I think the USA would do well to follow some of the UK anti-hate laws.. because they see nutjobs like this silenced, imprisoned and in some cases deported or made to find sanctuary elsewhere. These dinosaurs are not welcome in a modern liberal (small "l" because it is probably the least free country in Europe) state..

We have the right to refuse entry.. and I'm glad to see it at last being used to keep these cup cakes and haters of freedom out... personally I would have let him in.. then as soon as he opened his mouth thrown him in jail and let him rot for about 10 years waiting to come to trial.. in an orange jumpsuit.

[Guest Sergei]

Good for Jacqui Smith. I've always praised England for protecting us, and I still believe that this is the best country in the world to go through gender transition.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Scarey people! We know about many of these hateful people, but like cockroaches, when you see one, there are a hundred more still hidding in the walls.

How can anyone profess to believe in GOD and then go about the devil's business? Christian? Islamic? I don't think so - agents of evil... demons.

I really don't believe in the classic HELL - but these people make me wish there was one, one they could go to. The only thing we can do is pray they see the error of their ways. That may seem weak, but if you think on it, it is one of the most powerful prayers there are.

Maybe Home Secretary Jacqui Smith has the right idea - just keep them away if you can. Or lock them in a room together, throw in a couple of knives, wait about an hour... then shoot the survivor.

Lizzy

[Guest leo]

haha lizzy

yay go UK its not to bad other here!

[Guest CharlieRose]

I think the USA would do well to follow some of the UK anti-hate laws.. because they see nutjobs like this silenced, imprisoned and in some cases deported or made to find sanctuary elsewhere. These dinosaurs are not welcome in a modern liberal (small "l" because it is probably the least free country in Europe) state..

I dunno, that might kind of go against American philosophy in general. Our first part of the Bill of Rights is free speech. And the first rule about free speech is that even if you don't like it, it doesn't mean you have a right to shut them up. What is it... there's a quote by Voltaire, something like "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Or maybe it's only falsely attributed to Voltaire. But whatever. It's a good quote.

We're a nation of all kinds of people, even hateful ones. (Heck, 140 years ago it was half our country, lol!) (You know, the confederacy.) Plus, we get accused of being on a moral high horse enough already, this would do nothing good for us. Can you imagine the field day some countries we're currently in high tension with would have if we "banned" some of their citizens?

[Guest CharliTo]

*starts looking up immigration informations into the UK*

<3

[CharlotteW]

I increasingly understand why people in this thread feel the way they do. Nonetheless, I am appalled. As a long time listener to the Savage Nation, I can tell you firsthand Savage is not nice. By since when is nice a necessity? Though I don't agree with all of what he spews, Savage reminds us we live in a cruel, pitiless, violent world and there is no possibility of escaping that. Plus he readily pokes holes in the bubbles that pass for liberal thought these days. Savage is the third most popular radio host in America; do you really think banning him is going to make the world a better place? The Germans banned the cup cakes for a while in the 20s, membership exploded. If you think Savage is a problem, it is best to understand he is a symptom, not a cause.

What makes Savage so angry is not only particular policy. It is the liberal/progressive mindset that there are some thoughts which are appropriate and some which are not and THEY have the right to pick which ones. This creed, if it helps us as transfolk in the short term, is massively destructive to the concept of liberty. You cannot force civility, you cannot enforce niceness, you can silence those who you find unpleasant, but you will never quiet their minds and they will win sympathy with those that fear your bullying, which is what you are actually doing. It's not that they wants this, they depend on it for their long term designs, everyone from White Supremacists to libertarians to Communists. Decorum and decency have NO PLACE in the public forum. Only the absolute, fearless pursuit of truth regardless of who it hurts or seems to hurt.

If we, as the trans community, had the power and decided to ban anyone from calling us 'mentally ill, demon possessed social degenerates,' or the like, what would happen? We should expect that our opponents will be driven underground, but the masses will wonder why we fear this position so much we will punish those who express it? We could make our case then and it is a good case, but it will be taken as one-sided propaganda. And they would be right to feel so. I was never an anti-Semite, but any inclination I had in that direction was cured by lurking at Stormfront and watching the posters there showing their utter ignorance and wrongness (not moral, but factual!) Morris Dees would have that site shut down; I say it's the most potent inoculation against White Supremacy there is. Likewise, we would do best by allowing the transphobic bigots to spew, and make fools of themselves, and disgust those whom they might otherwise be able to court. It's just human nature to sympathize with any persecuted group, even neo-cup cakes because no one likes a bully. If we truly have a solid argument, and we do, we can take them in a fair fight and win. And we should, because evil and stupidity scurry from the light like cockroaches.

If you despise Dr, Weiner's arguments so much, the worst thing you can do is muzzle him or mock him. If you mop the floor with his ilk, you will seal the hydra's head, and in Weiner's case particularly, after he's done spitting and cursing, if he doesn't change his opinion totally, he will respect you more. I've seen it happen over the years.

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora,

Freedom of speech is all well and good ....But....

"A bigot's mind is like the pupil of the eye-the more light one shines upon it-the more it will contract!"

People like Savage are 'mentally challenged' they are not going to change,whilst their ego is being fed-that is America 'allowing' him to broadcast his 'hate speech' over the airways...

Britain is finally coming to it's senses-when will America do the same???

Metta Jendar

[CharlotteW]

Kia Ora,

Freedom of speech is all well and good ....But....

"A bigot's mind is like the pupil of the eye-the more light one shines upon it-the more it will contract!"

People like Savage are 'mentally challenged' they are not going to change,whilst their ego is being fed-that is America 'allowing' him to broadcast his 'hate speech' over the airways...

Britain is finally coming to it's senses-when will America do the same???

Metta Jendar

Holmes may be correct with his definition of a bigot, but that would not be Savage. Savage is mean and has a low tolerance for BS, but he has changed his mind, or modified his views several times in my experince.

Furthermore, you best marginallize a fool and a maniac by letting him run his mouth. If the Czar had let Lenin and his run their mouths freely, I seriously doubt there would have ever been a Red Revolution, in spite all the bone-headed mistakes of Kerensky's provisional government. Speaking of which, if you supress even a vile hate monger, not only does their anger and extremism increase, but sympathy with the masses as well, meaning if you do fall from power, your enemies can move against you with even greater public support. This is why Hitler had to incremintally increase his persecution of his enemies, because Germany was a free society before and he needed time to goad people into genocide. Lenin on the other hand hung aritstocracts, police officers and kulaks from every lamppost in every city across the Motherland, to the wild jubulation of the crowd.

Yo CANNOT air out a room by forcing the stink into the corner. Likewise you cannot eliminate hatred by supressing it. I have my own hatreds; maybe my mind would contract like a pupil with good information, but I'll tell you this, telling me not to discuss it and dismissing me out of hand A. only convinces me I'm right even more cause in my experince, terminating the conversation means you have lost and won't admit defeat, and B. It makes me madder than Hell. You can't do any worse than debate me, assuming you're actually right. Otherwise I will destroy you. And that's the way it should be if we are to be free.

[Sally]

Kia Ora,

Freedom of speech is all well and good ....But....

"A bigot's mind is like the pupil of the eye-the more light one shines upon it-the more it will contract!"

People like Savage are 'mentally challenged' they are not going to change,whilst their ego is being fed-that is America 'allowing' him to broadcast his 'hate speech' over the airways...

Britain is finally coming to it's senses-when will America do the same???

Metta Jendar

Jendar, you always want people to think and I admire that in your threads so I would like to make you think about this carefully before you answer - let's say the 'bigot ' in question is not spewing hatred against the transgendered community but agianst the entire practice of Buddahism?

Would you still want him banned, would you applaud if the USA took him off of the air?

Would you feel that Britain has finally come to it's senses?

No, the problem with banning the freedome of speech for anyone is that it leads to the banning for everyone.

Freedom of speech is protected until it is used to insight riote or treason other wise you are free to your opinion wheither I agree or not.

I do not like this jerk but in the words of a great Americam - I do not agree with a word that you say, but I will defend to my death your right to say them.

We awant to be heard and unfortunatlly so does he - he got fans and asponsers - go get some and go on the air with the 'Gentle Midnfulness Hour' and I will listen - I do not listen to Savage - that's how freedom of speech works.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora,

In one sense you both are right…From a Buddhist perspective I’m not offended by what others say about me or for that matter Buddhism, after all as far as I’m concerned you have every right to say what you like, I may not agree with what you say but you have every right to say it…But this does not mean that I condone ‘hate speech’ –that can incite hatred that could lead to unrest and violence…And I guess that’s just how Britain feels when it comes to ‘banning’ certain people from entering the country on the bases of what they openly represent…

I guess I will never fully understand the American psyche when it comes to 'freedom of speech'...Remember that Christian counsellor Jacob remind me, why was he 'banned' was it something he said or represented???

Metta Jendar

[Sally]

This site is not an example of a 'public' airway - it is not a government agency, it is privately owned and operated so the owner has certain responsibilities and indeed legal responsibilities over everything that gets posted here and the United States is such a litigious country - we sue Mc Donald's because we are over weight or because our coffee is too hot - if we think you have money and we have a problem you will be sued! And defending anyone's freedom of speech is not a defense in 'civil court'.

The 'American Psyche' is unfathomable to those outside who really believe that we have anything like personal freedom - we don't, a little more than in Singapore, but then our streets aren't that clean or safe. We cling to our freedom of speech and view it as our right to complain and the right to bare arms is the other one - we have given up all others, even the right to vote has been prooven to be a waste of time our last President lost two elections and served both terms - what a joke and we are now buried over our heads in the debts and wars that his administration started and had no clue how to stop - A really high price to pay so that a few executive buddies of the Vice-President to get rich and some even pardoned.

We are a country on the verge of collapse, we have already lasted longer than any other Democracy in History but we are not doing so well now because we have always counted on war boosting the economy and this depression is going on during a war - they've run out of ideas - how do we fix the real problem - uncontrolled capitalism can not work - someone will have to own it all and will not care who he has to crush to get it.

No total freedom is Anarchy and no freedom is totalitarianism and we are somewhere in between with our elected (sometimes) royalty and their total lack of understanding what the working poor really need.

I'll get off of my soapbox, because no one with any power will ever listen to me - I can't get them any money, political friends or power so I don't exist.

Love ya,

Sally