Different Kinds Of Trans?

[Guest Jeannine Bean]

I strongly believe that there are some entirely different things that are all lumped into "trans." Some people, I think, psychologically identify more with roles of their nonassigned gender, for reasons which developed in the person's own emotional structure. Some people, I believe, have an organic development in the brain from within the womb which goes opposite their body's sexual development. And some people, I think, probably fall into completely other categories. Probably some people are autogynophyllic, and probably some people end up disowning and wishing to jettison everything in their assigned-from-birth gender for highly personal or cultural reasons. In Thailand, some boys are just raised as girls and expected to be daughters because that's what their family wants.

Does anyone else get a sense that our community is pretty heterogenous?

--Jeannine

[Guest leo]

i do agree that a lot of different types of people are lumped under trans. a lot more then other groups anyway

[Guest Leigh]

I strongly believe that there are some entirely different things that are all lumped into "trans." Some people, I think, psychologically identify more with roles of their nonassigned gender, for reasons which developed in the person's own emotional structure. Some people, I believe, have an organic development in the brain from within the womb which goes opposite their body's sexual development. And some people, I think, probably fall into completely other categories. Probably some people are autogynophyllic, and probably some people end up disowning and wishing to jettison everything in their assigned-from-birth gender for highly personal or cultural reasons. In Thailand, some boys are just raised as girls and expected to be daughters because that's what their family wants.

Does anyone else get a sense that our community is pretty heterogenous?

--Jeannine

i have to agree with you... but that doesn't meant that i think raising a son as a daughter is necessarily a good thing..

nor is the way kids are raised in the US...etc..

i don't think we would have as many "gender problems" (i.e. gender confusion...i hope i'm not being offensive) if we weren't raised with such strong ideas about gender. so maybe Thailand has one up on us. i think that gender roles are a social construct. physical gender is biological. desiring the physical characteristics of a different gender is psychological/chemical. (who's to say all the different causes..)

but i do think that there should be more room for differentiation in gender/gender roles. after all, if we weren't taught gender roles, we would all express ourselves that much more.

i hope i'm not confusing. great topic.

peace&love

leigh

[Guest Eth]

i have to agree with you... but that doesn't meant that i think raising a son as a daughter is necessarily a good thing..

nor is the way kids are raised in the US...etc..

i don't think we would have as many "gender problems" (i.e. gender confusion...i hope i'm not being offensive) if we weren't raised with such strong ideas about gender. so maybe Thailand has one up on us. i think that gender roles are a social construct. physical gender is biological. desiring the physical characteristics of a different gender is psychological/chemical. (who's to say all the different causes..)

but i do think that there should be more room for differentiation in gender/gender roles. after all, if we weren't taught gender roles, we would all express ourselves that much more.

i hope i'm not confusing. great topic.

peace&love

leigh

Not confusing at all- I was thinking the exact same thing when I read this.

[Guest Jeannine Bean]

i have to agree with you... but that doesn't meant that i think raising a son as a daughter is necessarily a good thing..

nor is the way kids are raised in the US...etc..

i don't think we would have as many "gender problems" (i.e. gender confusion...i hope i'm not being offensive) if we weren't raised with such strong ideas about gender. so maybe Thailand has one up on us. i think that gender roles are a social construct. physical gender is biological. desiring the physical characteristics of a different gender is psychological/chemical. (who's to say all the different causes..)

but i do think that there should be more room for differentiation in gender/gender roles. after all, if we weren't taught gender roles, we would all express ourselves that much more.

i hope i'm not confusing. great topic.

peace&love

leigh

Ditto. Gender roles seem to be a trap even for trans people who want to switch genders... unless you spend your life just oh so in love with another social construction.

For me, I think there's an organic brain structure that tells me I should be physically female. That's essentially what I've felt since I was very very young child and I've read the dutch studies that seem to support that being the case with many transsexuals. I prefer a female social role, but I strongly suspect that's only because I have come to associate that with "womanhood" in a physical sense, and so the social role issues are psychosocial secondary feelings for me.

For other people, social roles seem to be more the crux of the situation. Me, I'd be happy being "sir'd" the rest of my life if there was some miracle Genital Reconstruction surgery whereby I could function completely and have a child and everything (of course, when I'm preggo, no one is going to "Sir" me probably). I also respect that there are people who say things and express feelings that I cannot even relate to... We're all pretty different.

"If we weren't taught gender roles" -- what if our parents did not express those subtle disapprovals that a child senses as a real threat to its security and food supply everytime the child did whatever it wanted to do? What if people were broad minded enough to accept a child who one day wants to play with dolls and the next day wants to play with trucks and that was completely unremarkable to parents, or what if the parents hardly cared what the child chose to wear or how the child chose to play just so long as it wasn't physically dangerous to them? Maybe that's what you meant... but I still think gender roles could exist, but it would be nice for people to be able to choose them, or parts of them, or variations of them at will...

Choices are always good, in my worldview.

--Jeannine

[Guest CharlieRose]

I dunno, I don't really think of gender as a social construct. Sure, some aspects of it are socially constructed, but I'm pretty sure it's been proven that gender is a trait that is inborn and unchangeable. If it was all made up then it wouldn't matter if we were raised as boys and girls, or were boys or girls internally or physically. Obviously those things DO matter, otherwise we wouldn't exist. Even cultures that are accepting of gender cross-overs still have men and women.

That being said, there are definitely different kinds of trans.

[Guest Jeannine Bean]

I dunno, I don't really think of gender as a social construct. Sure, some aspects of it are socially constructed, but I'm pretty sure it's been proven that gender is a trait that is inborn and unchangeable. If it was all made up then it wouldn't matter if we were raised as boys and girls, or were boys or girls internally or physically. Obviously those things DO matter, otherwise we wouldn't exist. Even cultures that are accepting of gender cross-overs still have men and women.

We'll always have men and women. and people in-between.. but what behaviors are considered "okay" or "masculine" or "feminine" are amazingly diverse... and I feel it would take a lot of pressure off every human if those frames became huge, wide, immense... vast... as opposed to narrow.

--Jeannine

[Guest Christy.dancer]

I strongly believe that there are some entirely different things that are all lumped into "trans." Some people, I think, psychologically identify more with roles of their nonassigned gender, for reasons which developed in the person's own emotional structure. Some people, I believe, have an organic development in the brain from within the womb which goes opposite their body's sexual development. And some people, I think, probably fall into completely other categories. Probably some people are autogynophyllic, and probably some people end up disowning and wishing to jettison everything in their assigned-from-birth gender for highly personal or cultural reasons. In Thailand, some boys are just raised as girls and expected to be daughters because that's what their family wants.

Does anyone else get a sense that our community is pretty heterogenous?

--Jeannine

Yeah, I can buy into that... my own story -- I was already living as a more-or-less effeminate boy before I every came to grips with my gender disorder (thanks, by the way, to a ton of therapy for other issues.) Now, I get to wear a much nicer wardrobe, and get poked in the donkey by an endocrinologist once a month.

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora JB,

Fafafine is the term used in Samoa which means 'like a woman/female' -If a Samoan family has too many sons they often bring the youngest up as female to do all the female chores about the home that a daughter would normally do...Many Fafafine go on to become 'transgender' some even begin HRT and have surgery[especially the ones living here in Aotearoa]- Were they trans to begin with??? Who knows.... 'Nurture over nature perhaps ???

Metta Jendar

[Guest S. Chrissie]

Kudos for the threadstarter This is something that was on my mind for a loooong time.

For me, I think there's an organic brain structure that tells me I should be physically female. That's essentially what I've felt since I was very very young child and I've read the dutch studies that seem to support that being the case with many transsexuals. I prefer a female social role, but I strongly suspect that's only because I have come to associate that with "womanhood" in a physical sense, and so the social role issues are psychosocial secondary feelings for me.

Incidentally, I wonder if it's the opposite, that social construct and gender roles, in a way "forces" a person to want physical changes because to the society, you are not going to be known as your target gender without the right "plumbing". Then again, what you said made more sense too, in the past, I probed the chatters in the chatroom, asking them

"What is the point of transitioning? Is it to 'realign' the body with the mind? IF so, what if you can get surgery and 'realign' your body, yet, you still have to live the life of your prior life, getting 'sir'ed' or 'ma'am'? Will you be okay with that? "

Majority said it IS to 'realign' the body with the mind, yet social transition is very important for them. I just realised the way I word the question fit your description, I should have asked it the other way round.

Sherlyn

Sherlyn

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Confusion here - "trans?"

I prefer 'transsexual' as the word. It's not a perfect word as it infers a 'sex' transference... and gender is a gentler word.

CONFUSING : as a transsexual I don't want to change my gender, because I am already female in soul and mind. But the 'sex' change is really a very small part, and I really want people to see my BODY as gender female. The 'panty' check isn't a usual requirement. Not in polite society. But when intimate - sure - I want my sex to be female.

So that's me. "Transsexual."

HUMMMMM

I feel pretty much the standard definition of transsexual, but I know of other people who were not EXACTLY like me, and consider themselves transsexual.

Example - my post-op friend Veronica. She says she never knew she wanted to be a woman, although she always felt out of place. How can she NOT have the feeling of being a girl in a male body when younger? She said she never experienced that. So I guess maybe - 'late onset transsexuality?" Weird.

I also have an androgynous friend, a wonderful woman, and I never have known her in her male personna. She says she is a crossdresser with a slight bend toward transsexuality. She is too happy with her male attributes to ever transition. We talk about the difference of her wanting to show her feminine side when crossdressing, while I am looking to affirm my femaleness. Yet she is so female I can't tell the difference sometimes between her and me! So 'partial transsexuality?" Donno

And are MTF and FTM the same type of transsexualism, I mean besides the opposite direction?

I know FTM are sometimes in love with the idea of empowerment as a male, and seem focused upon the physical parts of the male body, especially a penis and all that means. I on the other hand am going the other way - and want to lose all the responsibility being male requires, and I can't deliver very convincingly. I focus on a vagina and all that means but I look at having one as the final 'frosting' on the cake - a cliche if there ever was one, but true - what I need to be complete. I just want to be accepted as a woman so I can let out what I already feel. All the MTF seem to all share that.

The FTM seem desparate to be male in body - and may not realize they can THEN explore the male temperment.

Am I crazy on this - totally off? We MTF are looking to be ourselves, more than to be in a woman's body. FTM seem more ready for the body, and hope the rest follows.

So MTF transsexualism - and FTM transsexualism - more different than first thought?

Finally - incorrect visions of transsexualism - drag queen, female impersonator, effiminate gay man, butch lesbian female, children raised in the opposite gender because of circumstances beyond their control (maybe not that common in the Western world)?

And where do the intersexed and the androgynous fit in? They are and are not transsexual sometimes.

Yes I agree - 'transpeople" are a diverse group. This is outside of other Gender Dysphoric labels. COMPLICATED

Just some thoughts

Lizzy

[Guest Charlene_Leona]

I think it comes down to this if you are intent on correcting your body to become the gender that your mind is your transsexual.

If you are any of the other variations with no intent to surgically repair yourself, your are transgendered. There defiantly is a wide range of individual Trans-people but it a fairly simple delineation and I see no disservice to transgender individuals for considering the difference to the two. But IMHO think this is what Harry Benjamin meant with his definition.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Well Jeannine,

You pose a very interesting question. Laura in her wisdom set up this site to include ALL types of gender dysphoria. Heterogenous? Yes! This community clearly represents everyone from those who are just awakening to those who have fully transitioned. This site actually accepts many more people than the range I just described. Transsexual, MTF, FTM, Crossdresser, Androgynous, Homosexual, Transgenderist are in actuality very loose terms to describe someone. Again, we try to not assign labels to anyone, because labeling is an attempt to box people in. Everyone here, I am sure, have gone through many stages of self-identity and consequently, a "label" that applied yesterday, no longer applies today. The reason why we all have found Laura's and participate in this site is that we all identify with some degree of gender-giftedness. Regardless as to how strong or as to how urgent the need is, we all need to express our sense of gender, and at Laura's we can safely do that! Different cultures can have different views of gender. Depending upon the culture, it can have a more positive effect or more negative effect on one's ability to freely express one's true gender. It seems that the East is more fluid in gender identity than the West. Well, OK. I think that those "daughters" raised in the east, but are biologicaly male and may identify as male, have as much difficulty as those raised in the West as their biological gender, when they identify as the "other" gender.

bernii

[Guest Jeannine Bean]

I know FTM are sometimes in love with the idea of empowerment as a male, and seem focused upon the physical parts of the male body, especially a penis and all that means. I on the other hand am going the other way - and want to lose all the responsibility being male requires, and I can't deliver very convincingly. I focus on a vagina and all that means but I look at having one as the final 'frosting' on the cake - a cliche if there ever was one, but true - what I need to be complete. I just want to be accepted as a woman so I can let out what I already feel. All the MTF seem to all share that.

The FTM seem desparate to be male in body - and may not realize they can THEN explore the male temperment.

Am I crazy on this - totally off? We MTF are looking to be ourselves, more than to be in a woman's body. FTM seem more ready for the body, and hope the rest follows.

Whoa!

You just nailed down something I haven't ever articulated. I actually liked hanging around the FtM folks at the Southern Comfort conference the two years I went and I felt a deeper kinship and ease with their attitudes than the MtFs I met. When I've spoken with FtM friends, saaaay, on a long car ride, we both share that intense specific importance on the physical genitals. I've shared conversations about having to keep that from therapists because they wanted us to be so focused on other parts of "transition".

I'll be honest for a second, and say I only recently started wearing skirts, and it had almost no psychological sway or impact for me. I like having my gender acknowledged by others, mostly I think because I feel like they interpret my actions better, and I don't feel so misunderstood... like the "me" I'm always acting out is now within the frame people see me through... Honestly, I'm almost fine with the gender role I always had (and everyone always thought I was conflagration gay, so I guess my role's been very culturally "feminine" for a long time -- but I seldom felt like I "couldn't" *DO* anything I wanted to do, except _every_ single thing I ever think about doing sexually, LOL). Almost all aspects of "transition" feel like frosting on the cake for me compared to vaginal restoration along with growing my personal sense of power as a woman.

I usually don't say all this because within most of the frames I hear people talk about, I fear my thinking on this is "wrong" in some way...

But this is maybe why I'm so acutely aware of heterogenaity in the group :-p . . . I notice other ladies not quite fitting the "standard" MtF stuff you talked about, and I think "she's cool, maybe she's different too." And I feel like I am lurking on the edges of a counterculture within our culture or something, LOL...

--Jeannine