misgendering - To correct or not to correct?

[Audrey]

That is the question!

 

I am inspired to post this topic after an experience I had yesterday. A public-facing city agency, which I will not name here, called me at my office to discuss something related to my work. The caller "sir"-ed me from the outset, presumably solely based on my voice because there was no way to know my name ahead of the call. I said, "it's "ma'am" and my name is Audrey __." Despite this, I was misgendered repeatedly in the call, and the caller continued to address me as "sir." I corrected the caller a second time. When it continued after this, I asked to speak with the caller's supervisor. At this, the caller demanded to know why. I said it was because it was disrespectful to continue misgendering me despite being told to stop.

 

There might have ben an earlier time, where I would have let something like this slide. But not anymore! I am a strong advocate for myself. Perhaps in a situation where I would never interact with the person again I might let it go. But this will be someone I will need to speak with again in the future, and also the person is also representing a public-facing agency of the city. I did speak with the caller's supervisor who appreciated my bringing up the issue.

 

Please do share your thoughts! Thank you so much.

 

Love,

~Audrey.

 

 

[KathyLauren]

In casual conversation, my first reaction is usually, "Did he really just misgender me?", and self-doubt makes me drop it.

 

In the phone, I get "sir-ed" a lot.  First offence, I'll let it go, because of my voice.  Usually, it's a one-of at the beginning of the conversation, no big deal.  If the person does it again, it is obvious that they are going to do it all through the conversation, so I will correct them.  If they keep doing it after being corrected, I'll hang up on them.  If it was someone I needed to talk to, I would do as you did and ask to speak to their supervisor.  There is no excuse for it after being corrected.

 

Another one I get is when the caller asks for me by name.  I will say "Speaking" or "That is me."  And there is this pause...  They might ask a second time, with the same result and the same pause...  And then the conversation resumes.  It is awkward, but I view it as a teaching moment. 

[Carolyn Marie]

I think your response was appropriate in this instance, Audrey.  While it is common to be misgendered on the phone (it happened many times to me at the beginning), it's rude and disrespectful to continue to do so after the caller has been corrected more than once.

 

IRL, there was one person in my office who misgendered me repeatedly over time; however, he was so apologetic and dismayed after each instance that I knew he just couldn't help it.  He'd known me for years and his brain was wired to think of me as he/him.  But if someone did it repeatedly and was clearly malicious in their intent, I would have reported them.  Context is very important in deciding how to handle it.

 

Carolyn Marie

[Audrey]

Thank you both for sharing your thoughts. I agree that context is everything. It is interesting, misgendering is quite rare in face-to-face interactions, mostly I feel because my gender expression is pretty obvious. However, once the visual and behavioral cues are not available, as it is on the phone, misgendering is quite common. It shows just how powerful a voice is in suggesting the gender of the speaker in the absence of other cues. I cannot tell you the number of times that people hear "Andre" when I am really saying "Audrey." I am not sure what to make of it because there are other times where people say I have a soothing voice. A friend of mine reminded me of women who have deeper voices like Lauren Bacall and Kathleen Turner. It really helps when I have to spend a lot of time on the phone and misgendering is a common occurrence.

Love,

~Audrey.

[Vidanjali]

12 hours ago, Audrey said:

A friend of mine reminded me of women who have deeper voices like Lauren Bacall and Kathleen Turner. 

...or Shohreh Aghdashloo. Her voice is gorgeous. 

 

I'm proud that you stood up for yourself. I agree you did the right thing by informing his supervisor. That he persisted after you twice corrected him is ridiculous. Moreover, why even use those titles in a case where one is not certain -  that is, it is possible to conduct a conversation without using sir OR ma'am. 

[Audrey]

23 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

Moreover, why even use those titles in a case where one is not certain -  that is, it is possible to conduct a conversation without using sir OR ma'am. 

Yes, this! The English language is tricky being so binary, and trying to be gender neutral is sometimes challenging. I strive to be mindful of it myself especially because I do identify on the binary. I feel like the caller thought it was polite to use a title like "ma'am" or "sir" constantly, even it was having the opposite effect. I have also noticed a tendency among some to use Ms. or Mr. this way too.

It is interesting though. I did not identify the (assumed) gender of the caller in my post!

Love,

~Audrey.

[Vidanjali]

18 hours ago, Audrey said:

It is interesting though. I did not identify the (assumed) gender of the caller in my post!

 

I am glad you mentioned this, @Audrey . Re-reading my post I did gender the caller in your story as "he"! Coincidentally, I just began reading a book about intrinsic racial bias. But the principles apply to any type of bias. Your comment gives me the opportunity to reflect on why I assumed the caller was a "he", and I appreciate that. I don't like when anyone misgenders me, but it hurts the most if my male partner does it; perhaps that contributed to my apparent bias. Or, perhaps because of the caller's insistence even after being corrected twice (a stereotype of males being more aggressive?) It is interesting to think about, and it raises my awareness so that I will hopefully be less prone to such bias in the future. In general, I am trying to learn to avoid gendered language unless there are specific reasons to use it (like if someone specifically IDs as a man or woman) because as a nonbinary identifying person, I am trying to "be the change I wish to see in the world" as Gandhi said.

 

In my work (higher ed math), we often discuss student cases among colleagues to gain a wider perspective on how to respond best to various situations. I don't gender a student when I discuss them so as to maintain better confidentiality and also to avoid invoking any bias in the colleague I am speaking to. But, just like I did with your caller, some colleagues will reply referring to the student as "he", others "she", and some will ask which pronouns before responding. 

 

As a nonbinary person, I get misgendered all the time because nonbinary is not on most people's radar. It is personally frustrating, but I don't see it as aggressive (unless I've specifically disclosed to someone) because nonbinary is as of yet not broadly known or understood. So when someone sees me or hears my voice, it's ma'am or miss. I tell my students to call me "professor", which mercifully in English is gender-neutral. 

[Audrey]

Hi @Vidanjali I am happy to read I inspired some thought and your reply reminded me of an exercise I did early in graduate school around recognizing bias. It was a self-reflection activity in which there was a list of different occupations and other titles, and the idea was to identify the first image of a person that comes to mind with each word. Gender and race were certainly major biases with some words, but there were others the exercise helped draw attention to as well like age, class, ability, and even body type. Bias lurks everywhere and I appreciate chances to become more mindful of my own as well.

Love,

~Audrey.

[Guest]

I’d like to add an odd experience to this thread. I work for the USPS and one of my deliveries is to an assisted living home. Despite my best effort, all the elderly ladies still call me sir. I am “ma’am’”almost all the time now except for there. I assume it’s just a generational thing where they just expect the mailman to be a man. Many of them are hard of hearing and short of sight. I just let it slide.

 

Otherwise I only correct if I have the time or I care about the person misgendering me. 

[Audrey]

@Erica Gabriel I work with older adults in my own career, some of whom have dementia. Before our programs reopened, I was pretty sure I would face a lot of misgendering and dead naming from the clients. But the opposite has been true in my experience, and most everyone has embraced my name and pronouns even if there are occasional slip-ups. From what you describe, it sounds like your gender expression is pretty clear so it is hard to know what is going on for sure. So I understand letting it slide especially if you have tried and they are not treating you negatively.

Now, the day that the bodega owner stops calling me "boss" will be monumental!

Love,

~Audrey.

[Sol]

Hey, it's in words!

I mostly get called ma'am, but I sometimes get called "girl." I don't know why some people call me this, but it happens. I went to the dentist for a cleaning and he said "girl," and I just had this lance of anxiety like "Do I tell him? What do I do? What's the procedure here?" but I got super anxious and acted like nothing was wrong. 

I got angry today, largely because I'm being swamped and I have no breaks, but my grandma called me "girl," and normally I'm not super anxious about family calling me that, but I may have cursed and said "Don't call me a girl," while angrily drizzling honey over ice cream (seriously, try it, it is awesome). 

I sometimes find terms like "girl," or "woman," or even "lady," to be almost demeaning. It's like I'm being reduced to something that is not the sum of my parts. "You're such a strong young lady," "You're a fine young woman," or "You're a beautiful girl," don't really have the same ring to them anymore, and they stand out when I hear them now. I've been getting an automatic urge to correct people sometimes, but I don't because I'm anxious and it dissolves my spine. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Audrey said:

@Erica Gabriel I work with older adults in my own career, some of whom have dementia. Before our programs reopened, I was pretty sure I would face a lot of misgendering and dead naming from the clients. But the opposite has been true in my experience, and most everyone has embraced my name and pronouns even if there are occasional slip-ups. From what you describe, it sounds like your gender expression is pretty clear so it is hard to know what is going on for sure. So I understand letting it slide especially if you have tried and they are not treating you negatively.

Now, the day that the bodega owner stops calling me "boss" will be monumental!

Love,

~Audrey.

Well, if your his boss then you can fire him, right?

 

I’m only in that facility once or twice a week.  The carrier who is there the other days is definitely a mail “man”. I think it’s just confusing for them. I had one 90+ year old ask me, as loud as she could “are you a boy or a girl?” I think the staff find it amusing.

[Audrey]

8 hours ago, Erica Gabriel said:

I had one 90+ year old ask me, as loud as she could “are you a boy or a girl?” I think the staff find it amusing.

A part of me wants to reply "yes" to a question like that. But then, another part of me sees it as a teaching moment if the asker seems open to it. I will say though, I have had some questions come up from a few clients that cross professional boundaries , usually about my medical and legal transition which is not their business. I cannot imagine anyone asking someone that but somehow my being trans gives a green light to their curiosity and need to know or understand. They accept my limits, and thankfully the community is warm and accepting of me!

 

Love,

~Audrey.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Audrey said:

A part of me wants to reply "yes" to a question like that. But then, another part of me sees it as a teaching moment if the asker seems open to it. I will say though, I have had some questions come up from a few clients that cross professional boundaries , usually about my medical and legal transition which is not their business. I cannot imagine anyone asking someone that but somehow my being trans gives a green light to their curiosity and need to know or understand. They accept my limits, and thankfully the community is warm and accepting of me!

 

Love,

~Audrey.

It really comes down to time for me. I keep my social interactions short because I’ve so much work and I just want to get my job over with and return to being a human. 
 

I decided to come out last week to an acquaintance that worked at my post office a few years ago. I see him occasionally since I deliver mail to the bank he manages. Over the past year he’s teased me about my increasingly long hair and uses my old name. It turns out that one of my supervisors is in a bowling league with him so I decided last week to I should come out to prevent any confusion. Well, he had wondered why my supervisor referred to me as “Mrs. Erica”. Coming out went well though it was in a bank lobby full of people who hadn’t anticipated witnessing a moment like that. It was for the greater good, right?

 

 

[Vidanjali]

10 hours ago, Erica Gabriel said:

“are you a boy or a girl?”

 

1 hour ago, Audrey said:

A part of me wants to reply "yes" to a question like that. 

 

😂 I definitely understand that urge. In my case, I'd be tempted to reply, "no". 

 

12 hours ago, Sol said:

drizzling honey over ice cream (seriously, try it, it is awesome)...

 

"You're such a strong young lady," "You're a fine young woman," or "You're a beautiful girl,"... I've been getting an automatic urge to correct people sometimes, but I don't because I'm anxious and it dissolves my spine. 

 

I have and it's delish! I like honey and cinnamon on vanilla ice cream. Yum! We also got this hot honey infused with hot peppers. If you like picante, that's delicious paired with ice cream too. 

 

It is peculiar how those well meaning "compliments" often include some affirmation of gender, as if that would necessarily enhance the compliment. I suppose for many people it does! But, it's not a given. I falter on how to respond as well. Here's an example of not my most mature moment. Say my husband slips and says, "you're a talented lady", I'll reply, "YOU'RE a talented lady!" (I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I style.) We've gotten to the point where it makes him laugh and helps to diffuse the tension without being so serious about it (we have serious talks at other times). But, that tactic is not appropriate for the general public, obviously. I've tried all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to not get upset about misgendering. Other examples, when a friend greets me, "hey girl!" I pretend they're saying it the way a gay man would to another gay man which I find joyful. So, I reply with an affected "hey girl!" even to guy friends. At other times I tell myself they are referring only to certain attributes of my physical appearance and not to the whole me. But that doesn't really help because it makes me feel disconnected. They don't call it dysphoria for nothing.

 

One more thought. I also find it rather odd and sometimes disturbing that women are referred to as girls almost indefinitely, whereas men stop getting callled boys at some distinct point (unless it's specifically meant to be playful, like going out with the boys - but in that case there's a whole can of worms related to low expectations of emotional maturity that are supposed to be acceptable for men...). The worst is the expression "young girl" which people use to refer to a woman in her late teens - early twenties. I do usually speak up when I hear this expression used, and say something like, "so we're talking about a 6 or 7 year old?"