AGP theory

[Iris C]

One of the biggest stumbling blocks to me starting hormones was the theory of autogyneophyleo by Ken Blanchard. If you don't know it states there are only 2 types of MTF. The one younger. Simply a correction of gender for a homosexual child. The other, more sinister, which happens later in life, is caused by a man falling in love with herself and then becoming that. It is a widely accepted theory 

 

This was extremely distressing for me before I chose to start treatment. My problem is both theories are based on sexual orientation. I had always thought this was a simple! Issue of gender orientation. If I was having a romance with myself that was disgusting. My wife, family and values would not be deserving of this perversion. 

 

I watched a few videos of people who started hormones and then stopped because of the loss of libido which then was a problem for their AGP. 

 

That gave me the courage to try treatment. I am so happy to say that is not the case with me. I simply hate the fact that so many other people might have found themselves put into a box. 

[Audrey]

@Iris C

I remember the Blanchard theory all too well. It was one of the very first things I encountered in my research to understand myself when I was in college some years ago. The notion that my feelings could be reduced to a paraphilia did a lot of psychological damage. It led to years of staying closeted and repressing my feelings. The theory has been widely criticized as heteronormative, sexualizing, pathologizing, over-simplistic, binary, and just generally flawed. Unfortunately, because I discovered it so early on and it had been put into journals and other academic works, the damage was done. But I did find my courage to accept myself and move forward, and I am so happy to hear that you also found the courage to do so as well! ❤️

 

Love,

~Audrey.

[Sally Stone]

When I first starting looking into this theory, a lot of it resonated with me, but then I began to realize that this was just another theory, not based in very much scientific fact.  I also realized this theory was postulated by men who didn't possess any of the innate feelings of someone who was MTF trans.  Those components of the theory that resonated with me, were easily explained in other ways and just as plausible.  Ultimately, I considered it a flawed theory like so many others.

 

Interestingly, I posted a comment about AGP theory on a different trans blog site, one I had been a regular contributor to for many years, and I was actually censured.  I wasn't supporting the theory and actually was pointing out some of its flaws, but because I had used the "A" word in my post they removed it and told me I was forbidden to ever mention the term again.  I'm really an avid supporter of free speech and healthy discourse, so that post was the last one I ever made at that other site and I haven't visited it since.   

[stveee]

I suggest Contrapoints examination of this topic on YouTube. 

[VickySGV]

Autogynephilia is by now highly discredited and for the most part debunked in the major works on Gender Diversity of the American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, the Diagnostic Statistics Manual, a World Health Organization treatise on Gender diversity and other publications of research in the Trans sciences.  While it is listed a few places as a Paraphilia, the care and treatment of Trans People in general is no longer considered as a mental illness and no longer listed as such, but rather as a natural condition that can benefit from medical assistance in the forms of acceptance counseling, Hormone Replacement Therapy and in some, but far from all cases with surgical body modification.  We are no longer a pathology which Blanchard portrayed and thus not "sicko's" which many people claim.  Brynn Tannehill in Everything You Wanted To Know About Being Trans* (2019) takes up about 5 very understandable pages on where Autogynephilia does not fit in to our lives today.  (Brynn is a personal acquaintance whose scientific research I trust.)

[Journey]

Hi, 

 

New here, but this is something that resonates with me a lot because for the last decade I have been in this spot of now moving forward thinking this is the cause of my issues. I even went to multiple therapists that specialize in gender but they are not really equipped for a conversation about that dark corner of the transgender world, the AGP world. 

 

I am not supporting the theory as factual but rather that to really unravel it all you sometimes have to discuss some hard topics which many will not do. Regardless, now I am on HRT and still struggle with wondering if this is the right move for me. The hormones themselves I love, they give me peace. But it's the changes occurring that is a love / hate relationship. I love them making me more feminine but I hate how I always have this piece of me that comes back to self-doubt and questioning AGP in general as a reason for my choices. I guess this isn't an uncommon thing but it is uncommon to really discuss it openly. 

[Iris C]

17 hours ago, Journey said:

Hi, 

 

New here, but this is something that resonates with me a lot because for the last decade I have been in this spot of now moving forward thinking this is the cause of my issues. I even went to multiple therapists that specialize in gender but they are not really equipped for a conversation about that dark corner of the transgender world, the AGP world. 

 

I am not supporting the theory as factual but rather that to really unravel it all you sometimes have to discuss some hard topics which many will not do. Regardless, now I am on HRT and still struggle with wondering if this is the right move for me. The hormones themselves I love, they give me peace. But it's the changes occurring that is a love / hate relationship. I love them making me more feminine but I hate how I always have this piece of me that comes back to self-doubt and questioning AGP in general as a reason for my choices. I guess this isn't an uncommon thing but it is uncommon to really discuss it openly. 

For me the acid test was whether I would want to come off hormones because of the loss of libido. I have not missed it at all so this invalidates the theory personally. 

[Ivy]

On 12/12/2021 at 5:52 PM, stveee said:

I suggest Contrapoints examination of this topic on YouTube.

Contrapoints is probably not for everybody.  But I think she did a good job on this.   It's been quite awhile since I saw it though.

Here is a link to it…

 

[Guest]

Iris and Journey,

 

I find it interesting that the idea of autogynephilia was given any platform at all. I too, have seen this in the past. I am curious as to how the theorist who dreamed this concept up explains how many of us have the deep and relentless belief that we should be female at about the age of 5 or so? There is no way that a five-year old has any concept of auto-anything. As for falling in love with one's self, should we "hate" ourselves or "love" ourselves? I am over all of the different pop psychology explanations. I know for a fact that as a child, my best self-image was to be female. Despite many ways of masking, it has been there. As for the idea that it is a gender correction for a homosexual child, I am not buying that either. Many of us knew we were the wrong gender at an age where the concept of homosexual or heterosexuality was not differentiated. I would not worry about the concept of autogynephilia. Should we go around hating ourselves because we are becoming truer to ourselves? 

 

I would not dwell on this concept. if you are having difficulty with the process, then you should consider talking with your counselor. It is likely normal to wonder if one is doing the right thing and that varies for all of us. Think about how things were  earlier in the year in comparison to now. As for the loss of libido, I have no wisdom. Everybody is different in that regard. 

 

Sincerely

Katie

[VickySGV]

1 hour ago, Katie23 said:

I would not dwell on this concept. if you are having difficulty with the process, then you should consider talking with your counselor.

 

As I said up here:

 

On 12/12/2021 at 3:25 PM, VickySGV said:

Autogynephilia is by now highly discredited and for the most part debunked in the major works on Gender Diversity of the American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, the Diagnostic Statistics Manual, a World Health Organization treatise on Gender diversity and other publications of research in the Trans sciences.

 

A qualified counselor will go into some detail as to why it does not apply to your lives and help you with important parts of your life. .

[Ivy]

I think the transphobic crowd latches on to anything to claim they are "following the science", like the oversimplification of XX and XY chromosomes thing.

[helena]

I'm having serious lack of trust on any research conducted on trans subjects. Most of the information I find seems to be tainted by political, religious or financial motives. Thanks to social media people tend to parade research confirming their own beliefs and also cancel those contradicting them. If there is neutral research it is probably stash away in the deepest and darkest corner of the internet and libraries because companies and the academic world are afraid of the social media mobs lynching them for providing research not supporting their cause.

 

As someone who believes to be a transsexual woman I'm very scared and angry, because I'm making a decision of my life which in some point yields irreversible physiological changes, and I can trust absolutely no one to guide me. 

[VickySGV]

18 minutes ago, helena said:

As someone who believes to be a transsexual woman I'm very scared and angry, because I'm making a decision of my life which in some point yields irreversible physiological changes, and I can trust absolutely no one to guide me. 

There are people and scientific groups you can trust, and we try to be sure that those are the ones we allow to be included in our posts here.  Those of us on the staff here have had many years of experience learning to trust the sources.  In addition, we are telling our own stories and what we have found that helped us and not harmed us.  Even the best science however can be a disagreement between the scientists who are honest and not looking for a single answer to sell a product.  Networking with actual Trans people as we try to keep the place here has helped all of us, even when in the end it fell on us to make our own choices.  If we talk about certain groups or resources here it is because we have found them useful in our Transitions and legitimately think they are good  I will have the 9th anniversary of my Gender Confirmation Surgery in two weeks and others on our staff have their own stories to tell or how they have fulfilled their dreams and needs.

 

[Guest]

Thank you @VickySGV. I spend a lot of time listening to trans related audiobooks (fiction and non-fiction) and thought it was common knowledge that AGP had been discredited much like Dr. John Money’s “Nature vs Nurture” theory and the damage it caused. I understand the confusion and doubt you can feel during transition. The initial clarity you have when you come to terms with your gender identity is soon replaced by the reality of how hard this journey is. It’s healthy to have doubt and healthier to be able to explore it through research and therapy. The countless transition stories I’ve read leave me no doubt that our shared journey is a still misunderstood part of the human experience and I share your frustration over the pseudoscience.

[Charlize]

7 hours ago, VickySGV said:

  Networking with actual Trans people as we try to keep the place here has helped all of us, even when in the end it fell on us to make our own choices.  If we talk about certain groups or resources here it is because we have found them useful in our Transitions and legitimately think they are good  I will have the 9th anniversary of my Gender Confirmation Surgery in two weeks and others on our staff have their own stories to tell or how they have fulfilled their dreams and needs.

Very well said Vicky!  While i sometimes feel the science that surrounds gender is interesting it doesn't change my reality.  I am helped much more towards self acceptance by conversations i have had with other trans folks than by studying the science put forth by either the pro or anti trans factions.

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

[VickySGV]

5 hours ago, Erica Gabriel said:

I share your frustration over the pseudoscience.

 

Over the past, by now, three + decades since my own coming out I have enjoyed watching the changes that have come as Trans people ourselves have become the degreed and published members of the scientific community.  The majority of the early researchers and theorists going back even to Freud were looking at the variations in human behavior that we present as sickness to be CURED by the standards of their days.  Some of those who approached it from that direction caught the public eye and became part of the controlling social culture that dictated that we were sick and those who supported us did it from the points of sexual perversion and it caught on with those folks to whom the universe had to be simple, direct and limited.  With our own Trans siblings and legitimate allies such as Dr. Harry Benjamin doing the research and scientific investigation in our regard, we have become people in the diverse but healthy range of human existence, and while medical involvement in our lives is helpful for leading our lives, it is not curative in the sense of changing our behaviors and feelings. Our problems come from those who still will not break from the pathology point of view.  AGP was one theory developed from Pathology involving Trans and homosexual individuals.  John Money's teachings also came from the idea that Intersex children were objects of Pathology and not a normal, recurring variation on human development. 

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, VickySGV said:

 

Over the past, by now, three + decades since my own coming out I have enjoyed watching the changes that have come as Trans people ourselves have become the degreed and published members of the scientific community.  The majority of the early researchers and theorists going back even to Freud were looking at the variations in human behavior that we present as sickness to be CURED by the standards of their days.  Some of those who approached it from that direction caught the public eye and became part of the controlling social culture that dictated that we were sick and those who supported us did it from the points of sexual perversion and it caught on with those folks to whom the universe had to be simple, direct and limited.  With our own Trans siblings and legitimate allies such as Dr. Harry Benjamin doing the research and scientific investigation in our regard, we have become people in the diverse but healthy range of human existence, and while medical involvement in our lives is helpful for leading our lives, it is not curative in the sense of changing our behaviors and feelings. Our problems come from those who still will not break from the pathology point of view.  AGP was one theory developed from Pathology involving Trans and homosexual individuals.  John Money's teachings also came from the idea that Intersex children were objects of Pathology and not a normal, recurring variation on human development. 

I’m assuming you’ve read Stryker’s book. I’m happy to have someone on here interested in Trans history. Thank you.

[VickySGV]

2 hours ago, Erica Gabriel said:

I’m assuming you’ve read Stryker’s book.

 

Well read! It is on the shelf behind me.  I have spoken with Dr. Stryker IRL. 

 

Also Julia Serano's books and blog.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, VickySGV said:

 

Well read! It is on the shelf behind me.  I have spoken with Dr. Stryker IRL. 

 

Also Julia Serano's books and blog.

I've read Whipping Girl. I've listened to the audio version of Transgender History twice. If you've ever watched Transparent they have an episode that features Magnus Hirschfeld just as the Nazi's charge in. That whole period of history seems a little too familiar right now. 

[VickySGV]

2 hours ago, Erica Gabriel said:

That whole period of history seems a little too familiar right now. 

 

It does seem that way.  Hirschfield's tragedy does indeed have shadows in our current social unrest.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, VickySGV said:

 

It does seem that way.  Hirschfield's tragedy does indeed have shadows in our current social unrest.

Happy New Year. Thank you for this conversation. Let’s keep up the good fight in the hope that the world will be better for future generations.

[helena]

On 12/31/2021 at 8:30 AM, VickySGV said:

There are people and scientific groups you can trust, and we try to be sure that those are the ones we allow to be included in our posts here.  Those of us on the staff here have had many years of experience learning to trust the sources.  In addition, we are telling our own stories and what we have found that helped us and not harmed us.  Even the best science however can be a disagreement between the scientists who are honest and not looking for a single answer to sell a product.  Networking with actual Trans people as we try to keep the place here has helped all of us, even when in the end it fell on us to make our own choices.  If we talk about certain groups or resources here it is because we have found them useful in our Transitions and legitimately think they are good  I will have the 9th anniversary of my Gender Confirmation Surgery in two weeks and others on our staff have their own stories to tell or how they have fulfilled their dreams and needs.

Congrats for your upcoming anniversary @VickySGV! Hope I can have one myself some day...

 

Please don't get me wrong. I have troubles trusting people in general. This place is excellent. Stories and experiences here give me some confidence and peace in mind accepting myself and what I probably need to do.

 

But then I run into something like this AGP theory, or some sensational news article covering some feud between trans people and "the rest of the world", and I question myself, my feelings, experiences and reasoning all over again. It's a lonely place to be.

 

On 12/31/2021 at 5:02 PM, VickySGV said:

Some of those who approached it from that direction caught the public eye and became part of the controlling social culture that dictated that we were sick and those who supported us did it from the points of sexual perversion and it caught on with those folks to whom the universe had to be simple, direct and limited. 

At the time this kind of approach was easy to sell and though the modern western world is more equal and tolerant today than it was, there's still this tribal kind of thinking embedded in human behavior which seems to reject "people from other tribes". Which of course are not tribes but people from different cultural, racial or sexual backgrounds.

 

Happy new year for you all!

[Desert Fox]

OMG. That theory has done a number on me for a decade and still hurts to think about. I have seen YouTube videos & read stories of a number of trans women who detransitioned as a result of coming to some kind of understanding that they are autogynephiles and thus they aren't "really" transgender. I was enraged to be called AGP because it is often equated to being nothing but a narcissistic fetish crossdresser. But as I am attracted to females/femininity, didn't "transition" and live in two genders, I am certainly don't meet the definition of HSTS trans either.

 

I find labels only useful to a point and otherwise they're problematic. Someone coins a term, other people like it, then things become polarized and you are either with us and belong in our cute little group of homogenized beliefs, or you're against us and deserve to be hated.

 

I believe there is SOME validity to the autogynephilia theory, but dividing the transgender experience into merely two strict categories is far too oversimplified and doesn't account for all the observed possibilities. Anyone can argue infinitely to make a theory sound like absolute truth, but it's only a theory and other people may disagree. When new technology becomes available and new information is learned, any theory can potentially be debunked.

 

We can't stop people from labeling us how THEY would like but I think we also therefore should have the right to label ourselves how WE would like or refrain from labeling ourselves at all if we prefer.

 

[Ivy]

It's weird how cis people can claim to know more about us than we do living it.

[Iris C]

On 2/16/2022 at 11:22 AM, Desert Fox said:

OMG. That theory has done a number on me for a decade and still hurts to think about. I have seen YouTube videos & read stories of a number of trans women who detransitioned as a result of coming to some kind of understanding that they are autogynephiles and thus they aren't "really" transgender. I was enraged to be called AGP because it is often equated to being nothing but a narcissistic fetish crossdresser. But as I am attracted to females/femininity, didn't "transition" and live in two genders, I am certainly don't meet the definition of HSTS trans either.

 

I find labels only useful to a point and otherwise they're problematic. Someone coins a term, other people like it, then things become polarized and you are either with us and belong in our cute little group of homogenized beliefs, or you're against us and deserve to be hated.

 

I believe there is SOME validity to the autogynephilia theory, but dividing the transgender experience into merely two strict categories is far too oversimplified and doesn't account for all the observed possibilities. Anyone can argue infinitely to make a theory sound like absolute truth, but it's only a theory and other people may disagree. When new technology becomes available and new information is learned, any theory can potentially be debunked.

 

We can't stop people from labeling us how THEY would like but I think we also therefore should have the right to label ourselves how WE would like or refrain from labeling ourselves at all if we prefer.

 

So well put. I agree totally.