“Unfixable” social dysphoria

[Juno_]

I feel like my social dysphoria as a non-binary person will never go away, at least if western society’s views on gender stay the same as now. People can avoid using she/her pronouns for me and not call me “Ms” or “ma’am” all they want, but it feels like with this weird societal binary socially engrained in everyone’s dumb brains, they will never see me as my actual gender. Like they’ll always see me as a girl, no matter what. It feels so much more different if I was a binary trans person, y’know? Cause at least my gender would be something cis, and honestly some binary trans people could actually comprehend. It feels like there is a major difference between being gendered correctly and being perceived as your gender. Anyone else kinda struggling with this? (Doesn’t have to just be non-binary trans people  )

 

Not to mention, social dysphoria gives me so much more shame than other forms my dysphoria takes, because I know it’s perfectly valid and everything, but it still feels like, why can’t it just be another thing I just don’t care about other people’s views on. I’m a fat, punk, mentally ill person of colour and I don’t care about what people think of me because of those things. So why should my stupid head make me care whether or not people see me as my gender?? But again, I logically know it’s valid, but emotionally I’m still stuck. 

[Kelly2509]

I have an agender friend who has similar frustrations.  They've said to me several times it would be simpler if they were a trans man because people just don't seem to get the idea of agender.  I personally love them to death because they bring the best of both worlds, but it seems like most people in their life really struggle with the idea that they aren't one or the other.  I guess my point is you're not alone feeling that way. :)

[Davie]

1 hour ago, Kelly2509 said:

it would be simpler if they were a trans man because people just don't seem to get the idea of agender.  I personally love them to death because they bring the best of both worlds

Thank you @Kelly2509

Well said for me, certainly. I'd certainly love to be accepted and liked as the best of both worlds, but it's not that easy for me. I always feel like I'm acting, putting on a show from the man I look like but not the woman inside. And it feels a lot like lying. I guess I need to know, understand, accept, and love the whole me, whomever that is. I would hope that then, others will do so too. Strangely, a woman counsellor at elder care services admitted, after I came out to her, that her partner is also non-binary. And the conversation leaped forward a few light years past a lot of pretending and into a sort of friendship. That would be ideal, but it's not how the world lives . . . just yet.

Thanks again,

— Davie

[Vidanjali]

16 hours ago, Juno_ said:

It feels like there is a major difference between being gendered correctly and being perceived as your gender.

 

...why should my stupid head make me care whether or not people see me as my gender??

 

What's the difference between being gendered correctly and being perceived as your gender? Is it the difference between courtesy for the sake of civility - a token, as it were, versus someone somehow demonstrating that they really get it. If so, what sort of behavior from others would indicate your gender is being validly perceived? 

 

I do think that gender neutral forms of address are rather in their infancy. I commend binary people who observe, respect, and practice them. But, does that mean they necessarily get it? If you're not nonbinary, can you ever really get it? Or is it not so much getting it as it is synthesizing the concept into your framework of normalcy?

 

I do struggle with this. And I do question why I struggle because I don't want to struggle. I tell myself that it's only important that I know who I am. Nonetheless, when who I perceive myself as is not reflected back by others, it is disconcerting at best. It's clear to me that who I see in the mirror is not who others see. Before I came to understand I'm nonbinary, and when I was going through a years-long phase of overcompensating as hyperfemme, I used to be terrified that anyone might see through my disguise - I thought they'd see me as a monster wearing makeup and a dress. I'd scrutinize myself in the mirror and see something other than a woman and I felt ashamed. Now, I see me in the mirror, a handsome person who for some reason gets called ma'am.

 

This may sound gross or weird or histrionic, but when I get called ma'am, I feel violated because I can't accept that they called me that because that's how I present, and therefore they are referring to the body I'm in. Strange how an ostensible form of "politeness" comes across to me as the other addressing my body and not me. At the risk of being overly explicit, it being called ma'am feels to me like I'm instantly reduced to what the other assumes is between my legs. Gross. I had a pleasant experience today. I have a student who calls me ma'am. Last week I asserted to him: I prefer "professor" over "ma'am". Today, he stayed after class to ask me something. As he departed, he said goodbye ma'... PROFESSOR! I thanked him. 

[Davie]

4 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

Strange how an ostensible form of "politeness" comes across to me as the other addressing my body and not me.

This American societal "need" to genderfy individuals is embedded deeply into a society based upon creating a ranking system. A ranking system, however, was only created to justify the power superiority of the elite. It allows them to set the agenda for everyone else and to maintain this power. It's the same system that created "white people" so the elite could continue discrimination that helps maintain power over blacks, women, immigrants, and LGBT folks.

— Davie

[Juno_]

7 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

2 hours ago, Davie said:

This American societal "need" to genderfy individuals is embedded deeply into a society based upon creating a ranking system. A ranking system, however, was only created to justify the power superiority of the elite. It allows them to set the agenda for everyone else and to maintain this power. It's the same system that created "white people" so the elite could continue discrimination that helps maintain power over blacks, women, immigrants, and LGBT folks.

— Davie

EXACTLY!! Perfectly said, I’m so happy you’ve brought this up! 

[Juno_]

16 hours ago, Kelly2509 said:

I have an agender friend who has similar frustrations.  They've said to me several times it would be simpler if they were a trans man because people just don't seem to get the idea of agender.  I personally love them to death because they bring the best of both worlds, but it seems like most people in their life really struggle with the idea that they aren't one or the other.  I guess my point is you're not alone feeling that way.

I’m glad it’s not just a me thing, I was kinda feeling guilty for envying binary trans people as though I was invalidating their experiences. But knowing I’m not the only person under the non-binary umbrella that feels this is nice :]

[Juno_]

7 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

This may sound gross or weird or histrionic, but when I get called ma'am, I feel violated because I can't accept that they called me that because that's how I present, and therefore they are referring to the body I'm in.

 I feel this so much, it’s so unnerving knowing another’s perception of you and it personally makes me feel like I’m being inspected in an almost perverse way. I don’t want to blame anyone for it, it’s just so invasive every time. Exactly as you put it, it’s gross. 

[Mary]

Just check that you aren't suffering from good, old-fashioned social phobia, which may have nothing at all to do with gender! Your therapist will be able to help you out there. Not that it's necessarily easier to deal with - just that you're in a much bigger group of good company!

[Mx.Drago]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:52 AM, Juno_ said:

 I feel this so much, it’s so unnerving knowing another’s perception of you and it personally makes me feel like I’m being inspected in an almost perverse way. I don’t want to blame anyone for it, it’s just so invasive every time. Exactly as you put it, it’s gross. 

Thank you and Thank you @Vidanjali !

It bothers me more than I'd like, but it literally is like a needle sticking me everytime I'm with people. Even though I know myself and I'm ok with myself, there's a rift that from my perspective isn't usually thought of by other people cuz of how normal it was made to be. It's frustrating.

I too feel it's gross, how unavoidably casual, Society made addressing a person by their gender a normal priority. It's like you're constantly being put on a scale of who can screw you and/or are you screwable.

How is my gender important to a random person I'm in no way interested in, let alone casual with? And godz forbid I roll an insight check and heavens strike me for questioning intent of words directed at me that literally are specifically ment for labeling me for some strangers form of personal comfort. Sadly, I've never felt such comfort.

I like sex and feel attraction to people, but when I'm with people I don't have a need to look and assess these entities for their private bits to just talk to them as just people. There needs to be an established relationship for me to recognize a persons gender, like friend, associate or family. It's a messy subject that wrecking balls the social normz and draws a line in the sand most people don't want cuz it's complicated and messy. I care little for messy, but complicated... I've got a clock running.

I'm just a gender nothing person till conversation with consent dictates a deeper relationship.

The thought of constantly having to explain to people I'm not male or female, I'm both, just makes me want to give up all social interactions entirely cuz why is it necessary for me to inform a stranger of my personal bits. What's this relationship?

It feels like I'm attacking the very fabric of reality just questioning, when all I'm looking for is just for consideration and maybe a shred of thought/respect/dignity/space. I constantly feel like that meme of a dog sitting having coffee in a burning room or 'The Scream' painting.

Be the wrecking ball, let it burn away, roar lion roar, just try to get past and out last. So when all is leveled you can establish your own ground rules. It's not unfixable, it's just going to be a painfully long overhauling process.😞

[sevan]

i dont really relate to this because i dont need external validation. i have my circle of friends that know about my queerness and accept me as who i am [even my parents]

i guess its because im still a teenager right now and as i advance into adulthood and have to associate with more people social dysphoria like this will start appearing. i honestly wish for an alternate universe or something where cisnormativity doesnt exist lmao