Ethical Question

[Guest Leigh]

I'm a plant - and I Love you Man!

Or was that I'm a planter - Planters - type of nut - back to nuts = full circle

I think I definitely proved I'm a nut Anyhow proves my theory - I'd like to see any of you try to break down that logic

At least we can agree I am a nut and full of fertilizer

I have to say I'm liking the vindictive graveyard shift thread ...

Joe

lol...joe you are awesome...we should stop being late night workers...i don't think it works well with our brains....

but, hey..maybe what we're really brilliant, and in 100 years someone will look back and say "remember those two weird guys who came up with the theory that humans are nuts and therefore eating nuts is cannibalism. they were so cool..."

yeah..........i'm getting more than carried away..i know.

whatever. it's the best i can do at this time in the morning for social interaction....

haha...yeah.

peace&love

leigh

[Guest joe0117]

yeah..........i'm getting more than carried away..i know.

whatever. it's the best i can do at this time in the morning for social interaction....

haha...yeah.

peace&love

leigh

I have the feeling "I understand" would be the understatement of the night.

And for the record Leigh - you are cool

I have to feed my plants - Do plants like Jello Jigglers?

I have a feeling someone slipped something in the cocoa in the member's lounge - *dumping out cocoa*

Joe

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Who do you think has to stay up late and review these things!

hee hee

LizzyAnne

[Guest joe0117]

Who do you think has to stay up late and review these things!

hee hee

LizzyAnne

Right - I knew I was supposed to do something - well in REVIEW late night/sleep deprived philosophical/ethical questions/dilemmas which result in bad joke/vindictive threads are a direct result of spiked virtual cocoa

See I stayed up all night to review this!

Joe

[Guest Deeedoo]

Even if plants don't have nervous systems the way we do, I am POSITIVE that they have feelings. Even my mom empathizes with plants, and she's not super spiritual. I can tell they have feelings. If you don't want to be eating seeds, I suggest you don't eat roots either. If you eat a root, you're killing the plant. I think you should eat leaves, fruits, and milk. Maybe you can take protein supplements.

[Sally]

Well as a student of the B Horror films produced in the 1950s I learned a lot of science - I learned about ants from the movie "Them" with James arness (before he dyed his hair brown) and James Whitmore - but I learned a bit about plants from the 1951 Classic version of "The Thing" Wher upon the discovery that the space invader was of plant origins one of the scientist explained that plants are even able to communicate with each other - like the telegraph vine which can send and recieve signals to and from other telegraph vines at a distance of several miles.

"It is only human arrogance that causes us to ignore intelligence in plants!"

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest Soph]

With my rather meager understanding of meta-ethics, I think you're overthinking this.

Its not a scientific matter, because all science is based on inductive reasoning, which is inherently flawed, as it is based on observation.

And you can't logically prove that something lives (I admit there are a great many shortcomings of logic).

Look at it this way. There are three reasons people try to live ethically.

1) Avoid punishment in life

2)Avoid punishment after-life

3) To be happy in life

We can see that all of these are related to happiness. So we live ethically to be happy, something called Egoism (not objectivist egoism, mind you. Objectivism is garbage)

Now, to the matter at hand. Does it make you happy eating plants? Well, since you're making this topic, it appears that it upsets you to a certain degree.

So, stop eating it. That is moral for you. Then again, on the other hand, you will die if you don't. Weigh the two against each other, choosing the lesser of two (rather literal in this case) evils.

You probably chose to eat plants.

Or, I could look at it like follows:

On the basis that ethical egoism is true (as I very strongly believe), as well as solipsism or the idea of philosophical zombies (both of which come to the conclusion that I am the only thing that feels emotion - impossible to prove or disprove), if it is ethical to do something that makes happiness (in this case, I think were talking about a utilitarianism, where I am the sole beneficiary), you must please me.

Therefore, if you make me unhappy, you are immoral. So eat the plants.

[Guest Eth]

Plants do not have nervous systems the way we do. They do not have a nervous system advanced enough to be conscious of ANY discomfort. They do react to stimuli, but they do not retain memory of "pain," nor fear of potential pain; no matter what you do to it, or how many times, a plant will not cease to grow in a particular direction as long as that direction is otherwise healthy (sunlight, water, pollinating bugs) for it. That is not speculation; that is supported by every ounce of scientific evidence we have on the subject. A plant's nervous system reacts, but does not retain; without retention of memories, it cannot suffer.

That isn't to say the theory is unfalsifiable; however, there is no evidence whatsoever thus far that any pain a plant might feel causes it torment. If your philosophy is "just in case," then it's understandable, of course. =) No insult intended, and I'm certainly not suggesting anyone intentionally tear plants up for the heck of it. My opinion is based on what science I know of the subject, is all.

Actually... Something interesting happened in a lab at a college (sorry I don't remember the details >_< I'll have to look it up again sometime) that might actually prove that plants can remember pain (or at least the deaths of other plants). There was a lady who took plants apart to study their insides, and also burned some to use the ashes in her research, and another lady that grew plants to study while alive. The second lady observed that when the first lady entered the room with the live plants, the plants would slowly (but rather quickly by a plant's standards) droop down regardless of where the light source was. She actually found that the plants stopped photosynthesizing and processing the water and neutrients in their soil for the duration that the one lady was in the room. It was almost as if the plants "fainted". So I guess you could say that, somehow they were conscious of the people in the room and also knew that one lady killed/burned other live plants. Interesting, eh?

Yeah sorry that I don't have the details... that's about what I remember. I would like to find out what college it was, who did the studies, exactly what they found and also what type of plant it was. It would be interesting to research.

As for food.. well. I eat vegetables, fruits, meat, fish, and just about everything. Strangely enough, it does always occur to me that I am eating something that was once alive. Call me sick.. but it doesn't bother me at all. I can perfectly picture the living creature as I am eating it's dead carcass, and it just doesn't phase me. I see it as logical- omnivores and carnivores have to eat other animals. Omnivores and herbivores have to eat plants, which are also living entities. We are omnivorous creatures, and we (despite what we may think of ourselves) are indeed animals. We eat to survive. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[Guest Leigh]

i can't even reply to all of these anymore..it's a good thing i checked out last night when i did...this could have been even longer.....

thanks for trying to answer my half serious question. though i was never really considering giving up eating plants.

i have come to the conclusion that i will grow as much of my own food as possible, and other than that, just be sure to tell the little plant dudes that i'm sorry i have to kill them to live....

lol...yeah. i am weird. *sigh*

oh well, i guess i'm in good company.

peace&love

leigh

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora Leigh,

As a Vegetarian - This is how I see things…

"A plant is just that -which Mother Nature ‘planted’- nowhere else to go-

except to be pulled up or picked and eaten- which is its natural flow…

They can not run from danger –that’s why they are meant to stay-

and be eaten when ripe and ready or they just rot away…

But a sentient being that can 'flee' from any pending danger -

is consciously aware of the threat from a stranger –

It knows fear and pain - because it’s not dumb-

being well aware of any suffering to come…

If it's 'free' to run on land, swims or on wings take to the air-

for me it’s not a food source - that's because I care…

For sentient beings once full of life I feel this must be said-

To feast upon their body parts – one becomes a graveyard for their dead!

We are what we eat some say-well at least I’m not a gluts-

along with a little fruit and vegetables-I’m quite happy being nuts!

Metta Jendar

[Guest Leigh]

Kia Ora Leigh,

As a Vegetarian - This is how I see things…

"A plant is just that -which Mother Nature 'planted'- nowhere else to go-

except to be pulled up or picked and eaten- which is its natural flow…

They can not run from danger –that's why they are meant to stay-

and be eaten when ripe and ready or they just rot away…

But a sentient being that can 'flee' from any pending danger -

is consciously aware of the threat from a stranger –

It knows fear and pain - because it's not dumb-

being well aware of any suffering to come…

If it's 'free' to run on land, swims or on wings take to the air-

for me it's not a food source - that's because I care…

For sentient beings once full of life I feel this must be said-

To feast upon their body parts – one becomes a graveyard for their dead!

We are what we eat some say-well at least I'm not a gluts-

along with a little fruit and vegetables-I'm quite happy being nuts!

Metta Jendar

lol..i love it!

peace&love

leigh

[Sally]

We are what we eat some say-well at least I’m not a gluts-

along with a little fruit and vegetables-I’m quite happy being nuts![/b]

Metta Jendar

I like that and I have saved this part of your quote so that no one will accuse me of being the one that called you nuts!

I am an Omnivor - I am restricted in what I eat only by what I can reach!

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest Neuro]

Heh heh... sorry if I don't sound very sympathetic, but I'm not a very ethical person when it comes to food I suppose. Animals eat plants and other animals--I am a pretty dumb animal, so I just eat what I can to get by. XD that includes things like nuts, seeds, fruit, cows, pigs, and whatever the bloody heck they put in fast food these days.

I feel very sad for the animals and plants that I sacrifice to fill my stomach, but at the same time I am a selfish creature who doesn't think he is above eating them... sadly.

I respect every vegetarian's moral and physical ethic to not eat meat or respect seeds and such. I wish I could be one, but--like I said, my ethics pretty much stop at not eating a human I pick up on the streets (hah hah!) I am far too uncivilized >_>

Sorry to all the lil' plant fetuses I have devoured. And to whomever I may offend with my cruel omnivorous actions. XD

[Guest Elizabeth K]

That would give a literal interpretation to "I have a rock in the pit of my stomach"

I'm sorry I know there is a thread for bad jokes...

Joe

Always knew you were a 'rock -ette' scientist!

[groan]

In this world, it seems everything eats everything else - well, if it is small enough. I know it can be cruel to raise animals and then eat them, seems so anyway. We can take milk from cows with little harm, but slicing out a New York cut isn't good at all for the cow. Perhaps there are compromises, here. We can eat the eggs but not the chicken for example. BUT somewhere along the line there is a time when animals are sacrificed for our benefit. Therein lies the question - and many look to vegitarianism.

But do plants hurt when youpull 'em up, slice off their skins, and drop them into boiling oil? We don't think they do because they have no neural systems. But everytime I forget to water my house plants I feel like I can hear them SCREAMING at me!. Well, I don't eat them, I just admire them. They have such short life lines (except most cactii can outlive us). They just look so nice, and we feed them a little mineral or organic rubbish and then let them have a drink, and then THEY STAB ME WITH THEIR THORNS ( I love growing roses).

Hee hee - silly I know.

So do we eat them? {food plants not roses} We breed them and hybreed them and DNA engineer them - all for our benefit. Ever see natural corn? Nothing there! So when we eat an ear of corn, 20,000 years of co-existance - these plants, the food plants, are totally tied in with our existance. If we suddenly disappear as a human race (poisonous meteour cloud? too many reruns on television?) they won't survive either - not as they are now. Same with most domestic animals

So we are not eating wild plants (or animals) we are eating our co-existing life forms. Maybe people are plants way of growing more plants? Or dosmestic animals' way for reproducing more domestic animals?

And stuff eats us when we die... its part of a cycle.

So chow down - but thank the plant or animal, that is the Native American Indian way.

Just an opinion (or two)

Elizabeth Anne

Lizzy

[Guest Leigh]

really interesting Lizzy. some of the more serious ideas of the thread, it's safe to say.

though i'd be more for people eating meat, etc. if they are willing to raise/kill/clean it themselves.

that way at least they know what's going into the process.

though i never presume that i have the right to tell anyone else how to live.

that's why we're all different, and can agree to disagree...

peace&love

leigh

[Guest Deeedoo]

I believe that every living creature is equal. Bacteria, protists, fungi, plants, and animals are all equal. I believe that it is okay to kill something in self defense or to eat it, and it makes me sad when people think that non-humans or non-animals don't have feelings because I know they do.

[Guest Neuro]

Agreed, I think everyone has feelings; every creature no matter how little feels =w=

It makes me sad when people abuse the animals they are about to eat. If I had any control over my meals, I'd want to treat them with respect and let them be happy before they had to die! ;__o

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Seriously

Many Native American Indian people would thank the animal (and I assume probably the plant) before a meal. This would seem to me to solve any ethical problems on a personal level. The other step would to avoid all food that involved a cruel practice, veal and goose pate' come to mind.

Lizzy

[Guest Eth]

Seriously

Many Native American Indian people would thank the animal (and I assume probably the plant) before a meal. This would seem to me to solve any ethical problems on a personal level. The other step would to avoid all food that involved a cruel practice, veal and goose pate' come to mind.

Lizzy

Exactly how I feel. Except I don't actually "thank" anything since I'm not spiritual at all... to me it'd be like muttering into the air. But that's an entirely different matter...

[Sally]

This brings up the point that most of us feel that killing an animal to eat it is OK a matter of survival until we over eat and it becomes gluttony.

I just don't understand hunting, to kill but not necessarily eat the kill just for a trophy, often hunters sell the carcass because it is far too expensive to have it dressed out to eat.

I hunt but only in supermarket aisles - it doesn't require a lot of equipment or any real skill but sneaking up to the fresh meat section and sliding a steak into my cart is at least as difficult as sitting in a blind and waiting for a deer to come eat the corn that you put out about 20 yards away and shooting it with a high powered rifle - all hail the mighty hunter with his battery operated hot socks and his electronic mating calls, the best camoflage that money can by and cooler full of beer.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest Leigh]

I believe that every living creature is equal. Bacteria, protists, fungi, plants, and animals are all equal. I believe that it is okay to kill something in self defense or to eat it, and it makes me sad when people think that non-humans or non-animals don't have feelings because I know they do.

exactly. since if i were living in a natural state i would only kill for those two reasons. and i would hope that everyone else would do the same..

and after having a "conversation" with a moth, and many other experiences, i cannot claim to be better or more worthy than any other life form.

you're a cool dinosaur. i think we'd get along in the physical plane of existence too...lol.

peace&love

leigh

[Guest Valentine]

This brings up the point that most of us feel that killing an animal to eat it is OK a matter of survival until we over eat and it becomes gluttony.

I just don't understand hunting, to kill but not necessarily eat the kill just for a trophy, often hunters sell the carcass because it is far too expensive to have it dressed out to eat.

I hunt but only in supermarket aisles - it doesn't require a lot of equipment or any real skill but sneaking up to the fresh meat section and sliding a steak into my cart is at least as difficult as sitting in a blind and waiting for a deer to come eat the corn that you put out about 20 yards away and shooting it with a high powered rifle - all hail the mighty hunter with his battery operated hot socks and his electronic mating calls, the best camoflage that money can by and cooler full of beer.

Love ya,

Sally

If there is someone else with their eyes on that steak, it can be down right difficult to get it into your cart. Dangerous too.

[Guest Leigh]

Seriously

Many Native American Indian people would thank the animal (and I assume probably the plant) before a meal. This would seem to me to solve any ethical problems on a personal level. The other step would to avoid all food that involved a cruel practice, veal and goose pate' come to mind.

Lizzy

i already do that...prolly cuz i'm a nerd.....

lol...or you know.. deeper spiritual things.

heck, why not just toss in that thank you when you're thanking the lord (if you do that)...or the chef... whatever.

peace&love

leigh

[Guest Leigh]

This brings up the point that most of us feel that killing an animal to eat it is OK a matter of survival until we over eat and it becomes gluttony.

I just don't understand hunting, to kill but not necessarily eat the kill just for a trophy, often hunters sell the carcass because it is far too expensive to have it dressed out to eat.

I hunt but only in supermarket aisles - it doesn't require a lot of equipment or any real skill but sneaking up to the fresh meat section and sliding a steak into my cart is at least as difficult as sitting in a blind and waiting for a deer to come eat the corn that you put out about 20 yards away and shooting it with a high powered rifle - all hail the mighty hunter with his battery operated hot socks and his electronic mating calls, the best camoflage that money can by and cooler full of beer.

Love ya,

Sally

yeah. (mostly) agreed about the killing for food bit.

but i have to say, i'd love to hunt....if i ate meat. but since i don't, there is no reason for me to (though fishing is fun....yeah. ok, fish is meat...but...well. that's my personal line)..

too bad nothing is old school anymore...i don't think we need them fancy machines and fancy stores to live. we have each other, and someone'll be willing to hunt and cook and everything....and as for the rest. well, we all just have to chip in.

geez...talk about philosophical ranting...lol.

peace&love

leigh

[Guest My_Genesis]

um...lol what a thought at 3am, you sound like me...i think the moral difference here is that with animals (this is all just theory, not my opinions or anything...just to clarify...), it's more about being compassionate and being able to empathise with the pain animals feel (i.e. when they are herded.) We as a society, it follows, go along with the idea that plants aren't "conscious" and therefore cannot consciously feel "pain" when you are...well 'killing' them i guess lol.

The other idea (which ive heard many times from my hippie of a father ) is that the more closely related a species is to humans, the more we connect with them and the less appeal they have (shall i say emotional appeal?) as a food source. reason it is more common to eat chicken (bird family) than say, cat meat (another mammal, which also functions as a domesticated companion pet )