Maybe the Cis Girls are right about men...

[KimmieElise]

Hi,

 

I haven't been here in a long time.  Life has been complicated and a rollercoaster ride.

 

So, last time I was here I identified as asexual, and probably demi-sexual.  I've had no desire for a relationship of any kind, neither romantic nor physical.  I was more than content being single.

 

Recently, I started playing a game called SCUM online.  This is a PC survival game.  The premise is your character is a convicted criminal sent to a near future penal colony where your experience might be televised to an audience.  What ist amounts to is scrounging through abandoned homes and businesses and various semi-abandoned military installations for all manner of goods, weapons, food and clothing to survive.  Player-verses-player (PvP) is only part of the issue.  There are reanimated prisoners called puppets who are effectively mindless zombies prowling" the colony, and the military installations are protected by mechs similar to those seen in the Robo-Cop movies.  This is a game where you need to team up with other players and the game provides a "squad" system with which to accomplish that.

 

I have played SCUM off and on for several years, since it came out, and like so many games, it is in "early access," which means the game developers are working on it while people play it.  The game has changed a lot.  I felt that in light of recent changes, I would try it again.  I joined a server and their Discord (a combined voice-over-internet and text communication system).  I put myself in a voice channel labelled LFG (Looking for Group) and waited for others to  join me to form a squad.

 

Well, a gentleman joined me and we hit it off right away.  We played until dawn two nights in a row.  We clicked big time.  I haven't pulled all-nighters in years!

 

Then it happened... Unexpectedly, I started feeling an attraction to this guy (romantic not sexual).  Some of it was his in-game behavior.  He treated me like a lady, opening doors for me and the like.  He was gallant, putting himself in harms way first.  He is confident about his real life and his game life.  He is generous, and at times gifted me hard to find items in-game which he had found, and knew I would like.  His dealings with other players demonstrated character, rather than the sheer predatory behavior of some players.  Eventually, I started crushing on him hard.

 

Okay.  So what do I do with this?  I've never liked a guy before.  I told him how I was feeling and he was not revolted, but didn't seem to indicate he had an opinion one way or the other.  I wrestled with my new found attraction for a time and eventually decided I needed to just go with it.  My experience is not going to be the same as a cis girl's and i  am going to have to learn how to navigate this relationship the way cis girls do, by just doing it.  I told him I wanted to be his girl, and he said he didn't know how to feel about that.  Okay, fair enough.  He'd always dated cis girls.  I get it.  I can give him some time to figure it out.  We had a good friendship going on.

 

A couple of days ago, he described and incident he had at work.  He owns a vape store and was in the parking lot with a friend.  He is into car audio and installs stuff for people.  He has won some competition. Apparently, his friend was showing him what had been installed recently in his friend's car, when a unknown man drove up and ordered them to turn down the music.  My love-interest apologized and said they would turn the music down shorty.  According to this guy I've been crushing on this new-comer said, "No, you'll turn it down now."  In response, he chased the man out of the parking lot.  The man called the police and he had to explain to the police what happened.  I asked him what he planned to do if he had caught the guy, and he said, "I don't know.  In my mind, that means he was running on rage.  In addition, it was pride (and not the good kind) which lead him to chase this guy.  I have often counselled cis girls, "If he will do it to someone else, under the right circumstances he will do it to you."  I don't want a guy who is violent and might turn on me.  I don't want to get a call, "Hey, hun, I am in jail."

 

The whole incident killed my crush, and I was a little mad at him for doing that.  I talked to him a couple of days later after I had had time to really think about it.  I told him how I felt and his reaction was, "well, that's how you feel."  It didn't invalidate my feelings, but it also kinda told me he didn't care that I felt uncertain I could trust him.  Wow.  I still care about this guy, but I haven't been able to play with him.  I am kinda heart-broken and kinda angry with him all at the same time.  I didn't expect him to be upset it killed my crush since we weren't really fully involved, but I figured he would care about my friendship.  He told me he didn't regret anything he did in that incident.

 

So, maybe the cis girls are right?  Maybe men are pigs.  Idk.  I just know I am wrestling with a whole lot of emotions I have never dealt with before.  Has anyone else dealt with this sort of thing?

 

(sorry for being long winded.  I had to get this off my chest.)

[Vidanjali]

I don't know if it's a matter of cis girls being right that all men are pigs. Consider first that not all cis girls go for men romantically/sexually. Also consider that it may be the case that many people are "pigs", regardless of gender, due to the relative development of human consciousness at this point in history. 

 

Now, speaking as someone who tried for many years to perform as a cishet girl (I'm afab and later came out as nonbinary trans), I can offer some perspective. From what you shared, your attraction to this guy first developed within a fictional context, the game. Moreover, it was a fiction in which your character was necessarily wary of others (the puppets and those you describe as predatory). He demonstrated chivalry, character, confidence, and generosity toward you in the game. These are all attractive attributes. It's not surprising that you developed a crush given all these circumstances. I do not say this to invalidate your feelings - quite the contrary - it all seems very romantic. There's a micro label under the asexual umbrella which denotes attraction to fictional characters. I would not presume to label you, but what's interesting to consider is that most crushes are attraction to fictional characters to the extent that what we are usually crushing on, for better or for worse, is largely our personal expectations we have projected onto the subject of the crush. 

 

When you shared your feelings, he did not react one way or the other. When you said you wanted to be his girl, he said he didn't know. I can tell you with certainty that if a guy is interested, he does not balk. When a guy gives such ambiguous responses, it usually means he's not interested, but lacks the decent character to tell you - guys justify that they're "sparing your feelings" by not telling you outright that they're not interested, but really it's due to cowardice and a lack of respect (and sometimes they also don't want to give up whatever ego boost they get from knowing you find them attractive, even when it's not reciprocated). Although your feelings are on the line when you make yourself so vulnerable to express your feelings, take a step back and realize his lack of definitive response was a red flag, and useful information - you actually dodged a bullet with this guy. 

 

I agree 100% that his behavior in the parking lot incident is a major red flag, and the fact that that killed your interest in him is a testament to your character. So, although it hurts, bravo! I know that's easy for me to say - I'm not the one experiencing the emotional pain you describe. I'm just trying to offer some perspective. 

 

Feel what you feel, and comfort yourself. Think about what you've learned. You have the potential to be attracted to a man. That's neat. You now know what kind of man you like (a man with good manners, who is protective, thoughtful, and emotionally mature), and what kind of red flags to be aware of (reluctance to discuss feelings, lack of forthrightness in expression, engaging in dangerous and impulsive behavior). You also now know how to better safeguard your own feelings. Next time you tell someone you're interested in them, consider how you may approach it differently, and in such a way that you will be able to get the information you need from the other person to decide what to do (or what not to do) next.

 

Time does heal all wounds (with some self-effort, that is). Don't discount all men just because of this one guy who is obviously not the model of emotional fortitude. And also, be mindful of your own expectations when you next find yourself interested in someone. I'm saying this from experience - as I was performing cishet femme for so long, very many times I projected my desire to have a guy "save" me from my "freakishness" - that is, to validate me as "normal" onto many guys with disastrous results. That's a rather extreme example of projection onto a crush, but I'm sharing as a cautionary tale. There is a way to see this ostensible disappointment as an opportunity to learn about yourself and to grow. 

[Betty K]

Hi @KimmieElise, I totally agree with Vidanjali, so I won’t add much. I do want to share an insight from my dating experiences, though. I have not identified as transfeminine for long, and consequently the only men I have dated are people I’ve met online. I keep hoping a man will approach me in “the real world” but so far it never happens, and I imagine such experiences are rare. But ultimately, I have given up on online dating apps both because they’re addictive and because they’re so often disappointing. To me, there is a massive difference between meeting someone virtually and meeting them in three dimensions. As I always say to men who become fixated on the few photos I share (photos which, obviously, I vet carefully and which show me at my very best), sex happens in three dimensions. Attraction happens in three dimensions. Yes, I know that couples do meet online and that some of them even marry and live together happily without ever having occupied the same room, but surely those occurrences must be rare. Then again, maybe I prioritise actual physical attraction more than many people. So I’ll confine myself to saying that, just in case physical attraction is important to you, I don’t believe chemistry can be communicated via a computer. 

[stveee]

On 10/31/2022 at 3:29 PM, KimmieElise said:

 

 

The whole incident killed my crush, and I was a little mad at him for doing that.  I talked to him a couple of days later after I had had time to really think about it.  I told him how I felt and his reaction was, "well, that's how you feel."  It didn't invalidate my feelings, but it also kinda told me he didn't care that I felt uncertain I could trust him.  Wow.  I still care about this guy, but I haven't been able to play with him.  I am kinda heart-broken and kinda angry with him all at the same time.  I didn't expect him to be upset it killed my crush since we weren't really fully involved, but I figured he would care about my friendship.  He told me he didn't regret anything he did in that incident.

 

So, maybe the cis girls are right?  Maybe men are pigs.  Idk.  I just know I am wrestling with a whole lot of emotions I have never dealt with before.  Has anyone else dealt with this sort of thing?

 

 

    Yeah, you got the "Ick".

My cis BFF swears by it and 86's guys when it happens and moves on to the next one. I think it has to do with women's intuition tho I have yet to experience it in a dating situation.

Interesting thing about the online VR aspect of dating tho. Some say it's a good way to screen people.

[Betty K]

3 hours ago, stveee said:

Interesting thing about the online VR aspect of dating tho. Some say it's a good way to screen people.

 

Yes, I can see that perspective. You do have a chance to weed out the bad ones and to discuss shared interests with the good. But it can also lead to making overly positive presumptions about what they’re going to be like in physical reality. I think in every instance it’s best (for me at least) to not presume too much. The mind rushes to fill in absent details with positives. Think about how much better looking people tend to look in covid masks, for eg (or is that just me?).

[KimmieElise]

14 hours ago, Betty K said:

I keep hoping a man will approach me in “the real world”

I have actually been approached in the real world.  Wasn't that great of an experience.  Guy told me he had a big "member" and it was "long too," but thought I "could handle it."  Uh... NO THANKS!!!  LOL..  I laughed about it after the fact, but YIKES! What a creep!  Be careful what you wish for.  LOL.

 

Totally, not about the physical for me.  I am attracted to personality, character, and the like.  Few guys are good looking in my book.  Of the few I find the least bit appealing are like HeavyD Sparks of TV and Youtube fame. Just never really wanted a relationship with a guy before.  I find some men and some women to be physically beautiful, but that's it.  It doesn't compel me in any way to want anything from them.  This guy sent a picture of himself to me, and to be honest I wouldn't have looked at him twice if I didn't know him.

[Betty K]

8 hours ago, KimmieElise said:

Few guys are good looking in my book.

 

Hi KimmieElise. I understand, but just to be clear, I’m not talking about appearance. In my life, the excessive focus on appearance is an outmoded masculine way of understanding attraction. As a male-presenting person with a system full of testosterone, I used to mainly be attracted to women for their appearances. Personality was important to me, of course, but I could easily desire a woman based entirely on her appearance. But the way I’m attracted to men is totally different. Appearance matters, but, as you say, personality is way more important. But what’s even more important is chemistry.

 

”Chemistry” is a word that used to annoy me when women would say it. “There just isn’t enough chemistry between us,” a woman might say. I used to go away wondering what the hell they were talking about. Now I think I have a better idea. What is most desirable, to me, in a man is his energy. How does his physical presence make me feel? How does he move, talk, laugh, express his desire? (The guy who approached you completely failed this last test, obviously.) This has always been important to me — it was important with women too — but I’ve only just realised how important. I used to think appearance could override it. I was wrong. 

 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

I think that chemistry is one thing, and behavior is related but separate.  You may have found chemistry, but you didn't find the behavioral traits you were looking for.  I typically don't find much of either in most people, regardless of sex or gender.

 

And people vary tremendously.  For example, my GF regularly does stuff like the guy you described, and while sometimes I shake my head and wonder what she's thinking, it doesn't turn me off.  When I hear women say things like "all men are pigs," I sympathize with the frustration behind the statement, without agreeing to it.  I suspect the meeting and dating process is awful for just about every one. 

 

@Betty K brings up a good point about chemistry and communication.  In person and online can be different, but that depends heavily on the two (or more) people involved.  Only you can know yourself and your process of getting to know somebody else. 

[Red_Lauren.]

I'm bi-sexual my self. While I have a certain look I love in men. Muscles, beards, tattoos, and long hair. I can't honestly ever see my self with one. Its not that I haven't tried. In the end they end up disappointing me. 

 

Some times it will start off good with them, but gos off the rails rather quickly. Other times they get a instant block. I got a message from a man this summer. Literally asking if I ever took a big one. I responded back yea I have. They are in my drawer right now. He responded back by saying some thing thing even more dumb. I was beyond annoyed at this point, and was like look dude. At least they are smart enough to read a profile, and know I'm not interested. 

 

Right now I've been in a relationship with a cis woman for the last 4 months. Honestly it's kinda funny. We clicked so well from the start. The best part is she dosn't want any thing to do with my thing, and I get what I want from a man, but without the bs. 

[StephieGurl]

Cis or trans women, men are pigs. But, not all of them. There are nice guys out there, but I don't care how nice a guy is, I have absolutely no sexual or romantic interest in them. I am Noma to the max. 

 

It is interesting that when I first started to transition and not even on hrt, I was getting a few guys who were hitting on me. I was flatter, but I had to tell them no. Now, that I actually look like a woman, I am not getting hit on at all. A few compliments, but it is about as close as it goes. 

 

I like it better that I engage with woman. I had assumed I was a translesbian until I got a crush on this worker at a grocery store I shop out. I seem to find attraction in stores, The crush surprised me, but then another and another. It finally dawn on me that I was just a lesbian. That is not exactly true I like girls when my life was lived as a guy, and I like girls now that I am a woman. This is because I did not go from straight to guy. I do use lesbian as it is an  easy term that people will understand. 

 

But, sexually, I am self sexual. I am attract to have sex with myself, or am I in love with my magic wand. (lol). 

[KimmieElise]

Over the last few days, he's been less and less active in game, and less and less willing to talk with me on discord.  When I asked him about it, he kinda brushed off my questions.  I told him I was no longer crushing on him as a result of the incident, but I still wanted to be his friend.

 

Last night we participated as a team in an event we'd both signed up for.  We got second place.  Today, he barely communicated with me, and did not log in at all after work.  Before, he would have at least let me know he was tired and going to bed early or something.  I have to believe one of two things is going on.  He either was having an ego trip and is mad it is over, or he was feeling an attraction toward me he'd not admit to and is upset that's over.  He says he needs to "be hard so people don't take advantage of  him."  Maybe this is his "hard" way of dealing with feeling let down.

 

Whatever is going though his head, it hurts that he's not communicating now.  Time to just fade out of this relationship I think.  If he really is hurt or wants me as his friend then he's going to communicate with me.  I have to move on if he's not going to be clear about what he wants.

 

I am super sad about the whole thing.