Church has not become part of my social network

[Ivy]

4 minutes ago, Marcie Jensen said:

As for women and hats in church, it was originally taken from Torah as a sign of respect for God. I'm not sure how it was determined by the RCC that they were no longer required, but it is interesting.

I think there are times when the church follows the culture and then looks for justification.  Not that following the culture is always a bad thing.  We all have to live in it.  

And then there are the Amish, and Mennonites.  

BTW, it wasn't only the Catholics that covered women's heads, although that may have been more cultural than a requirement.

[Marcie Jensen]

6 minutes ago, Ivy said:

I'm not sure suicide is a sin.  There are situations when… IDK, like in war what about a "suicide mission"?  Is sacrificing oneself a kind of suicide?  In that case Jesus himself… Since he is supposed to be God, he could have stopped this.  And what about a terminal disease?

It's not specified in Scripture, per se, but I expect that it would fall under the commandment of "Thou shalt not Kill." The rationalization being that if one is not to commit murder (the actual Hebrew verbiage), it would include taking one's own life. Whether it's a sin or not, that's an echelon well beyond my paygrade.

 

As for suicide missions, etc., I think those fall under the topic expressed by Jesus in John 15:13; "truly I tell you greater love has no one than this to lay down one's life for one's friends."

 

With regard to Jesus, He IS God--fully human and fully divine. Period. Second, yes, he could have stopped his crucifixion, but didn't. He even prayed to this effect in the garden of Gethsemane, but in the end chose to do his father's will and fulfill prophecy and through His work on the cross at Calvary became humanity's redeemer. To be frank, to say or imply anything else is to a Christian, heresy. It's also highly offensive, though we don't get to say that in public.

 

What about terminal disease? I think that's a personal decision for eve4ryone involved. A matter of conscience, if you will. When my late grandfather was dying of cancer many years ago, the thought of suicide never entered his staunch Missouri Synod Lutheran mind, and at a mere 6 years of age, I watched him slowly waste away buoyed up only by his faith. I don't know if I would have such courage. I think in instances like the terminally God would show mercy and forgiveness.

[Dillon]

44 minutes ago, Ivy said:

I'm not sure suicide is a sin.

Sorry, I wasn't clear with my wording. Contributing to the causes for someone's suicide by removing social supports and mentally harming them is what I meant was the Church's sin.

[Dillon]

25 minutes ago, Marcie Jensen said:

to say or imply anything else is to a Christian, heresy

I share this very basic belief that Jesus is God, and sometimes it is the only thing that can get me through my day. But a lot of people who don't believe it take shelter in the Episcopal Church. i need to check on what John Shelby Spong had to say about it. There are atheists in the Episcopal Church too, Joan Didion having been a famous one. 

 

Jehovah Witnesses don't believe it, right?

[Ivy]

10 minutes ago, Marcie Jensen said:

With regard to Jesus, He IS God--fully human and fully divine. Period.

Yeah, I meant no offense.  Of course this is central to Christianity.  I was just saying that he was complacent in his death, his choice, not making a judgment on it's necessity.

 

I had two siblings die from ALS.  I'm kinda surprised I haven't myself.  At one point I thought I had it - but it turned out to be a sodium deficiency.  But back to the subject.  

My brother fought it to the end.  He had a feeding tube, and Tracheotomy.  I helped his wife care for him till the end.  His life was miserable, but he was afraid to die.  But of course it was inevitable.

When my sister, who had also helped at times, was diagnosed, she made the decision to not follow his example.  When her health deteriorated to that point, she decided to stop eating or drinking.  Hospice helped keep her comfortable and she went out on her own terms.  It was a suicide I suppose.

I personally believe she made the right choice, and I would do the same.

[VickySGV]

37 minutes ago, Dillon said:

I need to check on what +John Shelby Spong had to say about...

 

It takes about 4 or even 5 times reading his material to really get what he is saying because your own preconceptions get in the way.  He flies in the face of what many Bible Literalist people, especially those who think Jesus spoke British or North American English back in his missions.  He comments on a goodly number of cases where that did not work well because translators did not appreciate that some of the oldest writings were idiomatic and applicable only clearly to the time written.  His most famous quote that is used by TEC is "I love the Bible too much to take it literally".   Translation is not enough, interpretation relies on having the mindset and shared experiences as the originator of a statement even by the city in which they spoke it to fully get its meaning.

 

A Priest whom I correspond with was one of his Transitional Diaconate Chaplains and we have had some very enlightening discussions.  This Priest was also one of the officers of the now dissolved Integrity organization that was behind the changes in the Church Canons in regard to LGBT participation in the Church which is now full participation in Clergy and Lay ministries.  Integrity has been incorporated into an actual working group in the Office Of The Presiding Bishop, ++Michael Curry.  +Spong was a supporter of LGBTQ inclusion and full participation in the church. 

[Dillon]

1 hour ago, Ivy said:

I had two siblings die from ALS.

Ivy, I'm so sorry. 

My personal view is that is not suicide, but I have no business having an opinion about any end of life decision someone else makes.  (BTW, it's the decision I would choose and that I personally see as being in harmony with Nature's process of life and death.)

[awkward-yet-sweet]

2 hours ago, Dillon said:

In the discussion of sin, I didn't notice one topic addressed: suicide by queer people. Jesus tells us not to lead children astray (Matthew 18:6). Queer suicide is a direct result of Christianity (and I am deeply committed to Christ) demonizing homosexuality and saturating historical European culture with that.

 

Suicide is definitely an issue.  So are depression and mental illness.  Historically, suicide has been viewed as a sin...but I don't agree with that perspective.  Suicide is not a natural act, as every fiber of a person's being tends to hold on to life.  Unless/until something in a person's brain and spirit get broken by something traumatic. 

 

Going back to my positive perspective on the Law...the Law helps us to move towards God's best for us.  It is for our good.  If the Law is meant for our good...which is worse? To uphold the Law and experience extreme depression and/or suicide?  Or to choose a relationship that doesn't necessarily represent God's best for us, yet remain alive and relatively content?  Which choice best honors the spirit of the Law? 

 

My community's perspective is that due to original sin, the world is a broken place.  Life doesn't always break down neatly into "sin" and "not sin,"and sometimes we are put in a position of choosing the best of less-than-ideal options.  Sometimes God's best plan for us isn't available due to life's circumstances.  Sometimes all available choices are sin of some sort.  We do our best with what we have, intend good things for ourselves and our neighbors, and trust that Jesus covers all the sticky spots. 

 

 

 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

2 hours ago, Dillon said:

Contributing to the causes for someone's suicide by removing social supports and mentally harming them is what I meant was the Church's sin.

 

Agreed.  One of the basic tenets of the faith is caring for one's neighbor.  And the story of the Good Samaritan answers the question, "Who is my neighbor?"  Churches cannot hide from the fact that LGBTQ+ folks are neighbors to be cared for and treated with respect. 

 

I think a big part of the problem today is that church communities struggle with the balance between truth and love.  They miss the mark on "keeping the main thing as the main thing."  There are even ways to disagree with somebody's beliefs and lifestyle while continuing to value a human being created in the image of God. 

[Marcie Jensen]

hJohn Shelby Spong was a polarizing figure within and outside the Anglican Communion. Among his chief detractors were Raymond Brown and Rowyn Williams, who was Archbishop of Canterbury and thus head of the entire Anglican denomination which includes the Episcopal Church. He was a novel thinker who continued the theological work of Peter Abelard, who was, imho, one of, if not the greatest 12th century theologians.

 

 

[Dillon]

There will be some confirmations at my parish next month. One of the priests called and invited me to participate by reaffirming my baptismal vows using my new preferred name. (I'm already confirmed and received.) I'm posting this here because one of my main reasons for probably saying no is what I've said about this parish not being part of my social network after being there for two years. Renewing the vows in front of the congregation feels too personal to share with them. I also haven't changed my name legally yet, so it feels premature. When I do change it legally, I am planning to not do the Episcopal ceremony for that with this congregation because again it feels too personal to share when my relationship with them is so distanced.

The other thing is that I avoid bishops because that helps me to keep going to church and put aside old hurts that otherwise start to drive a wedge between me and church (because I'm not perfectly able to rise above my feelings, I'm just not). I was going to skip church on the confirmation day so as not to be around the bishop. So I told the priest this is one reason I am hesitant (I don't feel like I owe him an explanation, but we have a good history and communicate well), and he told me this bishop is retired, from a different diocese, a personal friend, and feels very strongly about lgbt support in the church. I have a painful history with a bishop who was in my diocese and had built a reputation for helping lgbt people and let me down when I went to him, so I don't believe that anyone's opinion that someone is lgbt supportive is necessarily realistic.

The only reason I'm putting thought and prayer into this is that I've been through other issues being trans there and this priest has walked beside me through all of it and given me a lot of public support. I can't lightly dismiss his idea about me renewing the vows, so I'm giving it time. I don't think he knew that I hadn't changed my name legally, so I emailed him about considering that, and I'm waiting to hear back. That might render all of it moot. (Although I doubt it because at a committee meeting last night he pulled out the BCP and read a line from the baptismal vows. Heh.) I also emailed and asked him if he could tell me, or direct me to an online source, about what his bishop friend has actually done to promote lgbt social justice in the church.

I don't need a solution this minute. It just helps to write this out where I know there are people who understand. 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

@Dillon It sounds like you are being put in an uncomfortable spot.  I'd let them know that you're a bit uncomfortable and need some time.  Or do a "slow fade" until you can figure out what you want to do.  

 

Not everyone is comfortable being in front of a large group, either.  My community likes a big baptism celebration, but occasionally someone shy chooses to do it with just a small group.  There should be options for everyone.

[Dillon]

13 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

There should be options for everyone.

Thank you for the support. Your comment brings up something about this--options for everyone, right, and that implies everyone who wants to do something. It's not like there's something I want to do. I might decide there is a reason I want to do it. I guess that's part of what I'm thinking about. 

 

It feels like a fabricated need. 

[Dillon]

Plus it means standing up, although I guess they can bring in a chair for me. And hanging out with the bishop after, which is excruciating. I'm too tired for this. 

[Charlize]

I am always glad to read about those who find a path within an "organized" religion as implied by the word "church.  My spirituality is not found there despite, or perhaps because of having an undergraduate degree in religion.  

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

[Dillon]

18 minutes ago, Charlize said:

 My spirituality is not found there

I've known people who feel closer to God after leaving church. I think it's  very much an individual thing.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

2 hours ago, Dillon said:

Plus it means standing up, although I guess they can bring in a chair for me. And hanging out with the bishop after, which is excruciating. I'm too tired for this. 

Well, not doing should always be an option too.... actually, multiple ways of not doing. 😉

[awkward-yet-sweet]

I'm not sure how other people feel about this, but I don't attend on Sunday just to get close to God. Yes, it is a God-centered activity, but I think the point of assembling with other people is to have relationships with other people.  You can maintain your connection with God personally and alone... So if your faith community is not meeting your needs for human interaction, you can go looking for a different community. 

[VickySGV]

New York has been a problem area for Bishops with ultra conservative views of LGBT people and I have followed this through a national Episcopalian LGBTQ organization, and another that is Trans Episcopalians.  The Bishops have been ultra conservative to the borderline of schismatic from TEC and I feel sorry for the people under their jurisdiction.  One of them recently was forced into retirement by the Presiding Bishop with the help of an Ecclesiastical Court of other Bishops. 

 

For blessing a new name, it does not require a Bishop any more, per The Book Of Occasional Services, Rite Of Renaming which is not just for Trans people. Out here in my diocese it is preferred that Trans and all but vocational named people have a secular legal name change going into it.  I have been a participant on three occasions of its use, but it is one for you to discuss at YOUR COMFORT with your sponsoring Priest if you want it done at all, ever.  You can see the book on-line if you look for it by the name above.

 

The Prayer Book rite of Affirmation is again one of your comfort and decision to make.  I had been fully out in my parish for 5 years at the time I took part in it.  My then (now deceased) Bishop was a full supporter of LGBTQ people and had worked with my priest when I first came out, although my priest actually was part of the LGBT umbrella herself.  My current Bishop actually appointed me to his special commission on LGBTQ ministry.  My parish is not my major involvement but I do take part in LGBTQ activities at the higher level.

 

YOU DO YOU!!  I makes you no less a person to not take part in it.  I am trying to inform, not anything more.

 

 

[Dillon]

@VickySGVThank you for the information and context. I googled this bishop today, and he's one of the three that announced that they would allow priests to perform same sex marriages, soon after (as I recall, the very next day) the Marriage Equality Act was signed. So that's a plus. The priest is going to ask the rector about my legal name change question, and if I decide I want to do this, and if the rector says OK, I am going to ask the priest to clear it with this bishop too.

It really doesn't make sense without the name change, though. I haven't changed it yet because I am looking for a coop apartment and I don't want to explain to the board that I changed my name because I'm trans. It doesn't seem safe to announce it so broadly at a building that will become my home. So there's a discrimination factor that might make a difference, but as I have no burning desire to do this, idk.

The one thing is that I feel it could help some of the kids there. A young adult in the congregation abruptly left her home and the area because of how her family was rejecting everything about her being trans. I didn't know her. Leaving home might have been a good decision for her anyway, but without my support while she was in the congregation--that's sad.

 

Just sharing out loud as I sort out what I want. Thank you for the context. It helps.