How to enlighten friend's narrow understanding of trans women?

[Vidanjali]

Hi dear ones. Yesterday I spent the day at the beach with a close friend. I'm out to her, and she makes an effort to correct herself when she inadvertently refers to me using feminine terms (like "hey girl", for example). She is generally open minded and, I thought, an ally. But, yesterday she revealed what I perceived as some blind spots. I wanted to discuss here so that if this ever comes up again with her or anyone else, I'll be better prepared to present some more compelling perspectives.

 

In the abstract, I thought I'd know what to say, but in the moment, I felt a variety of things. I felt uncomfortable and anxious, I didn't want to put my friend on the offensive or to upset her or give her the impression I think she's a bad person.

 

Picture this. We're having this conversation in the ocean. At some point I felt like submerging myself and not coming up, I was so uncomfortable. But, we persisted. We had to agree to disagree and we had a good rest of the day. After our conversation I asked her if she was upset with me. She was aghast and said no. I am much more concerned that you were upset with me. I said I still love you, I feel like we all have more to learn though. And then we went on with the day.

 

I appreciate anyone's feedback, especially sisters here. TW for ignorant beliefs about trans women.

 

Earlier in the day, for some reason Harry Potter came up in conversation. My friend was saying that reading those books got her through a time in her life where she was rather depressed and needed a distraction. She claimed that ultimately the message of the books was that everyone should be accepted no matter how apparently different they were. I said, that is remarkable considering the opinions and mindset of the author. My friend did not know what I was talking about. I told her that the author was well known for being against trans people, especially trans women. My friend had not heard about that. Later, while we were in the ocean, something else came up which was relevant to my asking her if she knew what a TERF was. She did not. I told her that it was an acronym and it stood for trans exclusionary radical feminist, and that was what JK Rowling was. I qualified by explaining that those people do not accept trans women as women and furthermore are apt to support actions which oppress trans women and therefore all trans people. My friend lit up and said now that's something I had always wondered about - what the feminists have to say about trans women. I clarified that there are many different ways to be feminist, that I in particular consider myself an intersectional feminist and what that means, and that TERFs tend to err on the side of h8red. I told her that I agreed with many sage individuals who have said that if any of us are oppressed we are all oppressed.

 

My friend honed in on the issue of trans women and girls in sports. She claims that she had no issues with trans women outside of that context, however, in the course of discussing sports, she continually referred to trans women she girls as men and boys. Her argument was that spaces for women (and by women, she really meant cis women) should be sacred and limited strictly to (cis) women. She repeatedly asserted that biology largely determines behavior. That is, she insisted that if someone were assigned male (she actually said if someone is a man) at birth, that even if they had transitioned, their original biology would somehow make them a threat in (cis) women's spaces. She said that (cis) women, having been historically oppressed by men, need such spaces and benefits for them to be able to become successful and actualized. I presented a scenario to her as follows. Say you had a trans woman who had transitioned such that she passed 100%. That individual had not had the benefit of having been socialized female. Wouldn't she then also benefit from being in those spaces so that she could become actualized? My friend said I see your point, but unless that person had transitioned so that their biology was 100% identical to a (cis) woman's (which is impossible), then no, they have no place in women's spaces because "biology dictates behavior". She was adamant about this, and it made me feel very uncomfortable.

 

In retrospect, as I write this and reflect, it occurs to me that it's her feeling of being threatened that makes her so insistent about this. I do not think that there is any sort of "argument"  so to speak that I could present about trans people and trans women that would make her see things a different way because I believe that ultimately it is about her feeling personally vulnerable and threatened. Frankly, I don't welcome revisiting this with her. But perhaps it will come up naturally in the future sometime. It also made me wonder how valid my nonbinary identity really is to her because at some point in the conversation she said something about how identifying as a gender other than that which was assigned at birth is mental, whereas I experience it more holistically. That is, "mental" seems to imply some sort of dissonance or illness, or at least reduces a person's gender identity to mere thought. But, gender identity is so much more ephemeral and essential than a mental construct.

 

As for sports in particula, I told her I do not have a definitive opinion about it because there is so much variability when thinking about an analyzing the issue. I could have provided numerous examples and facts, but it did not seem to be appropriate in the moment -she was not to be compelled by such information. I did tell her that I felt that if she actually knew any trans women (she does not), that she would benefit from learning what it was like for them and thereby likely have a richer insight into femininity.

 

Thanks as usual for listening.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

My GF says some similar things, and some days I think she sounds a little bit TERF-y.  I'm sort of in the middle as I started out female, and now I'm more in my boy form....and still in a relationship with the GF who says stuff like "boys are icky." 😏  Maybe I understand a small part of how you feel.  💞

 

Even though you disagree with her, there's a kernel of truth in what she says.  Perspectives don't just appear from nowhere.  For example, biology can somewhat dictate behavior.  I recall a study from Britain I read that showed that trans female criminals actually retain a male pattern of criminal behavior.  Transitioning may not change brain structure, and there's a lot that we simply don't know about brain chemistry.  How important is all that?  I'm not sure.  I think we have to be cautious when turning unknowns into absolutes. 

 

I think that advocates for trans women ought to be able to make space for cis women who feel uncomfortable, just as cis women ought to be moving toward making spaces inclusive for trans women.  I think we can acknowledge that trans women and cis women aren't exactly identical.  I think we can acknowledge the discomfort that some people feel on the issue without necessarily interpreting it as hate or opposition.  I think we can sympathize with people's fears even when we find them illogical.  Life is squishy, emotions are messy, and everybody's path looks different.

 

Is gender identity mental?  I kind of doubt that your friend meant it like "mental illness."  It sounds more like a philosophical question.  Something that doesn't really have an answer....I certainly don't know if it is mental or not.  Nature vs nurture?  Mind vs body vs situation?  Those sorts of things are why I'm a visual artist and not a writer 😆  Is our gender identity real to others?  Maybe.  Maybe it is something only we ourselves understand.  In my case, I'm not sure I really understand my own, let alone understanding somebody else's experience.  The best I can ask is for people to continue the conversation. 

 

I think the way to deal with it is to accept that your friend's views are different and maybe always will be.  For your future with this friend, maybe you can work it out.  You might have an entirely different conversation on the same topic another day.  Or you might mutually decide to not talk about it again, and continue to be friends with an understanding that you just don't agree.  Multiple options...again, squishy and messy life.  It ain't easy, is it?

 

 

 

 

[MaybeRob]

Trying to change someone's perception on any subject needs to be carefully considered. Unless you find your friends

opinions offensive I would probably look at it as a long-term project. Close friends are not the easiest to find.

 

I don't have much knowledge in gender issues - but my brother is an anti vaxxer, A Trump believer (yes in Australia) and 

is into conspiracy theories. With him there is no changing his opinions or educating him - we just shut him down.

We still maintain family contact though. 

 

Gender in sport is such a difficult topic! I don't see any outcome that will keep everyone happy. I do picture myself on a women's netball team and wreaking havoc (in my sporting days I was 83kg and athletic) it would be quite dangerous, but I also see people no posing an increased risk of injuring others. It is also a subject that has been politicized, so false information is being pumped out which makes it more difficult.

 

I would give your friend some leeway but do explain what does bother you.

 

Hugs

 

MaybeRob

 

[AllieJ]

Pretty much all of our problems as trans people comes from ignorance of what trans actually is. Most cis people, and many trans people believe that trans, and gender identity, are mental, something we want to escape from something bad in our lives, but there is plenty of scientific evidence to prove it is a biological condition. The belief we have a mental condition is a basis for the discrimination from conservatives and Terfs, and is responsible for almost all of the relationship, family, and community breakups, and it is so frustrating for me to see the pain and tragedies from a basic lack of understanding.

 

Our brains are structurally different to cis people, and this creates dysphoria (despite many trans people not recognising it). Dysphoria makes us feel bad, and we eventually work out what to do to ease the bad feeling, but this is a reaction, like taking your hand away from a flame, not a 'want'. Unfortunately, most trans people express affirming actions as 'wants', and this gives the anti trans brigade fuel to oppress us.

 

So, we need to learn what is happening to us, and explain this to others, and in my experience, most people will see that we aren't choosing this life, and they can accept us. Re Trans in Sport, much research is currently underway, but early outcomes show that within the first 3 months of feminising hormones, our blood chemistry matches cis females, and this means we have reduced haemoglobin. This reduces the amount of oxygen available to our muscles to female levels, and if our muscle mass is still greater than cis females, it actually causes a disadvantage in muscle efficiency, and endurance. So the perceived advantage of bigger muscles is simply not there! The only advantage might be in activities with short term power needs, but any sustained activity will suffer.

 

Sport is all about individual advantage, and this is why people dominate. Michael Phelps had a medical condition where he didn't build lactic acid as rapidly as others, allowing him to go harder for longer, and dominate swimming. Was this fair? There has never been an elite trans sportsperson, and certainly not a dominant one as the fear that is being spread. Lia Thomas is often used as an example, but her only success came in a championship depleted of opposition due to covid, and her winning time was 9 seconds slower than the Olympic champion Katie Ledeky. Trans people have been taking hormones for more than 50 years, if they had any advantage, it would have been made obvious by now! The hysteria about trans in sport is pushed by mistruths from right wingers, and has no basis in fact. 

 

Hope some of this helps!

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

[Davie]

I had a good friend sympathetically say he was very impressed by my choice to be trans, that I was very brave to do that. I didn't, but I wish I'd said "It's not a choice! It is who I've always been. As a child the world did not allow me to speak my truth. Now I'm revealing the self I've always been. It's not a choice. You don't question your gender, and neither do I question mine. Not any longer. The world has changed for me." 

But just because he doesn't understand the whole thing, doesn't mean he's not my friend now. He'll learn it. People don't have to be perfect for me to love them—after all, I'm perfect and I don't love me at all. 💜 — Davie

[VickySGV]

I am looking at 3 book shelves and a computer file folder with over 100 professional scientific papers from qualified and reputable science sources on a dedicated hard drive for the computer I usually use.  Most of them have been read, and some will be re-read, but OMG they are technical, and while I have the background, they are slow reading even for me.

 

My favorite two authors that have books and individual papers that are readable are Julia Serano who totally rocks the social development of Trans and NB emergence into society as a whole began with a book titled Whipping Girl that explores both Trans and feminism as well as the debunking of a lot of myths about Trans folks, and Jennifer Finney Boylan who has some wonderful non-fiction, and a new book about Trans people in general which although fiction and opinion writings that are fun to read actually.  Boylan's newest book Mad Honey is top of the charts since it came out,her first book, She's Not There is in its second edition which I have a signed copy of.  A third author whom I also know IRL, Brynn Tannehill has a book entitled Everything You Wanted To Know About Trans, But Were Afraid To Ask  that takes a poke at the pseudo science so often thrown against us, and summarizes some of the legal perspectives we are up against.

 

I am throwing the idea of the books out, because in some of the ideas expressed so far, are near misses actually on both sides of things and those books have information that would help discussions stay friendly and caring.  Rowling is a subject I leave well enough alone.  I too know some people whom her books have helped deeply to which I respond to the person telling me about it that I am very happy for that person.  Those are my real feelings for a friend who benefited from them, since the tales do not go where their story teller is.  As for the sports, I recently had a real laugh session at a male whom I am not out to tell me piously about not having a "male" compete against his daughters, but another of his friends ruefully pointed out that a Trans man (female??) had badly outscored one of the guys sons a few months ago, and nothing was said them.  -- Darn this topic takes a lot of writing. 😄

[MaybeRob]

Is this now a separate topic? 

 

(while being relevant to @Vidanjali)

 

Hugs

 

MaybeRob

[VickySGV]

5 minutes ago, MaybeRob said:

Is this now a separate topic? 

Not sure what you are asking.  This is still the topic @Vidanjali started as far as its moderation history shows. 

[MaybeRob]

Sorry Vicki

 

I was trying to say "Gender in sport" is a topic on its own.

 

(my brain is a bit scrabbled at communicating my meanings sometimes)

 

hope that's a bit clearer

 

MaybeRob

[VickySGV]

@MaybeRobNow I get it, its OK to be here since the OP included it in their topic.  I answered a bit differently since I get the original issue is HOW to explain and talk about things to Friendly but not the best informed people we know.  It is fine to link the Sports topic into this one though if it seems helpful to @Vidanjali in your mind.  My post included printed reference sources that I think are helpful.

[Vidanjali]

12 hours ago, MaybeRob said:

I would give your friend some leeway but do explain what does bother you.

 

I was thinking deeply about this this morning. I was not honest with her when she asked if I was upset. I asked myself why. And why did I feel frozen in fight or flight during that conversation. I did not admit I was upset in that moment because I was occupied with calming my panic. I did not have words in that moment to explain how I felt or why. Also, it's very important to me to be responsible for my own feelings and reactions. Perhaps to a fault. I would never say "you upset me", but rather "something you said triggered an emotional reaction in me". But, before I speak I want to be introspective to gain insight into why I was triggered. By to a fault I mean that sometimes I beat myself up for my own emotional reactions to things. It's a struggle to find balance between being honest with myself and with others.

 

I truly believe that invalidating transwomen's experience and asserting they are a threat to ciswomen is invalidating to all trans people (and indeed all oppressed and nonnormative people). That disturbs me, but personally it made me feel that she doesn't see me as valid either. I don't "think" I'm not a woman; I essentially experience my embodied existence as something other than woman, even though I was born with female reproductive organs, etc. I'm not a woman who is empowered to be whatever she (sic) wants to be, for example. My biology does not largely dictate my behavior, nor does my mentation. My will to be authentic and integrated, and to wit, my willingness and exerted effort to surrender to inspiration (which I experience as spiritual) is what largely dictates my behavior. At least that is my heartfelt desire and something I'm near constantly aware of. I'd say the mental aspect of relation to my behavior entails deliberate discrimination over what's right, fair, just, appropriate, helpful, etc. None of this is to claim I'm perfect. Just that I concertedly endeavor to rise above whatever my base animal instincts due to biology may be. This is a generalization, but I assume that the trans population, consisting of individuals who have taken deep dives into discerning who they are, may tend to be more introspective and self-aware of their behavior than the general population. 

 

To preface what I'll say next, I do not approach relationships with a scorecard or tally sheet. Because I'm doing some deep thinking about my relationship to this friend, my perspective has changed a bit whether I wanted it to or not. As a friend, I feel honorbound too discuss how I feel with her. It won't be a discussion about sports or women's spaces, but I also feel honorbound as a trans ally to let her know that she however unwittingly ostracizes me when she invalidates transwomen. Things I know about this friend. Her husband left her because she was mean to him. She remains bitter towards him because he broke his vow to her, although admitting herself that she was mean and unappreciative. She is currently in an emotional affair with a married man. She is afraid to be alone. She has eschewed spirituality after a bad experience at one church. I met her in choir. She is fun, creative and companionable. She is expressly appreciative and admiring of me and our relationship. I am one of the few people in her life she completely trusts.

 

I think I dreaded the possibility that she's a TERF. I had the thought - you say all these things, but no, not you. Her assertions were passionately stressed and were not strictly about sports. Included in "women's spaces" she also referred to sororities, girl scouts, and scholarships, all of which she stridently asserted should exclude trans women and girls. 

 

I will tell her how I feel when I've organized my thoughts more and have calmed down emotionally. I will avoid debate with her. I will take the opportunity to state facts when I can do so diplomatically.

 

The baser part of me tells me other people are hell and to keep to myself. That's how I know I'm not ready to discuss with her - that's "biology" talking. 

 

One more deep thought on this. (I know I'm writing a book here.) The thought occurred to me that the opposite of passion is not dispassion, but disappointment. It's my own expectations of this friend that leave me feeling distressed. That's not fair to her. She is who she is, not who I want her to be. If I were to cultivate dispassion towards her, I would see nothing to forgive and no reason to be upset. I would only see a reflection of myself and a channel by which to practice compassion and mercy. Ultimately, this experience has shown me that I have so much further to go in my journey of self-acceptance. If I fundamentally see myself as valid, then I cannot be shaken. 

 

11 hours ago, AllieJ said:

Unfortunately, most trans people express affirming actions as 'wants', and this gives the anti trans brigade fuel to oppress us.

 

This is a fascinating insight. "Want" can certainly imply many things on myriad levels. It's a shame for h8ers to exploit semantics to their own design. This is why trans narratives are so powerful - they articulate experience in ways others will relate to but didn't have the words for. 

 

10 hours ago, VickySGV said:

Julia Serano

Jennifer Finney Boylan

Brynn Tannehill  

 

Thanks, Vicky. I have "Whipping Girl". I began to read it in the midst of reading half a dozen other books (which I tend to do). It was so compelling that I set it aside meaning to devote undivided attention to it once I finished other books. Now would be a good time to restart it.

 

I read Boylan's excellent memoir many years ago (when I had no clear understanding why I was so attracted to trans stories).

 

The Tannehill book is a great concept. I've often envisioned community forums of the "ask me anything" (appropriate) type so that the masses could learn about trans identity from actual trans folks. If only there were a safe way to do it. 

[VickySGV]

8 minutes ago, Vidanjali said:

I read Boylan's excellent memoir many years ago (when I had no clear understanding why I was so attracted to trans stories).

Get your friend to read the chapter in that one about Jenny's abandoned suicide mission, it will help ground your friend in how deep and how invasive GD can be in our lives.  I was in a seminar at a Trans Conference where Jenny read that episode to us in person, and it sent a feeling greater than mere factual statements could produce.

[Vidanjali]

Just now, VickySGV said:

Get your friend to read the chapter in that one about Jenny's abandoned suicide mission, it will help ground your friend in how deep and how invasive GD can be in our lives.  I was in a seminar at a Trans Conference where Jenny read that episode to us in person, and it sent a feeling greater than mere factual statements could produce.

 

Wow thank you. I read it so long ago. It would be edifying to reread it now, understanding so much more about myself. Then, recalling all the context I can consider sharing with my friend. Lotsa love, Vicky. 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

1 hour ago, Vidanjali said:

I think I dreaded the possibility that she's a TERF. I had the thought - you say all these things, but no, not you. Her assertions were passionately stressed and were not strictly about sports. Included in "women's spaces" she also referred to sororities, girl scouts, and scholarships, all of which she stridently asserted should exclude trans women and girls. 

 

 

 

One more deep thought on this. (I know I'm writing a book here.) The thought occurred to me that the opposite of passion is not dispassion, but disappointment. It's my own expectations of this friend that leave me feeling distressed. That's not fair to her. She is who she is, not who I want her to be. If I were to cultivate dispassion towards her, I would see nothing to forgive and no reason to be upset. I would only see a reflection of myself and a channel by which to practice compassion and mercy. Ultimately, this experience has shown me that I have so much further to go in my journey of self-acceptance. If I fundamentally see myself as valid, then I cannot be shaken.

 

Well, perhaps this friend's viewpoint sounds more entrenched now than it did in your first post.  Seems like it is beyond something intellectual and is a fervently-held belief.  Those things are harder to change.  I have noticed in general that most political and social views are fervent beliefs of this sort.  And I will sometimes hear the other side of an issue trying to "educate" and use facts in a debate.  Facts are a good thing, but when it comes to changing somebody's fervent belief, I think that facts and education or enlightenment don't work. Belief runs deeper and is usually the product of life experience, so it becomes a lens through which we interpret all other information.  Beliefs get challenged by other life experiences that don't match.

 

I think you owe it to yourself and her to describe your feelings when you are ready.  Your feelings are valid, and its good that you are exploring them now.  This is a moment of testing.  If your friend cares for you, she'll hear and acknowledge what you feel even if she doesn't agree.  If she doesn't, then she's not really a friend.  It sounds like she's got some emotional baggage that colors her world, and sometimes that makes people have a bitter spirit. 

 

I think your realization about expectations and disappointment is a good one.  It seems to me that's a big reason why many kinds of relationships fail, especially marriages.  We can't really expect to change somebody into what we want them to be, we can only live with them or relate to them for who they are.  We can only control ourselves, and that is challenge enough for a lifetime.  So, we get to choose if we can relate to somebody else well enough to be friends, and if we can't then we go our separate ways without condemnation. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Betty K]

Hi @Vidanjali. I have so many thoughts in response to your post I doubt I am going to get them all down. A few key ones though:

 

1. The bit about biology. One thing that annoys me in the conversation around trans people is the emphasis on appearance. So many cis people (and even some trans people) seem to think that transitioning is all about appearance. UK TERF Kathleen Stock calls it "wearing a skinsuit". That is what a trans woman is to her, a man in a skinsuit. And I suspect a large proportion of people probably agree. Which brings me to biology. Biology includes hormones. Hormones change behaviour. That should surely be obvious to anyone who has experienced a menstrual cycle, just as it should be obvious to any trans person on HRT. And these changes in behaviour can be dramatic. I am not only happier and more outgoing on estrogen, I'm less prone to angry outbursts (ie, I'm not prone to them at all), my sexuality operates differently, I get clucky over small children, I cry much more easily, I have dramatically more self-compassion, I have more compassion in general, etc etc. Add to that the fact that even without HRT I was never very masculine to begin with -- that most of my masculine traits were consciously learnt when I realised the other boys had sniffed me out as an imposter -- and I don't think anyone could credibly claim that because I am AMAB I am bound to act in a particular way.

 

2. The bit about women's spaces. Rather than trying to convince anyone that trans women are women (which leads to an unwinnable argument about gender metaphysics), I try to appeal to their compassion. To me, being welcomed by cis women into their spaces and confidence feels something like how I imagine it must feel for a refugee to be welcomed into a new country. I do not take it for granted. I am humbled and deeply touched. Having fled the world of men, I feel safe and at home among women. In return, I want to be the best ally I can be in our shared struggle. But just as some inhabitants of the countries in which refugees seek asylum are scared, some cis women are scared too. I would say to them, "These are people in need. They have nowhere else to go. Can you show compassion?" Of course you could also mention that rates of assault in women's toilets have not increased in any territory where self ID has been made law, but I doubt that would have the desired effect. Maybe this open letter from Irish feminists to a group of UK TERFs might tug the heartstrings (https://feministire.com/2018/01/22/an-open-letter-to-the-organisers-of-the-we-need-to-talk-tour-from-a-group-of-feminists-in-ireland/).

 

 

Quote

"We, the signatories of this letter, organise hand in hand with our trans sisters. Together, cis and trans, we are Irish feminism. Trans women are our sisters; their struggles are ours, our struggles theirs. They were our sisters before any state-issued certification said so and will always be no matter what any legislation says, either now or in the future." 

 

 

3. JK Rowling. I have heard from many people, including trans people, that the key message of Harry Potter was one of acceptance. That is part of the reason why so many in the trans community felt so betrayed when Rowling turned TERF. But I think it's a fairly shallow view of human behaviour that presumes a person can't profess a philosophy while acting in contradiction to it. In fact, I think authors frequently seek to "work out" aspects of their own personalities by "writing through" them. Who knows, maybe Rowling identified an unaccepting component to her personality and wrote in reaction to it. Or not. The point is, we can condemn the author without condemning the books. Mostly, I agree with Vicky, I try not to discuss JK Rowling. But if the topic does come up, here's a 30-minute video that might be helpful. It makes clear Rowling's direct links to some very unsavoury, right-wing and even anti-feminist organisations and people.

 

 

4. Feminism. I think it's fair to say that, for the most part, contemporary feminism embraces trans women in every western country except the UK. Or at least so it did until just recently. Maybe the onslaught of bad press has changed that? 

 

5. Trans women in sports. Omg I am so sick of hearing about this! How has the issue of women's sports become the default response from ignorant people whenever the subject of trans people comes up?! It's media brainwashing. Okay, so maybe it's a complex issue (I wouldn't know since I have very little interest in it), but it's surely far from the most important issue. It's just a source of easy outrage. There are trans people dying! I think whenever sport comes up in this context we should refuse to discuss it until more important issues are discussed. It's a distraction and a dog whistle.

 

6. Your friend. I think it's possible that these are not topics she has thought about much at all. She may not be an avowed transphobe, but just another reader of the wrong newspapers. I think one or two articles might do it, along with the general hubbub around trans issues these days. I've heard the same from cisgender normies regarding gender-affirming care for children. It breaks my heart. But I don't think they're necessarily bad people. I usually try suggesting different media outlets.

 

7. The Contrapoints video "Gender Critical" is informative and highly entertaining and has convinced at least one TERF-leaning cis woman of my knowledge to lean the other way and become a trans ally. I lol again with every viewing.

 

 

 

 

 

[Robin]

The feminists that feel threatened my men in women only spaces also demand to be allowed into men only spaces, where they apparently do not feel threatened.  They also have no problem with a woman participating in a male dominated activity, as long as she is as good, or better, at it than the men.

 

Robin.

[Davie]

Excellent and deep discussion. Thank you.

[Vidanjali]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, @Betty K. I enjoyed both videos and was not previously familiar with the content creators. Ironically, my friend is a veterinarian; that is, someone who is well-versed in animal biology. Certainly, animals are more likely to be enthralled by their biology as pertains to behavior (and when they are lovingly trained they can do amazing things!). As I mentioned previously, human behavior is related to biology to a certain extent, and which you, Betty, emphasized in particular with respect to hormones, but humans have access to a higher consciousness which empowers us potentially to behave in positively unexpected and unpredictable ways (and as we see with animals when they benefit from relationship with those who are compassionate and kind). Indeed, when we observe our own hormone-related behavior and are troubled by it, in the best case scenario we are motivated to seek a remedy. Ciswomen do this by having a doctor prescribe either bio-identical or synthetic hormones, or psychiatric drugs; or going after holistic remedies to quell symptoms of PMS, PMDD (premenstrual dysphoric disorder), perimenopause, menopause, postpartum mental illness, etc. I venture to say that is is similar with amab people who experience myriad dysphoric symptoms due to testosterone are aided by HRT. There is so much common ground my friend is balking. I really appreciate this conversation because it is giving me greater insight the more I think and converse about it. I just had the thought that the core of what alarmed me about my friend's might be her adamant shunning of the opportunity to practice compassion. The same friend who tells me often how much she admires me and finds me special because I've had so many different and unorthodox experiences.

 

My friend actually knows extremely little about transgender. I believe her knowledge is limited to what I've shared about myself, and an anecdote she told me that day about a "boy" (her word, actually a transgirl) who played on a team opposing her son's school's girls' basketball team who dominated the game. She talked about how she benefited from the sorority of which she was a member in college. For her, appearance seemed to make no difference. If I had been conversing with someone less emotional in their point of view, I would have pointed out that trans people are trans regardless of their appearance, and the pressure on transwomen to appear hyperfeminine for their own safety as the Contrapoints creator in the video pointed out. I felt I had to tread very carefully in that conversation due to my friend's emotionality. That is why I used a hypothetically 100% "passing" transwoman as an example. My motive was to try to find a way to appeal to her sense of compassion, and I wanted her to picture someone who "looks like her". But, she was unmoved. I tried to illumine the paradox that the feminist movement (in part) seeks to demolish the barrier which excludes women from the patriarchal world, yet there are those feminists who would adopt similarly exclusionary barriers against others who are also victims of the patriarchy (I believe that's the point you share, too, @Robin). 

 

To qualify further, the reason I was doing a bit of inventory-taking of my friend in one of my previous posts here was to glean some understanding of her capacity for willingness to challenge herself to consider greater depth of compassion. I, myself, am struggling now to challenge myself to not close myself off to her. She trusts me completely. She comes to me when she is in her most vulnerable states. I have talked her off the ledge, so to speak, on a few occasions. And I talk to her about my own challenges and how important it is to me to cultivate forgiveness, mercy, and understanding. She's watched me struggle in my relationship with my husband and admires his and my fortitude and commitment. This is not a statement of pride in the puffed up sense, but I believe I serve as a role model for her in certain ways. I value her trust in me and am humbled to be good association for her. I want to be an example of compassion and understanding for her. So, to wit, I want to be able to talk with her about these things without her becoming emotional and without me freezing. We have not talked since that day - she is usually quite busy during the week. I am pretty sure I am thinking about this way more than she is. 

 

Something which strikes me in particular as far as appearance goes is attachment to body. Here is what I mean by that. (Please note that these are my beliefs. It is not my intention to engage anyone in debate over them, nor do I intend to invalidate anyone else's beliefs by stating them. Especially as I have not posted this in a spirituality forum, I would like to invoke a no cross talk standard with respect to spiritual beliefs, if you please. If anyone would like to discuss this further, you are welcome to start a new thread in spirituality. I am including a discussion of my belief "I am not the body" because I believe it is relevant to this topic. Admins, please do intervene if this is out of line.) In my spiritual practice, one thing which is repeatedly emphasized is that I am not the body. Briefly, I believe that the essential me is invariable. That I (and everyone/thing else) am that which is primary to all qualities, experiencing this modified and limited particle of existence through this body-mind-ego-intellect complex. Deep contemplation on this brings comfort to my mind and heart in many ways. One way in which I find relief is from gender dysphoria. From a material point of view, I am a not-a-woman-not-a-man with a woman-shaped body, expressing not femininely, not compelled to use the body in any sexual manner. This is at odds with what's expected of an afab individual by their spouse, by their family, society, etc. I sometimes have pangs of finding myself ridiculous and repulsive - why am I so much at odds with this world. (Gosh, I used to vehemently hate myself - I didn't think I'd survive.) When I bring to mind that every single being is of the same source which is existence itself, which cannot help but be all-pervading and infinitely creative, and see myself as just one illusory expression of that whole, I succumb to a wave of relaxation - that this body-mind complex is not my own; it is an instrument in divine hands which creates, sustains, and dissolves everything. I do not have to force effort to accept my materiality, rather I must surrender to it knowing I am so much more and am lovingly supported.

 

All that said, my friend, as I mentioned, was turned off by an experience at a church she attended, and seems to have drawn the conclusion that spirituality is not for her. She is still very bitter and hurt by her ex-husband leaving her. He is now engaged. My friend is 51, and although quite good looking and very fit, becomes despairingly depressed about getting older and fearing men will no longer find her desirable. I console her however I can. I have struggled with my own body issues and continue to struggle with new ones. My marriage has endured, although it has not been easy. I have suffered tremendously from loneliness in my lifetime. Throughout it all, spiritual aspiration has buoyed me and given me strength to face challenges and find increasingly peaceful perspectives on things I've faced. At the moment, my friend seems very much identified with her body. I think that most people are. I think it seems intuitive that one would be, unless or until alternative perspectives are introduced, discovered and deeply ruminated upon. I am not disparaging anyone who is not spiritually inclined. However, when my friend's identification with body curtails her potential to experience deeper compassion for others whom she objectifies as bodies, I find myself puzzled at least. At worst, like the other day, in a bit of a panic. How do I cultivate greater compassion for her point of view which is limited to objectifying transwomen as "men's bodies"? I believe the key to my being able to talk with her about this in a peaceful manner is to better understand what is holding her back, which I believe is related to how she feels about herself.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

@Vidanjali I think spirituality vs non-spirituality is definitely relevant to the discussion.  It is a major, possibly the primary component of a person's worldview.  Pretty much every opinion a person holds can be traced back to their worldview. 

 

Most people who have faith in a higher power can agree with the statement, "This is not all that we are." So we can believe that our body is not the totality of being.  Personally,  I believe that the body I have in this life isn't right.  I will get a new one in the true life to come, that will really be what God intended for me.  That gives me hope.  I would probably feel differently if I believed that this life and body are all that there is, followed by death and nothingness. Perhaps that is the real tragedy of your friend's life - a lack of hope.  Perhaps that's a place to start?

[AllieJ]

@Vidanjali, As your friend is a Veterinarian, she would really appreciate watching this video (and everyone should watch it!) Sex and Sensibility 

as it explains so much of why we are all so different, and it would help her to understand gender variation.

 

Hugs,

 

Allie 

[Betty K]

@Vidanjali I don’t know if this would help your friend feel compassion, but I am 49 and similarly worried that I will never find a man to fall in love with. The main difference between me and your friend is that when I was about 11, in 1984/85, I decided I could never reveal the truth about my gender to anyone and I repressed it entirely for roughly 30 years, along with my sexuality. Consequently I now find myself late middle-aged, having never had more than casual sex with men, and stigmatised not only for my age but for my gender by the mostly heterosexual men who are attracted to me. Imagine you had gone to sleep at age 11 and woken at age 47 to find another person had been living your life. That is how I sometimes feel. I agree that we are not our bodies, and I hope to attain that level of spiritual enlightenment that you speak of someday, but tbh I feel I have barely had a chance to enjoy my body yet! 
 

I wonder if your friend and I might have more in common than she could imagine.

[Betty K]

Oh, but I also wanted to say we do not have to understand people to feel compassion for them. I’m sure you know that, but maybe your friend doesn’t?

[Charlize]

5 hours ago, Betty K said:

we do not have to understand people to feel compassion for them

This is quite true!  There are many folks who have experienced lives i could never understand fully but i can feel for them or despise their differences.

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

[Vidanjali]

Minor update. Today I had a brief chat with this friend on the phone. During our conversation she told me a heartwarming story about how her son and one other boy from his highschool wound up with the top grade in an advanced honors class. The other boy is a trans boy. She pointed out to her son that he used to play with this boy when he was younger but knew him as (deadname). Her son was impressed by his academic prowess and expressed he'd like to get to know this boy better. This gave me some hope as my friend has ostensibly been supportive of me, and was proud and respectful when referring to her son's trans classmate. It's just the blindspot about transwomen that really disturbs me. I took the opportunity for a brief segue. I thanked her for sharing the story and told her it was indeed heartwarming. I added, related to that, we were talking about the Barbie movie that day at the beach. I told her, I wanted to have a more indepth conversation about it at another time, but brought to her attention that a transwoman actress played one of the Barbies. For context, my friend had seen the movie (I have not seen it yet), was telling me about it, and noted she found low-key LGBTQ representation in the movie via the character "Weird Barbie" played by Kate McKinnon who is a lesbian. I later learned that the fabulous Hari Nef plays a Barbie in the movie. Hari is trans. Because my friend had only mentioned representation of McKinnon, I figured my friend, who was so adamant about trans exclusion from "women's spaces", and who continually referred to transwomen as men, had not clocked Hari. I also figured she'd be surprised by this and hoped it would make her think. In response to my telling her about a trans actress portraying a Barbie, she was taken aback and asked which Barbie. There was a note in her voice which made me think she was prepared to tell me something like "oh I could see that". I told her she was Doctor Barbie. My friend thought and said, oh I had no idea. I concluded, trans people are all around whether we realize it or not. I let it sink in. There was an awkward beat, which didn't bother me. Then we finished up the call wishing each other a good week, etc. I felt good about possibly planting a seed that transwomen are not whatever she thinks they are. I'll have the more indepth conversation whenever it is I next see her. 

[Davie]

Yes. It takes a train to learn sometimes. A good friend of mine who is very supportive of me said recently that being trans is "a tough choice." The conversation ended quickly so I didn't have a chance to say: "It's NOT a choice." But the learning curve is even long for me sometimes. Sometimes acceptance and support is enough without full understanding.