Biological Woman/Man

[emeraldmountain2]

What are people's opinions on the phrases "not a biological woman" or "not a biological man" to describe a transgender person? My therapist called me this and it hurt. I think it is an outdated, unscientific, exclusionary term used by dated people, ignorant people, haters, and/or TERF's. I view the proper and contemporary term to be cis or cisgender.

[Vidanjali]

37 minutes ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

I think it is an outdated, unscientific, exclusionary term used by dated people, ignorant people, haters, and/or TERF's. I view the proper and contemporary term to be cis or cisgender.

 

That is what I think too. "Woman" and "man" are social constructs which vary according to historical setting, nation, culture, religion, etc. Variables such as genitals; internal reproductive organs; chromosomes; hormones; physical characteristics such as breasts, flat chest, delicate face, angled face, body or facial hair, etc.; clothing, toy, accessory, job, hair, companion, vehicle, hobby, etc. preference; personality traits; physical mannerisms; and experience of gender; etc. are such a mixed bag that you cannot reasonable determine which characteristics exclusively go with "woman" and which go with "man". I would venture to say that only a very tiny percentage of people would wind up fitting perfectly into what some given culture at some given time would define as man or woman. Nature is naturally diverse. And most people are working with elementary school sex ed knowledge. There's no such thing as biological man or woman. In my opinion, there's no proper way to even say that sort of thing; it just needs to be discarded. 

 

It's an issue I have with a friend who demonstrated TERF behavior now a few months ago. I still have not had a chance to speak with her about it. She vehemently claimed, while referring to transwomen and girls as men and boys, that "biology determines behavior". This, in the context of insisting that transwomen and girls must be excluded from "women's spaces". She was so angry and I was so triggered at the time, I could not retort. It would not have done any good in the moment anyway because she was emotional and irrational. She is a trained scientist. Nonetheless, "biology determines behavior" is complete ignorance and negates oh so many variables about a person. Similarly, to say someone is "not a biological woman" is ignorant. It's like saying "not a nutritious spaceship"; just plain illogical, a non sequitur.

[KathyLauren]

My main objection to the phrase is that biology refers to more than genitals.  Gender identity, in particular, is biologically determined, in a specific part of the brain.  I have no problem in claiming that my gender identity is biological.

 

The "biologically male / female" terms referring to genitals mean what a field biologist can see with binoculars when studying a herd of wildebeest (or whatever species).  They are not relevant to gender identity, and were never intended to be.

[KathyLauren]

@emeraldmountain, I think you need a new therapist.

[emeraldmountain2]

Thank you both @Vidanjali and @KathyLauren and I agree with you both. Also, "biology determines behavior" is so old school and anti-feminist. Surprising since this person you're talking about is a scientist. Of course, biology has some effect on behavior, but it's incredibly incorrect to make such a blanket statement. I think you are right @KathyLaurenabout the therapist.

 

[Audrey]

Just reading the phrases "biological man" or "biological woman" makes me cringe and is instantly invalidating! I would agree, this is insensitive language and a therapist should know better. If it is necessary to refer to the sex assigned at birth, perhaps for valid medical reasons, that is much better language. Otherwise, as @KathyLauren said, we are talking about a social construct where words of identity and expression are consciously chosen by someone. Quite simply, I am a woman. No qualifying adjective necessary! You choose the words that feels right for you, and others should echo that back to you. Perhaps the words might change in the future, and that is okay too!

 

Love,

~Audrey.

[AllieJ]

Used by people who simply do not understand the terms! Seriously, watch this video! 

 

 

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

[emeraldmountain2]

Calling a trans person "not a biological woman" is practically the same as calling a trans woman "not a real woman."

 

Thanks for the video @AllieJ.

[MaeBe]

It's an inherently transphobic utterance, coming from either willful or unconscious bias. Based on this thread and others I've seen you post, it's time to stop all payments and off their schedule. That person is not worth your time, never mind your money.

[emeraldmountain2]

Thank you @MaeBe. I've decided to find a new therapist.

[MaeBe]

4 minutes ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

Thank you @MaeBe. I've decided to find a new therapist.

I hope you find one that is good for you...and just good.

[emeraldmountain2]

Thank you @MaeBe

[MaeBe]

2 hours ago, AllieJ said:

Used by people who simply do not understand the terms! Seriously, watch this video! 

 

 

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

Is it weird that I started to tear up when we got to the citation scroll?

[AllieJ]

2 minutes ago, MaeBe said:

Is it weird that I started to tear up when we got to the citation scroll?

 

No, this video shows that different is more normal than we thought. The more we learn the less black and white this world becomes.

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

[awkward-yet-sweet]

Like a lot of things, I suspect the usefulness, accuracy, and reaction to the phrase depends on who is saying it and why. 

 

I have no problem accepting the demonstrable fact that I'm not a "biological" male.  Pretty clear from my anatomy and bone structure.  Same with my MtF trans friends...they're not "biological" women.  Send our DNA samples to a lab and mine will show 46XX and theirs will show XY.  At this time, there's no way to change that.  That's part of what we live with

 

Now, who in my life is likely to be pointing out something about my biological characteristics?  I talk about it with my friends a bit, but we don't really use that phrase with each other.  And my partners don't.  Which mostly leaves people who aren't being tactful or polite.  I don't need to be "reminded" because its not something I'm likely to forget.  If a therapist brought something like that up, I would question what they're thinking and why they believe it is relevant to the discussion.  I would be asking some pointed questions. 

 

Remember - with doctors and therapists, you're the paying customer.  And the customer is always right.  If you're not getting what you need or you're feeling uncomfortable, get somebody else. 

[Birdie]

11 hours ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

What are people's opinions on the phrases "not a biological woman" or "not a biological man" to describe a transgender person?

Well, physically I'm a bit of both (intersex). My chromosomes are XY, but I have PMDS so I developed a uterus, fallopian tubes, and no penis. 

 

My doctor sees the chromosomes and says, "you were correctly gendered at birth". 

So basically calling me a 'biological male' with large breasts, woman's bone structure, very curvy, and a womb. 

 

Those that can't accept that our 'persona' is so much more than our medical records. 

1/1500 children are born intersex. Their chromosomes will be from XX to XY and even XXY, but means very little in how they actually developed.

 

The 'persona' behind the individual is who we are placing chromosomes, development, and medical records aside. 

[Heather Shay]

.It is biology but it is natures error not yours. I would push to remove the "biological woman" and replace with just woman.

[Timi]

6 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

... I don't need to be "reminded" because its not something I'm likely to forget. ....

YES!!! 

 

I'm trying to grapple with a conversation a very dear and supportive cis woman had earlier this week where she felt it necessary to "educate" my on what natal cis women experience in this world, as I if I had never thought about it and was drifting in some sort of pink cotton candy fantasy. 

 

It just hit home to me days later that she just doesn't know or can't imagine what it's like to be me. That I've thought of my unwanted dilemma from every angle possible for every day of my life, including those long stretches of life where my sustaining practices were denial, avoidance, conformance, and when all else failed, some sort of mind-numbing substance use or abuse. 

 

Sorry for the overflow of words and emotions. What you wrote. Yes. I don't need to be "reminded" either. 

 

Thank you @awkward-yet-sweet

 

-Timi

[emeraldmountain2]

16 minutes ago, Timi said:

she felt it necessary to "educate" my on what natal cis women experience in this world, as I if I had never thought about it and was drifting in some sort of pink cotton candy fantasy. 

 

It just hit home to me days later that she just doesn't know or can't imagine what it's like to be me.

Exactly. Seems a common theme. Cis people just have so much difficulty wrapping their heads around how all-consuming gender dysphoria can be and how it affects practically every aspect of our lives.

[Timi]

15 hours ago, AllieJ said:

Used by people who simply do not understand the terms! Seriously, watch this video! 

 

 

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

Thank you so much for sharing this, Allie!

 

My favorite quote:

"People are under no obligation to make sense to you."

 

@MaeBe I started to tear up when he said that these poor kids are being treated like perverts and freaks just because they're trying to exist. 

 

-Timi

[Charlize]

12 hours ago, AllieJ said:

No, this video shows that different is more normal than we thought. The more we learn the less black and white this world becomes.

 

I've come to the conclusion that normal is a concept best left as a control on the washing machine.  It seemingly rarely truly exists in this world.  

I do my best to simply let the fact that i wasn't born with a woman's body simply slide away.  I am what i am and accept it.  My wife once complained that i had never had a period or given birth.  I looked cat her with a smile and mentioned how cute and perky my breasts were in my 70's.   I don't have to be biological to be real.

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

[KatieSC]

It is sad that some folks are so incapable of distinguishing the broader range of life. Not everything is easily divided into either or propositions. While the concept of xx and xy as determinates of biological sexual differences, reality clearly shows that there are many variations on a theme. If I had a therapist that tried to denigrate me with saying I am not a biologic woman, I would simply not go to them.

 

The fact that we exist, is proof that this is just not a fetish. There are too many of us with similar thoughts, and experiences to chalk up being transgender as a conscious choice. As much as genitalia can be deemed intersex, what is to say that as an organ, the brain can be intersex just as much as genitalia. 

 

I have met many Christians over the years that will talk about how the body is just a shell at death, and how the soul goes to heaven. If the concept of a soul is true, and our bodies truly are just a shell or vessel, it is quite possible that a female soul was tucked into a male appearing body. Of course, when I have mentioned this to some of these same Christians, they will frequently say that this just could not happen as God does not make mistakes. My reply to that is to say, perhaps you are right, and yes, I am sure God intended me to be transgender. Then I see that reddening face.

 

I am not sure what can get these folks to give up the opposition and hate. The only thing I have found is to just be the best person I can be, control what I can control, and show them the real me. So far, it has been working. I do not tell a soul that I am transgender. Many of the people I know in everyday life in a conservative town know that I am, however, over a two year period, it has never been an issue. After a while, nobody says anything. Now, it is a non-event where I work and live. 

 

Make no mistake, in many parts of the country and world, there is a significant amount of hate, and risk. I still think that the tide will turn back, but it is going to be a struggle. 

[emeraldmountain2]

1 hour ago, KatieSC said:

If I had a therapist that tried to denigrate me with saying I am not a biologic woman, I would simply not go to them.

I'm not sure if the therapist was intentionally denigrating me, but it still hurt and they should know better.

 

1 hour ago, KatieSC said:

As much as genitalia can be deemed intersex, what is to say that as an organ, the brain can be intersex just as much as genitalia. 

This is an explanation I have used with an evangelical Christian and it seemed to help them understand trans people.

[Vidanjali]

23 hours ago, AllieJ said:

Used by people who simply do not understand the terms! Seriously, watch this video! 

 

 

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

 

I finally watched this video and it is EXCELLENT. Thanks so much for sharing. This guy is a hero. 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

9 hours ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

I'm not sure if the therapist was intentionally denigrating me, but it still hurt and they should know better.

 

This is an explanation I have used with an evangelical Christian and it seemed to help them understand trans people.

 

Kind of hard to understand the therapist's reasoning (if there was any.)  Denigration?  I'd kind of doubt it.  Insensitivity?  Yep.  Not knowing the right words?  Probably.  But whatever the reason, it isn't helping you...and getting help is kind of the reason for therapy.  There's better options out there for you, and you deserve better than what you've received.  💔

 

11 hours ago, KatieSC said:

As much as genitalia can be deemed intersex, what is to say that as an organ, the brain can be intersex just as much as genitalia. 

 

I have met many Christians over the years that will talk about how the body is just a shell at death, and how the soul goes to heaven. If the concept of a soul is true, and our bodies truly are just a shell or vessel, it is quite possible that a female soul was tucked into a male appearing body. Of course, when I have mentioned this to some of these same Christians, they will frequently say that this just could not happen as God does not make mistakes.

 

Interesting thoughts.  As an intersex person, the idea of an intersex brain is kind of intriguing! 

 

I have wondered about the soul issue as well, whether a soul has sex or gender.  I just figure that when I get to heaven, I'll be whatever I was supposed to be without all the complications.  The idea that "God doesn't make a mistake" that some Christians make shows ignorance of the theological concept of original sin and a fallen world.  Which is an adjunct of the question "Why do bad things happen to us?"  The end result is that God's sovereignty somehow makes Him responsible for everything, even the bad stuff....like disease, divorce, war, nuclear weapons, etc.  From my perspective, Christians who believe that sort of thing are being rather unfair to God. We could probably have a good thread on the topic in the Christianity subforum 🙃