Would a Cis Man Feel Horrible on HRT?

[emeraldmountain2]

Is it true what they say, which is that a cis man on feminizing HRT would feel horrible and that if you don't feel horrible on feminizing HRT it means you're trans (or at least a good sign that you are trans/nonbinary)?

[VickySGV]

Feel TERRIBLE?? -- Probably not terrible, but they would get no benefits from it.  If the person is forced to take the E for other therapeutic reasons (delay of prostate tumor development) then they would certainly have a stress level higher than Mt. Everest, but since all humans do have a supply of each sex hormone it could even be that it would simply be excreted out of the body with no long term effect based on the individual body.  In some cases, yes, HRT is considered a diagnostic tool for assessing GD but it is not conclusive in any study I have seen yet.  Anecdotally, one famous musician with terrible Dysphoria was given Premarin as a "last resort" by her physician who did not tell her it was an E pill and even though it helped her GD immensely, she was angry with the doctor for not telling her what it was. This is why we tell people here that HRT is a fully individual course of medical treatment for each person. 

[MaeBe]

So are you feeling horrible or feeling horrible about NOT feeling horrible?

 

I've been on E for a month and haven't felt a negative thing, except MAYBE some minor fatigue the day or so before my next shot. I haven't heard of the stress Vicky refers to. There could be some psychosomatic reactions out there, "I'm on hormones and I feel great!" because they're doing something that aligns with their gender identity.

 

I found this video about a person with prostate cancer on hormones and he states he feels what (IMO) anyone would feel on Estrogen: heightened emotions (crying), breast development, etc.

 

[emeraldmountain2]

Thanks @VickySGV and @MaeBe. You always have such helpful comments.

 

19 minutes ago, VickySGV said:

Anecdotally, one famous musician with terrible Dysphoria was given Premarin as a "last resort" by her physician who did not tell her it was an E pill and even though it helped her GD immensely, she was angry with the doctor for not telling her what it was.

 

This is very interesting, but I don't blame her for being angry.

 

19 minutes ago, VickySGV said:

In some cases, yes, HRT is considered a diagnostic tool for assessing GD but it is not conclusive in any study I have seen yet. 

 

Yes, this is what I'm aiming at here for my own self-assessment.

 

9 minutes ago, MaeBe said:

So are you feeling horrible or feeling horrible about NOT feeling horrible?

 

I feel great on HRT, physically and mentally. I do get stuck on whether or not it's the HRT or the psych meds that are making me feel better, but I suspect it's both. The uncertainty I deal with and the seemingly gender fluidity I have, as well as the OCD, make it difficult for me to parse my feelings, unfortunately.

[emeraldmountain2]

@MaeBe Also, thanks for the video. It was an interesting perspective.

[Ashley0616]

They would have to prove that they first need HRT. It's not like it's on the Walmart shelf. Unless of course they go through the black market. 

[Vidanjali]

I once met a cis guy who was caring for his disabled mother. He applied her topical E cream for her and eventually began to develop gynecomastia. It never occurred to him that as he was using his hand to apply it, he was getting dosed too. He didn't feel horrible and in fact didn't realize he was getting E until he noticed the change in his body. After that he wore a glove when applying the cream. Since the change to his body was in a very early stage, it eventually reversed. 

[emeraldmountain2]

8 minutes ago, Vidanjali said:

I once met a cis guy who was caring for his disabled mother. He applied her topical E cream for her and eventually began to develop gynecomastia. It never occurred to him that as he was using his hand to apply it, he was getting dosed too. He didn't feel horrible and in fact didn't realize he was getting E until he noticed the change in his body. After that he wore a glove when applying the cream. Since the change to his body was in a very early stage, it eventually reversed. 

Interesting, thank you.

[Betty K]

1 hour ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

Yes, this is what I'm aiming at here for my own self-assessment.

I would be very careful about trying to self-assess in this way. HRT, in the early stage, can be a rollercoaster. For me it took well over a year to crack the code and find the respective doses, medications, and delivery methods of estradiol and t-blocker that worked best to maintain both optimal levels and emotional well-being. I understand it is similar for many other trans folk too; I have heard it referred to as a “science experiment”. True, I felt a rush of well-being in the early stages of estradiol therapy, but once I introduced blockers that became hopelessly muddled for a while. Also, adjusting to the heightened emotions brought on by estradiol can be challenging. In my case, this coincided with the release of repressed emotions around gender in general that I had held onto for decades. It’s complicated.

[emeraldmountain2]

16 minutes ago, Betty K said:

It’s complicated.

You can say that again. I haven't had the rollercoaster emotional experience that other people describe, but I wouldn't be surprised if that occurs or if it is blunted by the meds I'm on. Overall, I feel pretty good compared to the "before times."

[MaeBe]

3 hours ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

I feel great on HRT, physically and mentally. I do get stuck on whether or not it's the HRT or the psych meds that are making me feel better, but I suspect it's both.

Someone wise once said, "don't mess with a good thing."

 

In the end, one or both, who cares: you feel great both mentally and physically! How great is that?!

 

Your recent questionings of things leads me to believe you're really fighting an internal struggle that is being fought around the idea that you're are (likely) not a (traditional) male anymore. So what? Does your life whither into nothingness by acquiescing to a part of your psyche that is feminine? No. Does the black windowless van pull up, full of suited and bespectacled men, who forcibly revoke from you some mystical man card? Unlikely (for now 🤞😁). Focus on what you actually want, not what is easy, not what you think society will allow for you, not what your coworkers will think, and resolve to allow yourself that. The rest you can surmount as you go. It's fine if you are cis, or transfemme, or non-binary, or something that has not yet been defined. You are you, do the things that make you feel you and damn the torpedoes!

 

I know it's easy for me to write these things and sometimes I need to take my own medicine, but I hate to see you struggle when you say you find fulfillment, joy, and are "feeling great" being beyond the binary. That is so amazing. I hope you can see how amazing it is.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

No responsible person should take something like HRT if they don't need it, and I doubt responsible doctors would prescribe it.  "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a pretty good rule for life.  I was offered various hormone treatments by my doctor, and I chose a minimal prescription for a localized effect rather than anything more.  My decision was partly based on the aforementioned life rule - I figured I might stand to lose more than I would gain. 

[Betty K]

2 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

No responsible person should take something like HRT if they don't need it, and I doubt responsible doctors would prescribe it. “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” is a pretty good rule for life.

This kind of touches on the discussion we’ve have been having elsewhere about gender euphoria. If someone is following their sense of euphoria, if they believe HRT will make them happier and more fulfilled, then I don’t think it’s irresponsible of them to act on that belief, or for a doctor to prescribe them HRT. I also question what “need” really means in this context. There are those of us who lived in the closet for several decades and survived. Could we have benefited from receiving HRT at a much younger age? Almost certainly. But clearly we did not strictly “need” it or we would not still be alive.

 

Also, imho, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” is a terrible rule for life. As a philosophy it is conservative, anti-progress, and anti-innovation. 

[Mirrabooka]

10 hours ago, VickySGV said:

Feel TERRIBLE?? -- Probably not terrible, but they would get no benefits from it.  If the person is forced to take the E for other therapeutic reasons (delay of prostate tumor development) then they would certainly have a stress level higher than Mt. Everest,

Not necessarily so! If they are stressed, it could be from not the hormone treatment, but from dealing with the cancer itself. Or any other reason! Also, regarding cis men, what @Vidanjali said!

 

9 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

I once met a cis guy who was caring for his disabled mother. He applied her topical E cream for her and eventually began to develop gynecomastia. It never occurred to him that as he was using his hand to apply it, he was getting dosed too. He didn't feel horrible and in fact didn't realize he was getting E until he noticed the change in his body.

 

 

Also, regarding this...

10 hours ago, MaeBe said:

I found this video about a person with prostate cancer on hormones and he states he feels what (IMO) anyone would feel on Estrogen: heightened emotions (crying), breast development, etc.

 

...I've seen that video before, as part of my research into ADT (HRT) to treat certain stages of prostate cancer. There is NO suggestion that the man in the video is taking estrogen! In all likelihood, his 12-weekly shot is Lupron (an LHRH agonist) and its wide-ranging side effects include hot flashes, all sorts of cognitive issues (mood swings, depression, indecision, memory loss), physical issues (weight gain, loss of muscle mass, osteoporosis, body fat redistribution) and sexual health issues (loss of libido, erectile dysfunction, genital atrophy). Gynecomastia is only 15% likely!

 

The poor chap must be pretty well down the path to be also on a daily tablet, in all likelihood, the anti-androgen Casodex. This treatment regime is known as Combined Androgen Blockade. It is the Casodex that will have given him gynecomastia. By itself, around 85% likely. Interestingly, by being on the combined regimen, his chance of gynecomastia is actually a bit higher than the average of those two figures, not the sum of them.

[Mirrabooka]

@VickySGV to clarify what I just said above in reply to you - having cancer itself is not necessarily stressful either, believe it or not. Having cancer is not an automatic trigger for stress, neither is taking hormones, neither is anything else...but anything could be.

[MaeBe]

3 hours ago, Mirrabooka said:

There is NO suggestion that the man in the video is taking estrogen!

Fair enough.

[Birdie]

On another site dealing with gynecomastia there are many individuals that feel quite distressed with the changes that are happening to them, others learn to accept it and even embrace the changes. These changes are 'estrogen dominance fueled'. 

 

Would giving HRT unwillingly to a person be much different?

 

I believe it depends on the individual. 

[Vidanjali]

12 hours ago, Betty K said:

This kind of touches on the discussion we’ve have been having elsewhere about gender euphoria. If someone is following their sense of euphoria, if they believe HRT will make them happier and more fulfilled, then I don’t think it’s irresponsible of them to act on that belief, or for a doctor to prescribe them HRT. I also question what “need” really means in this context. There are those of us who lived in the closet for several decades and survived. Could we have benefited from receiving HRT at a much younger age? Almost certainly. But clearly we did not strictly “need” it or we would not still be alive.

 

Also, imho, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” is a terrible rule for life. As a philosophy it is conservative, anti-progress, and anti-innovation. 

 

Agreed. While it's at time necessary for survival to adopt this view, as a fixed mindset it's at best complacent. I would also add unimaginative. Many times you don't realize something was broke until you move beyond it.

 

21 hours ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

Is it true what they say, which is that a cis man on feminizing HRT would feel horrible...

 

Should we interpret "horrible" as a general feeling?

 

9 minutes ago, Birdie said:

On another site dealing with gynecomastia there are many individuals that feel quite distressed with the changes that are happening to them...

 

Or related to self concept with respect to specific effects of estrogen such as gynecomastia?

 

In other words, is there a difference between E itself making you feel horrible versus feeling horrible about the manifested effects of E? If I try to think of analogous examples, I suppose it ultimately makes no difference. Say a trans man took T which made him feel more masculine, but caused hair loss which made him feel less attractive. (That's hypothetical and not a personal judgement on individuals with hair loss, btw.) But compare an antidepressant which effectively elevates the mood but causes intolerable side effects versus one that results in worse depression. There's subjective horribleness one way or another. 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

15 hours ago, Betty K said:

This kind of touches on the discussion we’ve have been having elsewhere about gender euphoria. If someone is following their sense of euphoria, if they believe HRT will make them happier and more fulfilled, then I don’t think it’s irresponsible of them to act on that belief, or for a doctor to prescribe them HRT. I also question what “need” really means in this context. There are those of us who lived in the closet for several decades and survived. Could we have benefited from receiving HRT at a much younger age? Almost certainly. But clearly we did not strictly “need” it or we would not still be alive.

 

Also, imho, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” is a terrible rule for life. As a philosophy it is conservative, anti-progress, and anti-innovation. 

 

While there are limits to every axiom, I definitely do not believe that being conservative or cautious is a bad thing.  And not all things described as progress or innovation are necessarily good or useful.  What we possess is not necessarily worse or of lower quality than some potential in the future.  But a lot of these things come down to how you see the world, and how you see concepts such as Creation, health, need vs. want, etc...  It also relates to how you see science - both as process and product.  Is it 100% trustworthy, or are there issues? 

 

As you might have gathered by now, my worldview involves an intentional God who created me (or at least the building blocks that made me) according to a design.  There's a pattern for health that Science can explain at times, but not fully.  I believe that caution and conservatism are virtues, and hubris a vice...especially when modifying something complex like a human body. 

 

While I disagree with much of the medical gatekeeping that has been going on in recent decades, I wonder how positive things might be for a normal and healthy person taking HRT to experience euphoria (or as you put it, enhancing pre-existing euphoria).  To me, that seems like similar language used in the debate about non-medical use of drugs.  While feeling good is usually a good thing, is using heroin or marijuana specifically for the feeling (users describe it as euphoria, actually) necessarily a good thing?  Even if legal issues were irrelevant, do we believe chemically modifying an otherwise "normal" human being temporarily (or even permanently) is progress?  I don't claim to have answers to that thought, just questions. 

 

From what I've observed of medicine in the USA, there are two basic approaches.  The lack-based approach is predominant.  You have something that isn't working right and needs to be corrected.  The prevention-based approach addresses overall health, adding supplements and focusing on keeping the body working according to the pattern that God (or Nature, depending on your beliefs) intended.  Neither approach describes the situation of giving an otherwise healthy Cisgender male HRT, so what should doctors actually do?  A long-held medical principle is, "It may be better not to do something, or even to do nothing, than to do more harm than good." 

 

Ultimately, I believe that treating transgender people is naturally and necessarily lack-based, even though that can cause some political issues these days.  

[Betty K]

3 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Neither approach describes the situation of giving an otherwise healthy Cisgender male HRT, so what should doctors actually do?

I agree no-one should be giving a cis male feminising hormones, but that’s not what I was advocating. You made a generalisation about how no-one should take HRT if they don’t “need” it and I was responding to that. That is the philosophy that basically advocates leaving trans folks until they are suicidal before prescribing them hormones, because until then they do not strictly need them. The opposite philosophy, of paying attention to their strong desire to transition based on euphoria, is nothing like encouraging the hedonistic pleasure-seeking of recreational drug taking. It’s “prevention” in a nutshell. 

 

9 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

And not all things described as progress or innovation are necessarily good or useful.

Criticising a philosophy for being anti-progress and anti-innovation is not the same as saying that all things described as progress or innovation are good or useful.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

8 minutes ago, Betty K said:

I agree no-one should be giving a cis male feminising hormones, but that’s not what I was advocating. You made a generalisation about how no-one should take HRT if they don’t “need” it and I was responding to that.

 

Well, then perhaps we misunderstood each other. 

 

I believe HRT ought to be taken for needs only.  However, who is the person who determines what is a need?  Right now, the systems of many nations would say its the doctor (or the government) who makes that decision.  I prefer to say the decision lies with the person experiencing the need.  You will notice that in my case, I was offered hormone treatments and I declined.  I cautiously chose for myself what I needed and made a determination about what I didn't need.  The problem with any other approach to "need" besides personal choice is gatekeeping, like we've been seeing.  Of course, that's the very nature of government...to redefine need and limit your medicine, food, fuel, education, personal property, rights, etc. 

 

Given the original topic of this thread - the hypothetical situation of a "normal" cisgender male taking HRT, apparently without experiencing discomfort or dysphoria...why would he think that he needs it?  "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" tends to apply, if for no other purpose than as wise advice to a patient before they make their own choice, whatever that choice ultimately might be.

[Betty K]

42 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I prefer to say the decision lies with the person experiencing the need. 

Practically, we are advocating for the same thing then. If someone — in full possession of their faculties and with knowledge of the potential side effects — wants to access HRT then, in general, I believe they should be able to do so. I find it hard to imagine many people would take that choice lightly, especially given the societal stigma around it. The word “need”, once divorced from actual life and death, is entirely relative, as I suggested above. How much does a person, who is not in immediate danger of death, need HRT? How long is a piece of string? 
 

46 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" tends to apply

That’s fine in the context of this thread. I was just saying that as a “rule for life” it is severely lacking, imho.

[Betty K]

1 hour ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I cautiously chose for myself what I needed and made a determination about what I didn't need.

I cautiously chose not to transition or access hormone therapy too, in 2012. I did not even get to the point of discussing the issue with a medical professional, since I reasoned that I did not strictly *need* to transition, that I could survive without doing so. And I was right: I’m still alive. But how I regret that decision. 

[emeraldmountain2]

22 hours ago, MaeBe said:

Someone wise once said, "don't mess with a good thing."

 

In the end, one or both, who cares: you feel great both mentally and physically! How great is that?!

 

Your recent questionings of things leads me to believe you're really fighting an internal struggle that is being fought around the idea that you're are (likely) not a (traditional) male anymore. So what? Does your life whither into nothingness by acquiescing to a part of your psyche that is feminine? No. Does the black windowless van pull up, full of suited and bespectacled men, who forcibly revoke from you some mystical man card? Unlikely (for now 🤞😁). Focus on what you actually want, not what is easy, not what you think society will allow for you, not what your coworkers will think, and resolve to allow yourself that. The rest you can surmount as you go. It's fine if you are cis, or transfemme, or non-binary, or something that has not yet been defined. You are you, do the things that make you feel you and damn the torpedoes!

 

I know it's easy for me to write these things and sometimes I need to take my own medicine, but I hate to see you struggle when you say you find fulfillment, joy, and are "feeling great" being beyond the binary. That is so amazing. I hope you can see how amazing it is.

Thank you @MaeBe. You are always so kind and you write so well.

[emeraldmountain2]

32 minutes ago, Betty K said:

I cautiously chose not to transition or access hormone therapy too, in 2012. I did not even get to the point of discussing the issue with a medical professional, since I reasoned that I did not strictly *need* to transition, that I could survive without doing so. And I was right: I’m still alive. But how I regret that decision. 

I was similar, in that I was so cautious, unsure, and agonized so much that I froze in place for years, which I also deeply regret. Despite my current doubts, I think I really did need HRT way back when and being overly cautious was no bueno.