Catholic and transgender and what to do about it all...

[EasyE]

Let me start by saying I LOVE the Catholic Church, so I am not here to bash anything Catholic (or any religion for that matter). I was a Protestant my whole life, discovered Catholicism in 2019 and have been "smitten" ever since. I love the deep and rich theology. I love the sacraments. I love the liturgy. I love how the church can trace its roots all the way back to Jesus and the apostles. I love the Rosary (though I don't pray it enough), Mary, Joseph (my patron saint) and of course, Jesus, who I believe is really present in the Eucharist at each Mass.

 

I love the Catholic theology of the human body (we have so much intrinsic value in the eyes of God!) and of how male and female both reflect unique aspects of His image. It's beautiful. It's true. Our God is amazing. He created human beings, men and women, and said it was "very good". He said it was not good for us to be alone. We are made for community, for intimacy, for love - of ourselves, of one another, of God himself. As an early saint said: "The glory of God is a human being fully alive!" Amen!

 

Why would God be mindful of little old me (or you) and yet he is. And he showed this in the deepest way through Jesus, who became a human being and took on all the joys and sorrows of human existence before sacrificing his own life for us. Amazing... 

 

And yet I struggle with what I experienced today at Mass. We had a priest who has only done Mass at our parish a few other times. During his homily, he talked about the perils of pornography and how we as a society need to address this more. As someone who got caught up in porn in my 30s and 40s -- and finally get freed of it -- I agreed with him wholeheartedly. But then in the same vein, he talked about those "who believe in the lies of transgender ideology" and needed to be delivered from their "obsessions" and please pray for them, blah blah.

 

Deep sigh... 

 

I just despair of this generalized, flat response from the Christian and Catholic world to those who are on the wide and varied transgender spectrum. I don't pretend to have all the answers or even to understand myself (I am trying, I really am!!). But it is not that simple as just telling transgender people to "quit obsessing over these things and get better." (Especially folks who don't have these issues in their own lives - how arrogant to talk like this to someone who does).

 

Right or wrong, good or bad, I don't know. What I do know is that there has been something deep within me - in many ways I can't even put it into words -- that is enchanted by the feminine, that is drawn to the feminine, that ultimately desires to present myself as feminine to the world around me, that would prefer to have the female "parts" instead of the male ones I was born with, that is determined to give oxygen to the feminine part of me despite all the backlash and negative consequences it incurs.

 

What torments me is I don't know what to do with these two apparently incongruent things:  A church (and a wife and a lot of other people around me) who tells me I am believing lies, that I need to be content with the body God gave me (I am trying!) and that I need to repent. Contrasted with the inner voice that cries out in the wilderness that there is much more to it than this flippant response -- and please just walk in my shoes a mile or two before throwing your stones at me.

 

Man, I struggle with all of this to the point where I have been physically sick. I was lost for the rest of Mass this morning. I couldn't even focus on communion or the Eucharist.

 

I want to do the right thing. I want to honor God, the church, my family, the society that I live in. I know I am fragile and imperfect and prone to wander off the right path (i.e. my years in the world of porn were pretty bad).

 

I guess all of this to say: Can we in the Christian and Catholic world at least have an honest, deep dialogue, with a lot of listening and pondering and praying, without Christian ideologues giving us these types of trite responses that invalidate things many of us have been wrestling with (and sometimes trying to take our own lives over) for 30, 40, 50, 60 years????? Please! 

 

Thanks for letting me ramble. I just needed to get all this out. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Mary, Son of God, have mercy on us... 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

Ok, first let me say that I can identify with some of what you're feeling.  Being intersex/trans and in a relatively conservative religious community can feel like a really delicate balance at times.  It has joys, but lots of challenges.  Don't let those who don't understand us discourage you or shake your faith.  You've found something important and true in faith, something worth hanging on to, and a relationship with the Lord that can overcome the struggles of this world.  Remember that we have a hope in heaven, and that whatever we have suffered here will get fixed in the end. 

 

I am not Catholic.  I grew up Orthodox, and I'm now part of a faith community that is essentially Protestant, drawing much of its teaching from Lutheran, Pentecostal, and LDS traditions.  Through the Lutheran portion of that, we have some teaching that is similar to the Catholic Church.  The real presence in Communion (Eucharist), the theology of the body, the value of life, Biblical literalism, and submission to the sovereignty of God.  I believe firmly in those things.  How can belief in those things match with being intersex/trans?  My gender is not my choice, it is something that happened to me against my will and against God's plan.  Original Sin is the explanation.  We live in a world broken by sin.  That broken world, the actions of Satan, and our own sinful actions affect our minds and our bodies in ways beyond our control!

 

I think that even faith leaders can underestimate the pervasive effects of original sin.  It is easy to blame the sufferer, rather than the world.  It is easy to tell somebody "Oh, you're just believing a lie" than it is to admit that something awful has happened.  And actually, I think it is easier for trans folks to believe that being born this way is somehow a good thing, rather than accepting being the victim of a broken world.  In both cases, people prefer to believe in something THEY control rather than something they can't control.  Because not being in control means you must rely on something bigger than yourself - God!  That's uncomfortable for a sinful human mind to grasp....it means fighting that "Old Adam" nature inside us.  That struggle is common to the human experience, and even our faith leaders deal with it.  When somebody doesn't accept you, understand that they're fighting internally against Satan's lie that the world (and our own lives) are 100% understandable and controllable. 

 

Remember your baptism?  Baptism is both a spiritual reality and a physical picture of your salvation.  Baptism is a picture of drowning - drowning sin and being washed.  You enter the church and dip a finger in the holy water, right?  That's a reminder of your baptism, a reminder of the initial drowning of your sin nature, and a reminder that we daily drown that nature again through confession and absolution.  Take comfort from that.  Take comfort in being covered by redemption, even though the present world isn't what we want it to be, and even though it is a daily struggle. 

 

I believe that a lot of folks come to being intersex or transgender through the messed up chemicals in our modern world.  There are some documented cases of this.  Yes, trans folks have existed through history, but I think we're seeing it now to a greater degree because of chemicals.  I'm fortunate that my faith community accepts this, and so I'm not treated differently.  My faith leaders understand that I'm doing the best I can with the body I've got, because I can't change the reality that I just don't quite fit.  As I understand it, some Catholic leaders including Pope Francis are coming to a similar understanding, although there is significant disagreement in the Catholic Church.  Hopefully you can find the more accepting folks in the church so you can continue to be comfortable. 

 

Also be aware - there's an anti-religious element in the trans community.  I run into those who talk bad about priests and faith leaders, folks who want to oppose faith in general, and folks who may accept faith but totally oppose the theology of the body...even to the point of opposing moral behavior and values such as chastity.  In my experience, being intersex/trans AND having a fairly conservative faith makes it feel like there are two different worlds and that it is hard to participate in either one.  I believe that is a false dichotomy - you can be trans, Christian, and even conservative.  There's a place for you! 

[EasyE]

20 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

We live in a world broken by sin.  That broken world, the actions of Satan, and our own sinful actions affect our minds and our bodies in ways beyond our control!

totally agree... i think this is why I am so conflicted - I know my own sinful actions have contributed to quite a few messes around me. Is this just another example? My wife would say yes, this is another area where I am deceived and living in sin...

 

21 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I think that even faith leaders can underestimate the pervasive effects of original sin.  It is easy to blame the sufferer, rather than the world.  It is easy to tell somebody "Oh, you're just believing a lie" than it is to admit that something awful has happened.  And actually, I think it is easier for trans folks to believe that being born this way is somehow a good thing, rather than accepting being the victim of a broken world.

Very, very wise words...

 

22 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Remember your baptism?  Baptism is both a spiritual reality and a physical picture of your salvation.  Baptism is a picture of drowning - drowning sin and being washed.  You enter the church and dip a finger in the holy water, right?  That's a reminder of your baptism, a reminder of the initial drowning of your sin nature, and a reminder that we daily drown that nature again through confession and absolution.  Take comfort from that.  Take comfort in being covered by redemption, even though the present world isn't what we want it to be, and even though it is a daily struggle. 

This was beautiful. I really, really needed to be reminded of this!! Thank you!!

 

23 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

As I understand it, some Catholic leaders including Pope Francis are coming to a similar understanding, although there is significant disagreement in the Catholic Church.  Hopefully you can find the more accepting folks in the church so you can continue to be comfortable. 

It is interesting to watch the inner conflicts going on among church leaders... I am not really "out" to folks in my church at this point. I still go in full male mode (though I have been pushing boundaries with what I wear sometimes - feminine sweaters and such)... Overall, I have been accepted well in my community but it is very traditional in a lot of ways. 

 

25 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

In my experience, being intersex/trans AND having a fairly conservative faith makes it feel like there are two different worlds and that it is hard to participate in either one.  I believe that is a false dichotomy - you can be trans, Christian, and even conservative.  There's a place for you! 

Yes, yes, yes! I do feel like there are two different worlds out there and I don't fit completely in either.

 

Wow, these were great words of encouragement. Thank you!! Bless you!

 

Easy

[Ashley0616]

I'm from a similar church. I'm Lutheran Evangical Synod. I'm accepted as I am and they don't ask me to change anything. 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

48 minutes ago, EasyE said:

totally agree... i think this is why I am so conflicted - I know my own sinful actions have contributed to quite a few messes around me. Is this just another example? My wife would say yes, this is another area where I am deceived and living in sin...

 

Here's where a bit of Protestant theology might be of help.  There's a balance between realizing your sin in the confession/absolution process, and also not being bound by it and burdened by it.  When we do sin (although we try not to do it), we don't have to fear because we're covered by the blood.  It has been paid for.  We aren't under the law, we are under grace.  I think Romans chapter 6 is written about that balance - about striving to do better (sanctification) but understanding that we're no longer slaves to sin and its punishment (justification.)  So when you sin (its a "when" rather than an "if"), you can trust in forgiveness and you can trust in your salvation.  You can do so without worry.

 

Are you living in sin?  Honestly, I can't tell you.  That's between you and the Lord.  There are some sins we can control easily.  For example, I'm not tempted to steal.  There are others we can control, but only with effort.  I tend to gossip and complain....I work at it, but I fail repeatedly.  And then there are things we are burdened with under original sin, things that no matter how we struggle we don't quite manage to get victory over that sin in this mortal life.  Is being transgender a sin?  Honestly, I don't know.  But I don't know how I can be other than what I am.  Am I a girl with a boy's nature?  Or am I a boy with a girl's body?  The world messed me up to the point that I don't have the answer.  No matter what I choose, I'll mess something up.  I try to stay true to the spirit of my faith - and for me that means doing my best to mitigate the damage original sin and a messed up world have caused.

 

I live within the bounds of marriage as my faith understands it... my husband has multiple wives, so I keep my sexuality within the boundaries set by my family situation.  Since I'm not sure if God intended me to be a boy or a girl, I avoid any appearance of teaching or spiritual leadership.  Stuff like that.  I believe it is possible to be transgender and simultaneously do everything in our power to live close to the truth.  I believe God honors the effort.  Justification comes from the sacrifice of Jesus....we don't do that ourselves, we simply have trust that it is taken care of.  Sanctification is a lifelong process we work at, and that is only completed after our death when we enter into eternal life.  Some people are farther along on the sanctification process than others - and that's OK.  We don't judge each other on that, we provide encouragement.  Encouragement is the whole purpose of being part of a faith community, which is why misunderstanding of gender and misunderstanding of the difference between justification and sanctification can be so hurtful.  I hope that you find your faith and community to be uplifting and helpful in your journey, rather than discouraging. 

 

The Christian life is a hopeful, future-focused life!  I believe that God will fix everything after this life.  I'm not sure what that will look like.  Will I really be a boy?  Maybe.  Or maybe my mind and heart will fit into a female body.  I can't tell which it will be.... and I'm OK with either.  Being intersex/trans in this life means an even deeper struggle with the sovereignty of God - accepting that in the future, untarnished world our existence will be determined by Him, and we might not know now what our ultimate sex/gender will be.  But we can trust because we have a God who cares for us.

[EasyE]

5 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Is being transgender a sin?  Honestly, I don't know.  But I don't know how I can be other than what I am.  Am I a girl with a boy's nature?  Or am I a boy with a girl's body?  The world messed me up to the point that I don't have the answer.  No matter what I choose, I'll mess something up.  I try to stay true to the spirit of my faith - and for me that means doing my best to mitigate the damage original sin and a messed up world have caused.

Again you are very wise ... our resident philosopher here at transgenderpulse! Thanks for putting words to a lot of what I have been feeling and wrestling with.

 

In my case: am I boy with a girl's nature or am I a girl with a boy's body? Deep stuff... 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

13 minutes ago, EasyE said:

Again you are very wise ... our resident philosopher here at transgenderpulse! Thanks for putting words to a lot of what I have been feeling and wrestling with.

 

Haha, don't credit me with any of this.  Most of these things were taught to me by my husband.  He and I have had a ton of conversations as I figure myself out, so I'm just passing on some of the things that have set my mind at ease. 

[Keera]

Hi all I think there is a big difference between believing an ideology on gender and the appreciation of a personal experience.I am catholic and practicing and I reject what I have so far read of these ideologies.To me they seek to undermine any substantive understanding of what gender is.They end up with ridiculous conclusions like gender doesn't exist at all or that it only exists in so far as it is 'performed'.

People without a Faith that gives meaning to their lives can often end up thinking like that.They just go round in circles unable to settle on something substantive and positive.They are deniers in fact of anything that is obvious to most observers.

'Being' transgender is a body/soul experience of who we feel ourselves to be and from what I have read the catholic church recognizes and I quote ''...research has been carried out that seeks to deepen our understanding of the differences between men and women and how those are 'experienced' [my italics].....it is in relation to this type of research that we should be open to listen to reason to propose'' That's from a 2019 document.Of course he has since openly welcomed transgender people into the life of the church.

So there it is we are fully accepted by the Holy Father who loves us for who we are reflecting beautifully the love of our Father in heaven.It is such a comfort to know that God loves us just as we are

[Ivy]

Non-Catholic here.  But I was a practicing christian for most of my life - pretty much all the way from Lutheran to just short of snake handling.  My current spiritual practices would likely have gotten me burned at the stake a few centuries ago.

I think the idea of gender being "performed" is sometimes misunderstood as it being an act, like in a play, and something not real.  I understand it as simply how we live out our lives.  It can be related to our "sex" but it is not the same thing.  I think it can be fluid for that matter.

1 hour ago, Keera said:

People without a Faith that gives meaning to their lives can often end up thinking like that.They just go round in circles unable to settle on something substantive and positive.

I think we as humans want things to be settled.  We like rules even when we think we don't.  Reality for me is that things change, and I change as I learn and experience more.

1 hour ago, Keera said:

Of course he has since openly welcomed transgender people into the life of the church.

I kinda like the guy, actually.  But from what I've seen this trans acceptance is kinda conditional.

1 hour ago, Keera said:

They are deniers in fact of anything that is obvious to most observers.

I think your frame of reference has a lot to do with what is "obvious" to you.

 

I think it would be hard for me to be Catholic and Trans.  I hope it works out for you guys.

 

[Keera]

Hi Ivy and thanks for your thoughtful response....much appreciated.

I think Francis has shown great openness to LGBT+people.It was never going to be a free-for-all do what you want openness but he has shown an appreciation and acceptance of the transgender experience.It's a heck of a lot more than you will get from some sections of the church especially in the US.He has urged church leaders to welcome transgender people.I personally take his invitation to me as saying it's ok to be transgender...there is  no wrongdoing in 'being' transgender.Of course we are always capable of wrongdoing and we have to work that out ourselves but for the leader of the catholic church to welcome me as trans is remarkable.I can hardly go out my back door for fear of ridicule but he would throw his arms around me and say......'welcome'

I hope that one day I will be able to attend Mass as my feminine self.I could do it tomorrow if I had the courage and confidence and just didn't care what people thought but I'm not there yet.......Francis is there though!

Cheers everyone Love Keera

[MaeBe]

On 3/17/2024 at 11:23 AM, EasyE said:

A church (and a wife and a lot of other people around me) who tells me I am believing lies, that I need to be content with the body God gave me (I am trying!) and that I need to repent.

 

What is the lie? To whom are you bearing false witness? And maybe you are content with what God gave you: A broader spectrum of reality, insight into the world that is multi-colored instead of black and white. God doesn't care about what you wear or what your mannerisms are. I think a God who made humanity would punish those that judge, ridicule, and demand repentance.

 

On 3/17/2024 at 12:31 PM, EasyE said:

And actually, I think it is easier for trans folks to believe that being born this way is somehow a good thing, rather than accepting being the victim of a broken world.

 

What good comes from self-loathing? Not one thing. "I'm broken"? No. Hard stop. No.

 

On 3/17/2024 at 11:23 AM, EasyE said:

I guess all of this to say: Can we in the Christian and Catholic world at least have an honest, deep dialogue, with a lot of listening and pondering and praying, without Christian ideologues giving us these types of trite responses that invalidate things many of us have been wrestling with (and sometimes trying to take our own lives over) for 30, 40, 50, 60 years????? Please! 

 

My father is a Catholic deacon and I was raised Catholic, when I spoke about my journey he said "I was just being who God made me". That floored me initially, but at the same turn he claims that trans people are trying to "change who God made them" and snipes at me with, "is this your Man Purse?", "You're not changing your pronous are you?", and side comments about "not wearing socks" when he's obviously looking at my girlie shoes. I think he's getting the idea that I am not just a man born with boobs, that I might be one those "Transes" and that grates. I don't flaunt it, so I have a handbag and wore some nice leather shoes with no socks? Anyway, the problem is that any change to the man/woman dynamic absolutely demolishes the power structure of the religion; only men can be ordained as priests or deacons or hold any appreciable rank in the Church, women are there to "raise the flock" by being mothers either literally or figuratively as nuns.

 

In the end, I think the answer is to tell them, "God made me this way, it's not how you live your life and I am not asking you to change who you are. I am simply asking you to understand and love me with the grace and compassion God blessed us all with."

 

Instead I see "Christian" churches with lit up signs that say stuff like "Do Battle! Let the armor of God protect you!" Ginning up violent rhetoric that is antithetical to the Jesus narratives and forcing these phobic homilies more geared to filling the tithe box than actually interpreting the gospels.

[VickySGV]

God does not make mistakes, but humans make many mistakes by assuming perfection according to what they think it is, and not what it really is.  They are the ones taking the deity's name in vain by putting their God's name on their stuffy, unimaginative and compassion-lacking views of how people should live and act.  I no longer believe the doctrines of sin and that we are fallen from anything.  There was only original possibility in our lives from the beginning and that is based on our attention to what can be done with the tools of knowledge and receptiveness to all creation. 

[Heather Shay]

Agreed Vicky. I used to be indoctrinated by the religions that said they had the answers and if you didn't believe THEIR so called truth, you were bad. I try to follow the actual teachings of the Christ and Buddha and MLK and others and avoid organized religion.

It's the people in these powerful groups who do the damage to man- and woman-kind.

[Timi]

Dearest @EasyE, 

 

Thank you for sharing and questioning. 

 

I have spent a great deal of time in the Catholic Church. I am a cradle Episcopalian married to a Roman Catholic. The liturgies and practices between the two would be, to an outsider at first glance, indistinguishable. And I'll never forget what the Episcopal priest counseled us as we prepared for marriage: "Don't worry! I have no doubt that the Episcopal and Catholic Churches will be in full communion in another 2, maybe 3 ... hundred years!"

 

My experience and observation is that the Catholic Church is HUGE! And the Catholic tradition has such an expansive and rich theology and history! And the clergy who serve at the Parish level - well - let's just say that it can be hit or miss in terms of their engagement with that depth. 

 

Please please pretty please try to NOT let those critical external voices trigger an internal critical voice! (I really am writing that as advice to myself as much as to you!)

 

I invite you to seek out some of the other, deeper voices in the Catholic Church. Do you know of the Center for Action and Contemplation? Founded by Franciscan Richard Rohr, they have a daily newsletter that I find very inspiring. I invite you to check it out. Here is their website, in case you are interested: https://cac.org

 

I'd also like to encourage you by sharing a notice that was posted on my church's greeting board last Sunday.

 

And also - don't worry. I have no doubt that Transgender people will be welcomed everywhere in the Catholic Church in another 2, maybe 3 ... hundred years!

 

Peace, 

 

-Timi

 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

On 3/20/2024 at 1:59 PM, MaeBe said:

What good comes from self-loathing? Not one thing. "I'm broken"? No. Hard stop. No.

 

My father is a Catholic deacon and I was raised Catholic, when I spoke about my journey he said "I was just being who God made me".

 

On 3/20/2024 at 3:40 PM, VickySGV said:

God does not make mistakes

 

I no longer believe the doctrines of sin and that we are fallen from anything.  

 

I'll address these portions in a limited way.  First, there are Christian denominations who do without the doctrine of original sin.  However, Catholicism is not one of them.  Neither are similar groups such as Lutherans and Episcopalians.  It is a long-standing Christian doctrine broadly accepted.  So in a way, accepting that doctrine is a part of being an authentic member of a faith community that holds that belief. 

 

I think some folks see the doctrine of original sin as negative and judgemental.  I disagree.  I don't feel self-loathing because I'm broken.  Admitting that brokenness is just a fact, a part of honest self-reflection and awareness of the human condition.  It is an explanation for a lot of things, including the idea of whether God makes mistakes.

 

To me, Scripture clearly indicates the binary nature of gender, God's intention to make mankind as male and female.  To me, Scripture clearly indicates the rectitude of the doctrine of original sin.  That doctrine explains how God can intend humanity to be a certain way, and how we have a reality which is currently at variance with that plan - while we also have a God who doesn't make mistakes.  God didn't make me to be intersex/trans.  I'm not supposed to be this way, yet I am.  And without a clear path in this life to what God's intention was, I do the best I can with what I've got.  I don't see anything negative in that, rather a neutral explanation of events. 

 

I believe that to take away the doctrine of original sin takes away a lot of the reasoning about our situation and background.  And it is my belief that simply saying, "Oh, we're good exactly how we are" is a modern fallacy at best, and more probably an ancient Satanic lie.  In that direction lies a denial of the concept of sin itself, and a denial of our need for a Savior.  No, we're not good exactly how we are.  Things need to be fixed.  But our hope lies in the fact that we serve a Divine Fixer, and that we don't have to do the fixing ourselves. 

 

There is also a big benefit to the doctrine of original sin that I think gets overlooked.  Original sin is a basis for equality!  The Psalmist tells us in 51 verse 5: "Behold I was conceived in iniquity, and in sin my mother bore me."  That means it is a condition common to all humanity.  St. Paul describes this extensively in Romans Chapter 3, which includes verse 23 "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God."  That's just a summation of the chapter...the whole is very edifying about the equality of sin that we all share - that nobody is righteous.  Jesus illustrates some of this in his parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14, which shows that people who think they are sinless and virtuous are in fact in danger, while those who recognize their innate sin and their current shortcomings and admit them to God are in right relationship with Him.  We are equal in our innate sinfulness, equal in our need for a Savior, equal in our struggle to live the life process of sanctification that we are called to live.  I find hope in that, rather than something unpleasant. 

[VickySGV]

53 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Episcopalians

I am one, and while the church is not completely around the corner on the Original Sin and The Fall ideas,  the church is headed that way.  This summer when their General Convention meets, a Revision Commission for the Book Of Common Prayer which is the Church's basis for Rites and Liturgies is going to have some warm debate about moving the main liturgies away from the Augustinian concepts of sin at least.  Not ready for a full break, but they have promised not to throw me and a lot of other LGBTQ members out of the church for thinking the way we do.  A branch of the Lutheran Church which is in communion with The Episcopal Church here in the U.S. is also headed along that line. 

 

The Prayer Book from 1921 (103 years ago) which I have a copy of from my mother was deep in the sin thing, that is true enough, 1973 Book when I was first confirmed, not nearly as much in the newest rite.

[MaeBe]

There are people that will talk out of both sides of their mouths: humans are all steeped in sin and need saving, but there are other humans that are worse! That, we’re not in fact, all children of God and made in God’s image. That queer people are some affront to God and that anyone who believes that they are equally human are deceived by satan.

 

I see no earthly or divine reason to believe or feel that being queer needs any amount of extra mortal, or moral, flagellation. There is absolutely no reason to pray it away or to view thousands of years of human societal biases that permeate the Bible as divine truth. The Bible was written by humans and done so with the mind of the times. Times change. Or should we all be stoned or crucified because queer people break the ancient views on morality?

 

Quote verse all you want, but I will never believe that queer people need to see themselves as lesser or broken humans.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

Sure, there are people who are hypocrites and talk out both sides of their mouth. You can find those in any group, not just Christians.  The actions of people don't make a doctrine of the faith any less true or relevant.  The whole relevance of original sin is that it shows LGBTQ+ folks as being equal, and that straight/cis folks are just as broken...that nobody gets to feel "better" than others.  I believe that is something valuable.  

 

Sure, there are plenty of folks who believe that Scripture is "dated" and that somehow believers need to catch up with the times.  I'm not one of them.  And in general,  from what I understand of the Catholic faith, that is not the perspective held by the Catholic Church....and Catholicism is kind of the context of this topic.  

 

I believe it is possible to be intersex/trans and live authentically within the boundaries of a traditional faith... so my points have been aimed at showing how that can be done.

[Ivy]

There was a time when I accepted the concept of "original sin" because it can be found in scripture even though it didn't make a lot of sense to me personally.  But it doesn't really have to make sense if it's in there.  I mean, God's ways are not our ways… right?

But these days I have questions about the whole concept of "sin".  Sure there is plenty of bad stuff going on - I've been responsible for my share - but "sin" seems to cover a lot of things that aren't what I might consider "bad".

But "sin" is a christian concept, and this is a christian thread, so I can't really say much more about it one way or the other.

 

 

[MaeBe]

2 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

And in general,  from what I understand of the Catholic faith, that is not the perspective held by the Catholic Church....and Catholicism is kind of the context of this topic.

The question was asked how to change the mentality within the Catholic Church. There are many mentalities in the Church and fundamental/literal interpretation of the Bible is only one of them.

[Ashley0616]

If history repeats itself the only way the Catholic church will change is by another holy war. Martin Luther wanted peace but the Roman Catholics weren't having it. He did post 95 Theses on their door which they didn't take to kindly to be challenged. 

[KathyLauren]

2 hours ago, Ivy said:

Sure there is plenty of bad stuff going on - I've been responsible for my share - but "sin" seems to cover a lot of things that aren't what I might consider "bad".

 

Reminds me of a quote from a short story ("The Devil You Don't") by one of my favourite authors, Keith Laumer:

"We all sense instincively what true evil is.  Sin is merely statutory evil - things that are regarded as wrong simply because there is a rule against them."