Biological Traits of the Target Gender

[Abigail Genevieve]

There are some 800*(?) physical characteristics that are definite signs of one sex or the other.  The XY XX chromosone marker is one.  Is it common for TG people to have physical markers that are more indicative of the other gender than their assigned-at-birth gender?  I have about six 'markers' I know of that indicate that I am female, despite AMAB and clearly male characteristics.  In all likelihood there are more. 

 

* heard it through the internet.  Don't let the number distract the discussion. Thank you.

[KathyLauren]

I am not sure that any characteristic is a "definite" sign of one sex or the other.  Certain physical characteristics are more common in one sex than the other.  But every single person, cis and trans, has a mix of characteristics that are typical of both sexes.  Even the xx/xy chromosomes are not definitive.  There are XX men (assigned thus at birth) and XY women (likewise).  In fact genetics labs in universities don't let the students analyze their own chromosomes in case they get a big surprise.

 

My body hair was more female than male, including pubic hair that was halfway between male pattern and female pattern.  My pelvis, likewise, was wider than a typical male of my build, though not as wide as a female.  My face had softer features than many "rugged" men, even before I started HRT.

 

I don't think those features indicated that I was female, though they sure did make transitioning easier. 

[Abigail Genevieve]

51 minutes ago, KathyLauren said:

I am not sure that any characteristic is a "definite" sign of one sex or the other.  Certain physical characteristics are more common in one sex than the other.  But every single person, cis and trans, has a mix of characteristics that are typical of both sexes.  Even the xx/xy chromosomes are not definitive.  There are XX men (assigned thus at birth) and XY women (likewise).  In fact genetics labs in universities don't let the students analyze their own chromosomes in case they get a big surprise.

True. I was inexact.  But some characteristics seem to be 99% one way, 1% the other in distribution in the population. Some features appear in the other sex, but it is extremely unusual that they do, just as a matter of distribution.  That someone has a high number of features in the unusual range for their sex is, well, unusually unusual.  This is a 2d4d graph showing significant overlap.  My 2d4d ratio, repeatedly measured, is 1.00, extremely common among women but rare among men.   Other features may have the same sort of distribution.
I agree there are XY girls and XX boys as this feature is not the only thing that goes into sex determination, contra some claims.

I think there is a grey zone, correct me if I am wrong, between intersex and transgender, in which one has some features that are visibly of the target gender.  The argument has been repeatedly made that "therapy will fix the transgender mindset".  In my case I look at my hands (pretty rather than manly), that pubic hair pattern that created hell a few times in high school gym showers, and a few other things that tell me this in not all in my head.  You can't therapy me out of the fact that I throw like a girl and everyone who has ever seen me thrown a ball has said the exact same thing, in different settings, not knowing each other, decades apart in some cases. 

[KathyLauren]

1 hour ago, Abby Gen said:

I think there is a grey zone, correct me if I am wrong, between intersex and transgender, in which one has some features that are visibly of the target gender.  The argument has been repeatedly made that "therapy will fix the transgender mindset". 

 

I agree.  If you don't restrict the definition of intersex to the genitals (a rather arbitrary restriction), it is easy to see transgender as a form of intersex, where different gendered body parts do not have matching genders.  I think the knowledge of biology is evolving in that direction. 

 

More researchers are realizing that gender identity is biological, involving structures in the brain.  It is no more a mindset than left-handedness is.  Understanding this eliminates the ideas that transgender is a choice, or that it can be or should be cured.  And it emphasizes that we are born this way.

[Davie]

Boy, if you really want the "truth" about trans folks, ask a cis person who has it all figured out. I had coffee with friends this afternoon, and one cis friend said she knew the person across the room on the left was a transgender woman. I couldn't tell--I'm not so quick to make a judgment. I like to hear it from the person themself. But my friend was "sure" he was transgender because she knows a trans-woman personally. And then I said "two" because she knows I'm trans non-binary. But then she said "No, I mean a real transperson. Real transpeople are the ones who have had surgery." I guess I'm not real enough for her, or enough of an expert. It's great to have real understanding.

[KathyLauren]

1 hour ago, Davie said:

ask a cis person who has it all figured out

 

Aargh!! 

 

I once heard someone say that they could pick out trans women in a crowd because they were the ones with the big breast implants.  I guess the good news for me is that, by that standard, I pass, but - aaaaargh!!

[Abigail Genevieve]

30 minutes ago, KathyLauren said:

 

Aargh!! 

 

I once heard someone say that they could pick out trans women in a crowd because they were the ones with the big breast implants.  I guess the good news for me is that, by that standard, I pass, but - aaaaargh!!

As a friend of mine would say, @science!

 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

3 hours ago, KathyLauren said:

I agree.  If you don't restrict the definition of intersex to the genitals (a rather arbitrary restriction), it is easy to see transgender as a form of intersex, where different gendered body parts do not have matching genders. 

 

As I'm intersex, I think it shares some aspects of being transgender, but there are some differences.  I guess folks could make a Venn diagram of the various traits.  For me, I was born with some anatomical variation, which was somewhat expressed externally but not enough to be noticed by doctors who didn't think about it.  When I saw a doctor a couple of years ago, she didn't immediately think of me being intersex until some internal scans were done and all the crazy plumbing showed up in the images.  A lot of the study of intersex folks seems to be focused on chromosome variations or disorders...and my doctor did some testing.  Turns out, I'm a "normal" 46XX female!  Yet I never got breasts, some aspects of my genitals are larger, and I have a complete (and evidently functional) prostate, along with the plumbing to hook it up to the rest of my system.  Its a medical mystery!  I think there's a lot of aspects of our genetic programming that science hasn't explored yet.  And even more aspects of our lives affected by our environment, such as chemicals in the food and water.

 

Going by what I've learned with my two trans friends (both are AMAB girls), you can be transgender without any genital variation at all.  They were born with "normal" male features, and have done a non-op transition process.  Of course since they started HRT early in life, they pass really well and didn't develop a lot of the masculine body shape you normally think of. 

 

One thing I can notice about both of my friends, though, is bone structure.  Even having avoided male puberty, their bone structure seems slightly different from that of cis females.  Hand structure and shoulders can be a bit of a giveaway.  And I think you might see it more on trans women who began their process later in life.  As a general idea, male bone structure just seems a bit more squared off or angular.  And since I am in my boy form, its a big thing (aside from my tiny physical dimensions) that keeps me from passing as a mature male.  I never got hips or breasts, but a bit of feminine softness and lack of angles is noticeable. 

 

How relevant is all this?  I guess it depends on if people are out there "looking" for trans folks or not.  Passing seems to be a matter of distance and degrees - some folks pass at 20 feet but not at 10, others pass almost flawlessly except for intense scrutiny.  And there's enough natural variation among humans in bone structure and appearance that we're seeing incidents where cis girls are being falsely labeled as trans. 

[Davie]

5 hours ago, Abby Gen said:

Aargh

I'm not sure laughter is the best medicine in this case, but it makes a pretty good pain killer! Thanks . . . and Aargh!

[Mirrabooka]

10 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

One thing I can notice about both of my friends, though, is bone structure. 

Not just squareness though.

 

I witnessed a discussion elsewhere last year about the different 2D:4D ratios between women and men. It implied that generally speaking, women have longer index fingers than ring fingers, and for men, it is the opposite. Personal observation is that it isn't always the case and that skeletal height is a factor too. But there is apparently a correlation between this ratio and testosterone exposure in the womb.

[KathyLauren]

34 minutes ago, Mirrabooka said:

Personal observation is that it isn't always the case

 

This is a perfect example of the graph that @Abby Gen posted a few posts back in this thread.  There is good data to indicate that the 2D:4D ratios of women and men are different, because the respective graphs peak at different values.  That means that there is a real, biological connection.  Yet the overlap between the two curves is so huge that it has no predictive value at all.

[Ivy]

I had to look up 2D:4D.  Talk about being scrutinized.  I thought it was just big hands vs small hands.

I see cis women with narrow hips, and broad shoulders a lot.  I've kinda given up on figuring this stuff out.

I know I don't pass and it kinda hurts, but that's my life apparently.

[Abigail Genevieve]

1 hour ago, KathyLauren said:

 

This is a perfect example of the graph that @Abby Gen posted a few posts back in this thread.  There is good data to indicate that the 2D:4D ratios of women and men are different, because the respective graphs peak at different values.  That means that there is a real, biological connection.  Yet the overlap between the two curves is so huge that it has no predictive value at all.

People WILL look at your hands if they are suspicious in an effort to clock you.  The thing is, for any one individual, someone can be anywhere.  It's not like 2 separate mountain peaks with a big valley between, which I think some people make it out to be.  There may be some traits that are like that, but I have not seen them.  I haven't really looked for them.

 

  

[Desert Fox]

I think there are so many potential combinations and variations and lots that science hasn’t figured out yet, that I believe that there may be more intersex variances than are listed now. How many “gender non conforming” people are actually even tested for known intersex conditions? I know I haven’t had any test. I know my body does not appear obviously intersex in any way, but I clearly had some feminine physical traits and mannerisms from as early on as I can remember, despite a “normal” upbringing and a very masculine father, so I don’t believe it’s all behavioral/learned.

 

And certainly there are cis women who identify as women but have very male characteristics…I just wish there was true acceptance for the beauty of natural variation…

[Abigail Genevieve]

Here is height of men and women.  Note the significant overlap.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

7 hours ago, Ivy said:

I had to look up 2D:4D.  Talk about being scrutinized.  I thought it was just big hands vs small hands.

 

I'm not even sure about finger lengths, but I have noticed that typical male fingers are a bit more knobby.  Prominent veins and knuckles.  Female hands seem to have a smoother look.  Of course like everything else, its a very broad generality. 

 

As for height, there's quite a bit of overlap.  But I think the difference is noticeable even just slightly away from the median.  Me for example.  If the median female height is 5'5" and I'm shorter than that, I don't get anywhere near the median male height of 5'10".  While you see guys of all heights, it becomes noticeable when you see one who is shorter than the usual female.  Likewise, it becomes noticeable when you see a girl who is equal to or taller than the height of the usual male. 

 

It sux that any of this matters, but appearance overall is socially important.  I don't see that changing anytime soon. 

[Sally Stone]

1 hour ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

It sux that any of this matters, but appearance overall is socially important.  I don't see that changing anytime soon. 

It does suck because appearance shouldn't matter.  Sadly, we (society) is hung up on appearance, specifically the beauty quotient.  I wish for a world where appearance doesn't matter (yes, a delusional dreamer here).  It should be about our internal beauty, not how closely aligned our physical characteristics are to arbitrary societal norms. 

 

Of course, I make these statements, yet I catch myself using those same arbitrary societal norms as a measuring stick.  I need to stop doing that.  Instead, I need to love my appearance despite knowing it's a bit different from other girl's.   Let's all make a pact to be happy and content with that reflection in the mirror.

[Abigail Genevieve]

 Carrying angle is normally 14 degrees in the female and 11 in the male.  You can test yours by holding your arms out parallel in front of you. If you can touch your elbows to each other with your arms straight, you have the f situation.  Otherwise, m.  (There are more precise methods and this is practically a parlor game) Here is some variation but less overlap than for some of these factors. 

 

Mine is f, and this explains also why I throw like a girl.  I seem to have a female skeleton.  And some female hair patterns, and this and that, but I have head balding, although it is not quite normal balding.

 

https://radiopaedia.org/articles/carrying-angle?lang=us

[Abigail Genevieve]

On 3/30/2024 at 7:24 PM, KathyLauren said:

 

Aargh!! 

 

I once heard someone say that they could pick out trans women in a crowd because they were the ones with the big breast implants.  I guess the good news for me is that, by that standard, I pass, but - aaaaargh!!

That is terribly wrong for all sorts of reasons.  For one thing, many cisgender women have big breasts.  For another, some trans women are stunningly beautiful, particularly those who transitioned before their early twenties.  For another, what is the obsession with picking trans women out of a crowd?

[MaeBe]

7 minutes ago, Abby Gen said:

For another, what is the obsession with picking trans women out of a crowd?

Sport? I mean that in the worst possible way.

There are things I think about, my biometrics, that aren’t male-typical: gynecomastia, wider hips (but no butt), minor health issues that are more typically found in females, and it makes me wonder but it’s all just wonder. Am I predisposed to femininity? Does it matter?

[Abigail Genevieve]

6 minutes ago, MaeBe said:

Sport? I mean that in the worst possible way.

There are things I think about, my biometrics, that aren’t male-typical: gynecomastia, wider hips (but no butt), minor health issues that are more typically found in females, and it makes me wonder but it’s all just wonder. Am I predisposed to femininity? Does it matter?

Where it matters is in refuting those who insist this is all in your head. Some of those are behind the people making laws in this country.

 

Also, guys can be attracted to those of us with fem features and turn violent when they find out they were attracted to a guy.  One reason to learn martial arts.  In that I am not kidding.  I've had a number of guys get friendly with me over the years, particularly when I was a teenager, but I never let myself be alone with them and I never showed any interest back. I am to this day suspicious of guys wanting to be my friend.  It messes up any number of things, like healthy man on man relationships. 

 

Some guys are attracted to transwomen for reasons I am not comfortable with. Cis-women learn all kinds of things about where they should not be and to go in groups and never meet a man alone they don't otherwise know in a place where he can cause harm, because some will.  Some transwomen seem to think they can go wherever a man goes and it will be okay. No, some men are violent against women, even more so against transwomen.

[Abigail Genevieve]

It's also important to note where this does not matter.  Someone can be trans without any of these characteristics falling in the target gender. Someone can be trans with all of them.  These are 3 out of 800, and if we could somehow measure all 800, and someone had 800 in their natal gender, they might still be trans.  Nor should we use this to out-trans each other: I am more natally trans than you, nyah nyah nyah.  It might be encouraging to some that there are physical symptoms in some of us that indicate trans, but do not prove it. It is not that if you have cross-sexual characteristics then you must be trans, nor that if you do not have them, you cannot be trans. 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

3 hours ago, Sally Stone said:

It does suck because appearance shouldn't matter.  Sadly, we (society) is hung up on appearance, specifically the beauty quotient.  I wish for a world where appearance doesn't matter (yes, a delusional dreamer here).  It should be about our internal beauty, not how closely aligned our physical characteristics are to arbitrary societal norms. 

 

Of course, I make these statements, yet I catch myself using those same arbitrary societal norms as a measuring stick.  I need to stop doing that.  Instead, I need to love my appearance despite knowing it's a bit different from other girl's.   Let's all make a pact to be happy and content with that reflection in the mirror.

 

I think appearance matters because it is all related to reproduction.  Its an un-removable part of our instincts.  Our brains are running a program in the background, constantly evaluating those around us as potential reproductive partners.  I recall that studies have shown that we even assess people's looks based on symmetry.  The more symmetrical somebody is, the more likely they are to have "high quality" DNA.  And while science hasn't given a clear indication on pheromones, I definitely believe we're sniffing each other for compatibility.  Of course, those instincts don't always present themselves in an exclusively heterosexual way.  My GF literally introduced herself to me by getting close and smelling me.  I was in my girl form then, so obviously not a potential reproductive partner...yet she noticed me partly due to scent.  Life is weird!

[Sally Stone]

9 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I think appearance matters because it is all related to reproduction.  Its an un-removable part of our instincts.

I absolutely agree with this.  However, I worry that the biology/instinct aspect of this could be used to defend a Neanderthal at trial because he assaulted or killed a trans person.   Actually, I'm kind of surprised it hasn't been tried already.  The counter though is that while animals, we are human animals, and we should be able to resist our harmful animal instincts.

[Ivy]

53 minutes ago, Sally Stone said:

I worry that the biology/instinct aspect of this could be used to defend a Neanderthal at trial because he assaulted or killed a trans person.

Isn't this the gay/trans panic defense?  

And, please go easy on us poor Neanderthals.  The 21st century is hard enough as it is.