Religous And Political Agenda Using Children

[Guest Anna_Banana]

Alright, serious reply this time, now that I've got the joke out of my system. I understand that there is some legitimacy in people wanting to have separate bathrooms. Many women actually use the restroom to freshen up or escape the world for a few minutes...or at least that's what I've seen during my short time in the lady's room. I've noticed that men like to engage in vulgar conversation when using their own restroom. Sometimes women need to take care of other personal needs, and they'd rather not feel that men are present.

So what's my solution? I suggest only allowing diagnosed transgendered individuals into the restrooms. If a therapist has determined that so and so strongly identifies with the female sex, then allow that person to use the lady's room. Likewise for transmen. However, if the person is simply unsure about their gender, neither leaning toward one side or the other, I can't really see why they should be using a new restroom. A person in that situation would best benefit from a single occupancy restroom.

However, if the "normal" people are only concerned about rape, then that's absurd. Most bathroom rape occurs because someone forced their way into the opposite sex's bathroom. Nothing is stopping anyone from walking into any bathroom. There isn't a special door that filters people out. Planes are still going to crash, even if you pass a law that says "planes are not allowed to crash." People are still going to murder people, even if murder is illegal. Law is intangible. It can enable others to carry out justice, but it in itself can't hold out the arms it doesn't have to protect you.

Does anyone else find it ironic that the political right is telling us what to do? Aren't they the ones always preaching, "Don't tell me what to do! Less government!"? Do as I say, not as I do, right?

.Anna

*Does not take conservatives seriously anymore*

[Guest Camicochan]

Alright, serious reply this time, now that I've got the joke out of my system. I understand that there is some legitimacy in people wanting to have separate bathrooms. Many women actually use the restroom to freshen up or escape the world for a few minutes...or at least that's what I've seen during my short time in the lady's room. I've noticed that men like to engage in vulgar conversation when using their own restroom. Sometimes women need to take care of other personal needs, and they'd rather not feel that men are present.

I do agree with this. I don't think it's a good idea to un-gender restrooms altogether, but simply make at least one single-occupancy neutral restroom available wherever the women's/men's are. I am a hundred times more comfortable in women's spaces than men's spaces, both for bodily reasons (even my old guy friends treat me different since I have breasts, for example) and for the general shared sensitivity and respect. There are things I would only talk about with other girls, and I assume it would be the same with guys. I definitely see the need for the additional neutral bathrooms, however, and have myself needed them in past situations. While some people have advocated that all bathrooms be neutral, I'd have to disagree; you are projecting your genderless or gender-fluid experiences on others. I think all are perfectly valid identities, just everyone has different needs.

So what's my solution? I suggest only allowing diagnosed transgendered individuals into the restrooms. If a therapist has determined that so and so strongly identifies with the female sex, then allow that person to use the lady's room. Likewise for transmen. However, if the person is simply unsure about their gender, neither leaning toward one side or the other, I can't really see why they should be using a new restroom. A person in that situation would best benefit from a single occupancy restroom.

I disagree with this, however, and here's why. Everyone has a different order of doing things and different situations. Some start living as female before therapy, or before they are "officially" diagnosed. For that matter, even dressing other than your birth sex, especially for mtf spectrum people, makes it dangerous to go to the bathroom of your birth sex. I myself started full time just before therapy. Even after seeing my therapist, I was never technically diagnosed (the topic of "whether or not I was transgender" never came up), just given council and support and necessary letters. Saying that only "officially transgender" people can use the restroom of their gender is really a form of exacting privelege.

[Guest Eth]

Alright, serious reply this time, now that I've got the joke out of my system. I understand that there is some legitimacy in people wanting to have separate bathrooms. Many women actually use the restroom to freshen up or escape the world for a few minutes...or at least that's what I've seen during my short time in the lady's room. I've noticed that men like to engage in vulgar conversation when using their own restroom. Sometimes women need to take care of other personal needs, and they'd rather not feel that men are present.

So what's my solution? I suggest only allowing diagnosed transgendered individuals into the restrooms. If a therapist has determined that so and so strongly identifies with the female sex, then allow that person to use the lady's room. Likewise for transmen. However, if the person is simply unsure about their gender, neither leaning toward one side or the other, I can't really see why they should be using a new restroom. A person in that situation would best benefit from a single occupancy restroom.

However, if the "normal" people are only concerned about rape, then that's absurd. Most bathroom rape occurs because someone forced their way into the opposite sex's bathroom. Nothing is stopping anyone from walking into any bathroom. There isn't a special door that filters people out. Planes are still going to crash, even if you pass a law that says "planes are not allowed to crash." People are still going to murder people, even if murder is illegal. Law is intangible. It can enable others to carry out justice, but it in itself can't hold out the arms it doesn't have to protect you.

Does anyone else find it ironic that the political right is telling us what to do? Aren't they the ones always preaching, "Don't tell me what to do! Less government!"? Do as I say, not as I do, right?

.Anna

*Does not take conservatives seriously anymore*

There is a very small handful of conservatives I know who I take seriously these days. There are some good ones out there but the majority really are religious extremists. I heard someone once refer to the Republicans of today as "Talibangelicals". It's true though - while they scream about the horrors those horrible Muslims *audible gasp* are doing in the Middle East, they claim to be perfect, always right, and following "morality". The truth is that these people want to force their religious doctrines on everyone and bring us back to medieval times where they can torture anyone who disagrees with them or dares to make scientific progress that does anything to disprove the idea of their ruthless war God, who they claim is all about peace and love.

"Religion ruled the world once. It was called the Dark Ages." - A Bumper Sticker

"And even if we did have only Christians in our midst, if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States of America, whose Christianity would we teach in the schools? Would we go with James Dobson's, or Al Sharpton's? Which passages of Scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is ok and that eating shellfish is abomination? How about Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount - a passage that is so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application? So before we get carried away, let's read our bibles. Folks haven't been reading their bibles."

- Barack Obama

But on to real discussion... I can see some flaws in your ideas for bathrooms that I think would cause people a lot of unnecessary trouble. They would be the following:

1. Not all places have single, private bathrooms for the intersexed, androgynous or otherwise neither male nor female person to make use of. Should they have to just hold it? Why?

2. I definitely agree that transsexuals/transgenderists/other categories for identities following that trend should be allowed to enter the bathroom that suits them if they have a therapist's letter. However I don't think that's all that should be there. What about people who can't get a letter? Not everyone has the resources we do. I am sure there are many MtFs and FtMs on the streets with no money or job who have found ways to make themselves more passable to the point where it'd be dangerous for them to use the bathroom of their birth sex, but they can't get a letter. Also, what if people have their letter but don't look all that passable? Should they have to whip out their letter every time they want to use the bathroom? That seems like a huge hassle to me.

3. As for the whole "privacy" and not wanting the opposite sex thing... I'm not really sure what to say besides "So?". I mean, so what about the feminine hygiene stuff? Why not just make better stalls so that the walls extend all the way down and extend fairly high and that the doors lock easily. Then who cares if there's a man on the other side? That to me would seem like being mad/scared that there's a man in the same building. It's not like they're doing anything on the other side of the wall besides, y'know, using the bathroom. As for the talk and vulgarity and all of that... Why does it need to be done in a bathroom? Can't people find somewhere else to do that?

I do understand that the "majority" of people tend to have no or very few/minor gender "abnormalities" and can be neatly categorised as either "male" or "female"... but at the very least, shouldn't there be a compromise where instead of having two "main" bathrooms, we add in a third? "Male", "Female" and "Unisex". Anyone can use all three but by social convention men used the "men's" and women use the "women's" and anyone who doesn't care can use the Unisex bathroom. That way we don't have these stupid lines, glares, people freaking out when someone uses a certain bathroom depending on what gender they appear as, etc.

Mainly I think we need to get over this notion of "the opposite sex is weird and definitely has a totally different thought process than I do". Really, a personality is made up of tons of different variables and sex is just one tiny little factor thrown in, but we give it way more attention than it's due. Yes your sex and/or gender identity have a lot to do with your personality, but so does everything else. Aren't your favorite hobbies a part of what makes you you? Your dream job? Your aspirations? The areas that you are most interested and knowledgeable in? Your favorite colors/music genres/movie genres/etc.?

I just see it like this:

Jane likes the color green. She likes to play hockey. She likes science-fiction and her favorite movie is Star Trek.

Joey likes the color green. He likes to play hockey. He likes science-fiction and his favorite movie is Star Trek.

BUT IT WOULD BE LUDICROUS IF THEY TALKED TO EACH OTHER ABOUT GENERAL STUFF RIGHT? I MEAN, EWW SHE'S A GIRL AND HE'S A GUY. O_O

Meanwhile...

Bethany likes the color orange. She likes to eat ramen. She hates sports. Her favorite thing to do is watch a good romance movie on a Saturday night, or to go to prom in the most beautiful pink dress she can find.

Lillian likes the color puce. She loves to play soccer. She hates wearing dresses and skirts and all the stuff she considers too 'prissy'. She loves nothing more than finding a pair of jeans that fit her awesomely.

Oh but they're both girls so I'm sure they'd get along much better than Jane and Joey would!

Then we throw in bathrooms into the mix, and it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that physically, segregation doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It comes down to "Why do we care if a guy and a girl are using the same bathroom?" as well as "There are more genders on the spectrum than just male and female". Then it goes to "Well girls like to talk about girl stuff and guys use profanity and stuff in their bathrooms"... I really don't get why the bathroom needs to be the social gathering place - but if it is... Why do discussions need to be gender/sex segregated?

[Guest i is Sam :-)]

Yeah, if guys wanna be vulgar kick them out and let them pee themselves.

We've had this problem before, at least in britain. With baby changing.

It used to be in the women's bathroom, then then if a father was out with his child, or (heaven forbid) he was a single father, he couldn't go in to use baby changing. It's still occasionally a problem, but in some places now they'd added baby changing to the gents, in some places, there is an extra room specifically for baby chaning, and very often it's now in the disabled toilet.

We still have another problem often tho, if a mother is out with her 6 year old son, and he needs the bathroom, she either takes him into the ladies, or again can sometimes use the disabled but not everywhere has a seperate diabled toilet, sometimes it's one inside the ladies and one inside the gents. And again it happes the same with father's a daughters.

So this is a situation where unisex bathrooms would make things much easier.

Probably the ideal solution would be a big unisex bathroom, and then a couple of small, totally segregated ones for disabled, or for men or women who have a specific problem with with unisex toilets. So pretty much the opposite of now.

Also if women want to do their makeup and gossip etc. why not split the unisex up into an area with just the stalls, and put the sinks in a powder room area, with mirrors, work surface etc.

[Guest Anna_Banana]

I think you are being a little bit unreasonable with this. Granted, if every location were owned by a multi-billion dollar company, it would be easy to install a men's, women's, and unisex bathroom. But all places have to conform to a bathroom standard, and not all of those places can afford to go all out. For instance, my local Wal-Mart has luxurious, spacious bathroom with all the amenities you'd ever need. My local mall, on the other hand, gives you cramped stalls and is just barely handicap accessible.

Besides that, when passing a law, said law has to have some kind of enforceability. If everyone under the transgender umbrella could use any bathroom, this would lead to potential problems. Not all trans people are legitimately trans. There are some people (we call them transvestites) who try to use the opposite sex's bathroom for sexual pleasure. These people are few, but they exist. It's best for legal purposes to have only diagnosed transgendered people use the bathrooms. But of course this doesn't mean you have to get your letter out every time. You and I both know that there isn't a guard stationed outside of the restrooms checking who enters. With that being said, if you pass well enough, you could enter uninhibited. It's important people feel comfortable using the restroom. I know that when certain men are in the men's room, I can't go to the bathroom. I'm put off by their vulgarity and inexcusable behavior. Yet its commonplace and acceptable.

.Anna