Diethylstilboestrol

[Guest]

Interesting information indeed Hugh.

As Megan is wondering, I'm wondering if there is a recent increase in the FTM population in comparison to those of us who are calendar challenged current MTF's?

Thank you both for the food for thought.

Huggs,

Joann

[Guest HughE]

Hi Hugh,

I don't believe that Spironolactone is a progestin.

Actually it is, at least according to its wikipedia article. It's primary effect is to block mineralocorticoid receptors, but spironolactone also blocks androgen receptors (it's an antiandrogen) and is a progesterone receptor agonist too (a progestin). The progestogenic effect is relatively weak, but it is there, and probably contributes to spironolactone's ability to suppress testosterone. That's the thing about these artificial hormones, they tend to be quite promiscuous in what they do!

Hugh

[Guest HughE]

Not about blaming for me but understanding. The official DES site last said 41 percent of those exposed have some degree of intersexed which can have additional health repercussions. That is the rate among DES babies who have been genetically tested so far. They are just now doing some of the research and the more they do the worse it is.

And with at least a 40 fold increase of cancer risk not only for me but my descendants then that is not about blaming my TS either but a genuine need to know. DES genetic changes have been proven to be passed down as far as the 3rd generation so far.

I have had nearly well over a dozens PAPs in my life with consequent scares because not one was testable. Classic DES symptom. I need to know because of that so I can clue my Dr in and quit wasting money on tests that will never work on me.

DES has been scientifically proven to cause transgebder in the other mamals species tested but there is not considered a large enough population of transgendered people to test humans. And according to the official sites I read that and that alone is why it is not officially recognized as causing TS and TG in humans.

I don't care what caused my TS but I do care about what my actual genetic damage or changes may be and about the increasing number of conditions that are being found to be either caused or impacted by DES.

We do need to identify what DES has done because there are an estimated 1 million Americans who are intersexed because of it by conservative estimates-many unknown even to themselves-it is by the way standard medical procedure not to reveal to an intersexed individual who had surgical intervention unless they know. Those one million Americans are very likely to have genetic damage that will pass down to any children they may have-and in many intersexed conditions having children I possible although usually like myself only when the individual goes on a hormone like the old birth control pills. Or fertility treatments

Also if I can get the gentetic testing and prove that I am intersexed-and there are literally dozens of indications-then all treatment is covered by Medicare. OrMedicade-or insurance. It can make a real difference in what treatment someone is able to get.

Johnny

I've spent a good part of the last two years trying to find out as much as I can about DES sons, and what I've seen is completely in accord with what Johnny said back in May 2012. Somewhere between 2 and 3 million DES sons were born worldwide over the 3 decades from 1940 to 1971, and a very high percentage of them appear to have physical intersex conditions (i.e. intersex-related genital abnormalities such as undescended testes, hypospadias or micropenis), along with quite a few other problems including infertility/reduced fertility, endocrine problems and chronically low testosterone. There's a whole range of psychological problems DES sons seem to experience too, including depression, ADHD, extreme shyness and social difficulties as a teenager, as well as gender dysphoria. A very high percentage of the DES sons I've had dealings with or whose personal stories I've read seem to have been affected in similar ways.

I think the underlying cause of most of these effects is actually suppression of testosterone production rather than the estrogenic effects of the DES itself. Throughout the treatment period, the doses of DES that were being used for miscarriage prevention were more than 3mg per day (the dose required to fully chemically castrate an adult man). I think a typical DES son probably had their testosterone production completely shut down throughout the second and third trimester, with the result that their brain predominantly developed as female instead of male - and that's the underlying cause of the psychological problems and gender dysphoria (and probably the problems with hormone regulation later in life too).

Even if no follow up studies of older DES sons were ever carried out, there's no way anyone looking at how DES sons have been affected in any depth could have failed to spot the high incidence of genital abnormalities. In other words there's been a whopping cover up, presumably involving whoever in government was tasked with looking at the aftermath of the DES disaster, along with senior people in the pharmaceutical industry and medical fraternity who were facing a mountain of lawsuits, bankruptcy and probably jail time too if the truth ever got out.

It's quite scary when you think about it, because if a disaster on that scale can be covered up so completely, what other skeletons are lurking in the closet? How much confidence can we have in the safety of medicines in general? Most importantly, perhaps you can now see why I think there's legitimate cause for concern about current treatments that involve the use of artificial sex hormones during pregnancy, and that they might be the real reason why there's suddenly so many gender variant people all over the place?

[Guest HughE]

If anyone's interested, I've just had an article published in Frock magazine about the link between prenatal exposure to artificial hormones such as DES, and gender variance later in life:
http://frockmagazine.com/frock/#/52/

[Guest Opal]

Hugh, thank you for sharing this, and bringing this thread back to life. I believe that the chances were really good that I was exposed to DES prior to birth. My mom was 41, my dad badly wanted to have a son and was 39. After having me, my mom did have a miscarriage. I just recently learned from my brother (who was 18 when I was born) that our mom had miscarried once or twice prior to having me.

I cannot prove that I am a DES son, but I doubt that anyone could prove that I am not. I guess that it really does not change anything, but one would like to know.

Hugs,

Opal

[Guest HughE]

Hi Opal and thanks for taking the time to read my article!

Unfortunately, most people who are wondering whether they're DES-exposed are in the situation you're in, with no way of finding out for sure. Even assuming their parents are still alive, studies in countries where there is good medical record-keeping show that a mother's recollection of what medication she was given during a pregnancy decades earlier usually isn't very good - most mothers tend to drastically underestimate how much medication they were given. DES was dispensed under many different names, and apart from being used for miscarriage prevention was also a component of many pregnancy vitamin formulations. There are DES sons I've chatted to online who fully identify as women, and their only exposure was pregnancy vitamins.

Here's a list of symtoms that commonly seem to be associated with DES exposure (note that most of these are things that can occur with other kinds of intersex condition too):

Born between 1940 and 1971 (US) or 1980 (elsewhere)

Undescended testicles

Micropenis - a fully formed but considerably shorter than normal penis

Hypospadias

Epidiymal cysts of the testicles (these are apparently Mullerian remnants - fragments of female tissue that would have been absorbed in normal male development)

Vestigial female organs or organ remnants

Intersexed genitals similar to grade 3 PAIS

Other genital abnormalities

Feminine-looking facial features, developing a body structure that's more like the female members of your family than the male ones

Other symptoms of low testosterone such as a lack of body hair, gynecomastica and an inability to build upper body muscle

Very shy, socially passive behaviour as a teenager

Difficulty forming friendships with boys, having a special affinity with girls

Being bullied a lot; having an inability to fight

Having no interest in sport

People tending to assume you're gay; lots of men being attracted to you

Identifying as a woman, or part of you identifying as a woman while part identifies as a man

Depression

ADHD

Other seemingly non gender related psychological problems

[Guest Opal]

Hugh, thank you for posting and your work in researching the subject! I had a nurse once at a Health Fair exclaim that she had never before seen a male with such little upper body strength!

[Guest N. Jane]

What is the source of this information HughE? I am curious because that list really blew me away by how much applied to me!

Undescended testicles, Micropenis, Vestigial female organs or organ remnants, Feminine-looking facial features, developing a body structure that's more like the female, Other symptoms of low testosterone such as a lack of body hair, gynecomastica, Very shy, socially passive behaviour as a teenager, Difficulty forming friendships with boys, having a special affinity with girls, Being bullied a lot; having an inability to fight, Having no interest in sport, People tending to assume you're gay; lots of men being attracted to you, Identifying as a woman, identifying as a woman

That's an awfully long list to simply be coincidence!

[Guest HughE]

Mostly it came from what I saw last year in a private online DES sons group that was set up back in 2000 as part of a research project into DES as a cause of transgender. There were several hundred DES sons participating in the group during the time the research project was active (from about 2001 to 2004). Last year I went through looking at the introductory messages many people had posted on joining the group, trying to get a feel for how the typical DES son had been affected. You see the same things cropping up again and again (basically the things I've put in that list). I also did a fair bit of google searching of publicly accessible forums (e.g. bodieslikeours, crossdressers.com, susans.org and this one), looking for any threads about DES and its effects. That confirmed what I'd been reading in the DES sons group.

Some of it is based on on how I've been affected too. I seem to have many of the same problems that DES sons commonly experience, e.g. feminine appearance, shyness and social difficulties as a teenager (actually, the 2nd and 3rd parts of the list come straight out of my teens and 20s!). The difference is that my particular genital abnormality is on the less severe end of the spectrum, and only part of me identifies as a woman (and I get the impression that overall, more of my psychology is male than is the case for most gender variant DES sons).

[Guest]

Mostly it came from what I saw last year in a private online DES sons group that was set up back in 2000 as part of a research project into DES as a cause of transgender. There were several hundred DES sons participating in the group during the time the research project was active (from about 2001 to 2004). Last year I went through looking at the introductory messages many people had posted on joining the group, trying to get a feel for how the typical DES son had been affected. You see the same things cropping up again and again (basically the things I've put in that list). I also did a fair bit of google searching of publicly accessible forums (e.g. bodieslikeours, crossdressers.com, susans.org and this one), looking for any threads about DES and its effects. That confirmed what I'd been reading in the DES sons group.

Some of it is based on on how I've been affected too. I seem to have many of the same problems that DES sons commonly experience, e.g. feminine appearance, shyness and social difficulties as a teenager (actually, the 2nd and 3rd parts of the list come straight out of my teens and 20s!). The difference is that my particular genital abnormality is on the less severe end of the spectrum, and only part of me identifies as a woman (and I get the impression that overall, more of my psychology is male than is the case for most gender variant DES sons).

OK now you have me wondering about me. Judging from the high school picture in my Jody's Pictures album, how masculine do people think I looked. I can't really tell with jaded eyes. Hug. Jody

[Guest LizMarie]

The one photo I see, Jody, doesn't really show enough you to judge aside from the face. *hugs*

[Guest HughE]

If anyone's interested, I've had an article about the link between prenatal exposure to synthetic hormones and transsexuality published on p4 of the current issue of DES Action USA's Voice magazine (issue 139, Winter 2014). Although the magazine itself is available to members only, here's a copy and paste of what I wrote:

Letter to the Editor

Prenatal Hormone Exposure and Gender

I was born in New Zealand and I’m currently based in London UK. For as long as I can remember I’ve had a kind of partially feminine gender identity, but until recently never consciously acknowledged it. Then, a couple of years ago I realised that my body language, my pattern of arousal and orgasm, and my instinctive social behaviour are all very much more like what you’d typically see in a woman rather than a man - and that I have a body that’s a bit like a cross between a man’s and a woman’s too!

Through research I’ve learned this is known as a "eunuchoid habitus", and is something seen in intersex cases. I have a feminine appearance with long, slender arms and legs and a female leg to trunk ratio, described as long legs with a comparatively short upper body. Overall I look quite different from the males in my family and a lot more like my mother and sisters.

In short, I’m not just psychologically intersexed because something unusual seems to have happened to my physical development too. But what?

The sex-determining chromosome, the Y chromosome, tells our undifferentiated gonads to turn into testicles (without it they'll turn into ovaries instead). All the genetic blueprints for actually building a male or female body are located elsewhere in your genome though, so everyone has the full set of instructions for both sexes.

Ordinarily this system works quite well and you'll develop as one sex throughout the pregnancy But as I now understand it, certain conditions can cause a male foetus to underproduce (or a female foetus to overproduce) testosterone causing the developing body to follow a mixture of male and female instructions.

With most intersex conditions, the abnormal hormone situation tends to be there throughout the pregnancy. In my case, there seem to have been normal male levels of testosterone to start with and towards the end of the pregnancy too, but a limited period of very low testosterone in the middle. It didn’t seem to match any conventional intersex scenario that I could find.

Then I read a passage in Brain Sex: The Real Difference Between Men and Women, by Anne Moir and David Jessel describing a pattern of behaviour commonly shown by teenage boys who were prenatally exposed to the artificial estrogen DES. The boys were described as typically shy, socially withdrawn, lacked self esteem, were regarded as sissies, bullied, ostracised by their peers, had no ability to fight back when attacked and no interest in sport. The authors depicted it as " feminized behaviour" and it matched my teenage years so closely it could have come straight out of my school report! That got me looking at a chemical exposure of some kind as the explanation for what had happened to me.

DES, and artificial female hormones in general are good at suppressing testosterone production in adult men. Why wouldn’t they have the same effect on a male foetus? The dose of DES required to completely stop testosterone production in prostate cancer patients is 3mg per day; the starting dose for miscarriage prevention was 5mg per day.

DES Sons have the emotionally comforting knowledge that what happened to them was done to prevent miscarriage because their mothers desperately wanted and loved them. But that’s not my circumstance. There was no medical reason for my mother to have been given DES and in fact, I suspect she most likely took an overdose of contraceptive pills in a failed attempt to end the pregnancy. As I see it, that could have severely disrupted my developing endocrine system so for a few weeks testoterone levels were limited. It’s not something I’m going to be able to prove but for a variety of reasons I’m fairly sure that’s what happened.

Since coming to that realization I’ve been trying to learn as much as possible about prental hormonal disruption and I feel a kindred spirit with the DES Sons I’ve connected with. Many seem to share similarities with me, including genital abnormalities, feminized behavior as teenagers, endocrine issues and gender variance. Several have also mentioned having a feminine appearance, leading me to speculate that both brain development and physical appearance may be linked to prenatal hormonal exposures of varying kinds.

One thing I’ve noticed, though, is that many of the gender variant DES Sons I’ve come in contact with seem to be more psychologicaly female than I am, and more fully identify as women than I do. Could DES use have resulted in more male to female transexuality than would have otherwise occurred in the population? I certainly wonder.This also brings forward the importance of dose and timing in prenatal exposures. While, by my calculations, I had a brief exposure to a high level of synthetic hormones, DES Sons were exposed throughout much of their development in the womb.

With the growing understanding of damage caused by DES and the fact that it started serious investigation of endocrine disruption issues, I’m writing in thanks that DES sparked this interest even though sadly, it did so much harm. But where would we be today if the DES link to health issues had never been made?

I thank researchers for uncovering truths we already know and hope they continue their studies not only into DES but also into other hormones that could be having similar effects. My situation raised questions for me and I believe the answer is in what happened before I was born. While not a DES Son I feel a kindred spirit with gender variance.

I worry now that drugs still currently in use could continue wreaking havoc in the name of doing good. Pregnant women please be careful with the exposures allowed for your unborn children. We don’t know all there is to know about their safety, especially those that could create hormonal imbalances before birth.

Sincerely,

Hugh Easton

[Guest thevaliantx]

My first cousin is FtM (very successfully I might add), and of course there is moi

[Guest]

As always.

Thank you for the wonderful update Hugh.

Huggs,

Joann