The "F" Word and What it means to You

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Hi All,

I am wondering how do people here on LP feel about Feminism and Feminists ( as a group). I would like to approach this topic keeping in mind that Feminists may be female, male or gender variant. I am most interested to hear people's perspectives of how Feminism has effected (and continues) to effect our culture. (And ... any visions for the future??)

For me .. the "F" in Feminism sometimes represents "Flawed" or worse ... "Flailing" or even "Frustrated" but still .. for me it does not mean "Failed." For the future, I would like it to represent "Forward Thinking" "Friendly to All" and perhaps eventually have it become an "E" word ... simply an "EQUALITY" Movement.

Mostly, I am proud to be a Feminist and although we have far to go ... I do think we have come a long way and have made some significant changes that are of benefit to all people. Overall, I feel that the world is a better place because of Feminism.

Hugs,

Juniper Blue

[Guest agfrommd]

I feel we owe a lot to feminists They changed the world so that it offered more freedom, more choices. I live through it all. I saw it happen. Whenever you tell someone "you can't do this because of how you were born" you're denying yourself and the world the benefits of someone who follows their true calling. Feminists challenged this message and the world is richer because of it.

I hate the way it's gotten to be a negative, and how the feminist and transgender communities seem to be at odds. It boils my tea to see women who hold jobs that feminists made it possible for them to hold declare that they could never be a feminist.

All that being said, I think that out of the feminist movement came a certain hostility toward men that damaged their cause. I agree with Juniper that an equality movement would go further than a feminist movement. When men and women are pitted on opposite sides of the issue (instead of recognizing that gender equality benefits all of us, male, female and neither) it sets the equality movement back.

A woman where I work has a plaque that says "They've invented something that does the job of ten men. It's called a woman." Isn't that insulting?

[Charlize]

I always rooted for the women's teams as they played the boys. I always joined the women's marches to Washington. I see things changing over my 64 years but the change is slow. As i become a woman i wish the attitude of men would change faster but its hard to give up power. I certainly feel the loss as i move about as a woman.

Hugs, Charlie

[Guest Alder]

I hate to say.... but the term feminist pretty much envolks negative feelings in me.... Only due to the extremists... I often just feel that those who seek actual fair rights and treatment are humanist... beingists?(as not every being on this earth identifies as being human.) equalist, there we go. The word feminist brings to mind the "fem-cup cake's" sadly and misandry filled persons. I know logically that not everyone who bears the title feminist believes such things and I often feel extremely guilty for my mind instantly jumping to the picture of some grizzly female with a flat butt spouting off their hate of men.. Even more so that many of my very dear friends and family consider themselves to be feminists...

I'm a being who agree's on equal rights, no matter sex, gender, expression, sexuality, beliefs, religion, hair colour, heritage, nationality, rich, poor, in between, human, cyborg, alien, cat, dog, what have you.... so when one places a specific groups label(?) to a movement on equality.... it kind of causes a little twitch I guess...

[Guest aleon515]

I consider myself a feminist and really was (at one time at least) involved in what was then the Women's Liberation Movement". It's maybe the only feeling of being a female that I really have.

--Jay Jay

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Very cool responses! Thanks everyone .... and agformmd .Your Quote: A woman where I work has a plaque that says "They've invented something that does the job of ten men. It's called a woman." Isn't that insulting? Yes .. this is the type of thing that makes me cringe ... this type of thing builds walls not bridges.

[KieranD]

I think that a lot of feminists, and a lot of the attitudes promoted by mainstream feminism are harmful. I think that feminism should cover intersectionality and work on creating general liberation for people of all genders as opposed to specifically "patriarchy smashing." Most of the feminists I've seen and know about are very hateful towards trans people. Most are white middle/upper-middle class able bodied straight (or political lesbians) cisgender college educated etc which just...it doesn't really do anything. There's no emphasis of meeting the needs of folks that are low income, trans, queer, disabled (you get the idea). For example, modern feminists that I know of are mostly against legalizing prostitution beause they think women shouldn't be doing that line of work while I believe all the folks who are sex workers should be given the same basic safety (especially with their health) that we get at our jobs.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Good points Kieran .. I have similar feelings about protecting sex workers.

To the point ... For those that choose this profession of sex work ... I feel that they have human rights equal to anyone's and that they should be safe. The legalization of sex work could be one step in promoting health and safety.

[KieranD]

Good points Kieran .. I have similar feelings about protecting sex workers.

To the point ... For those that choose this profession of sex work ... I feel that they have human rights equal to anyone's and that they should be safe. The legalization of sex work could be one step in promoting health and safety.

Yea, plus it would create accountability for folks who are sexually abusive towards sex workers as sex workers are more likely to be killed or sexually abused. I support unionizing sex workers (I think Sasha Grey did an awesome "Fake" interview on funny or die about it). Plus, it does over lap with trans issues as trans people resort to sex work out of desperation (although at time it might be a want).

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Yes ... agreed Kieran ... also by legalizing the profession of sex work it will be easier for law enforcement to focus on issues like human trafficking, child abuse and the exploitation of people who are forced into sex work non-consensually as in the case of run-away, teens over 18, people living with domestic violence and drug addiction

(situations where coercion may be a major factor.) It would be my hope that the workers too may have better work environments, not only in the issue of safety but in that they might receive a fair wage and have opportunities out of the profession. For instance, a friend of mine worked as a dancer and earned her Master's Degree in psychology. She now works with troubled youth. Had things not gone "just right" ... and had she gotten into sex work, her story may not have ended so happily.

[Guest agfrommd]

So how did it happen? How did feminism pick up such a negative connotation. When were did they start being seen as dried up prudes opposed to sex work, exotic dancing, beauty contests, etc.?

In my view, having lived through the women's movement, I think its true heiresses are the brave young women going on "very *friendly* person walks" and seeking to widen the range of behaviors considered proper for a woman rather than narrow it.

[KieranD]

Well, in the 70s the gay rights movement dropped trans people from their bill because trans folks were ruining it for them (whatevs) as white gender normative gay and lesbian folks. Then in the 80s you had feminists like Janice Raymond who published anti-transsexual books. Her and others publicly outed transsexual women (many who were stealth). She and other second wave feminists believe prostitution to be a form of sexual abuse against women and one of the worst forms of gender inequality. You've also got in there Julie Bindel who did generally the same thing and wrote about how SRS is genital mutilation, who is also an anti-prostitution feminist. Julie Bindel also promoted the idea that women should all identify as lesbians.

[Guest aleon515]

So how did it happen? How did feminism pick up such a negative connotation. When were did they start being seen as dried up prudes opposed to sex work, exotic dancing, beauty contests, etc.?

In my view, having lived through the women's movement, I think its true heiresses are the brave young women going on "very *friendly* person walks" and seeking to widen the range of behaviors considered proper for a woman rather than narrow it.

I think actually it was used as a weapon by the opposition. If you can make your opponent look silly, not really serious, having character flaws, being humorless, etc. etc. you can delegitimize them.

--Jay Jay

[Guest agfrommd]

I think actually it was used as a weapon by the opposition. If you can make your opponent look silly, not really serious, having character flaws, being humorless, etc. etc. you can delegitimize them.

--Jay Jay

Very perceptive, Jay Jay.

[Guest aleon515]

Thanks AG.

Btw, I found some very virulently anti-trans* stuff from a feminist. Not sure where exactly but it wasn't so much for mtfs. I think actually she might have liked them. It was more for ftms. She felt that with increased nos. of them (not sure that ftm has *actually* increased-- but maybe people who are out, yes) but anyway, she felt they were all these people who were not comfortable with their femininity due to messages from society and families. I found it a little odd.

--Jay Jay

[Guest agfrommd]

Btw, I found some very virulently anti-trans* stuff from a feminist. Not sure where exactly but it wasn't so much for mtfs. I think actually she might have liked them. It was more for ftms. She felt that with increased nos. of them (not sure that ftm has *actually* increased-- but maybe people who are out, yes) but anyway, she felt they were all these people who were not comfortable with their femininity due to messages from society and families. I found it a little odd.

--Jay Jay

So many people don't get being transgendered. Don't get that it's about dysphoria and carrying around the wrong body. People just think TGs transition because they wake up one day and decided they'll trying being a man from now on.

That's what I thought until I started listening to the stories told by people who had transitioned and why they did it.

[KieranD]

Thanks AG.

Btw, I found some very virulently anti-trans* stuff from a feminist. Not sure where exactly but it wasn't so much for mtfs. I think actually she might have liked them. It was more for ftms. She felt that with increased nos. of them (not sure that ftm has *actually* increased-- but maybe people who are out, yes) but anyway, she felt they were all these people who were not comfortable with their femininity due to messages from society and families. I found it a little odd.

--Jay Jay

That would be dirt. She hates trans women too but thinks of trans men as butch women who couldn't handle being butch. She also finds pictures of trans men and outs a lot of guys by posting their pix on her blog. She believes that there will soon be no more butch lesbians because they all want to transition instead.

Really there's more feminists that hate trans women than trans men.

[Guest aleon515]

(sorry re: quoting. I had to do this as I had a quoting error that wouldn't let me post.)

> That would be dirt. She hates trans women too but thinks of trans men as butch women who couldn't handle being butch. She also finds pictures of trans men and outs a lot of guys by posting their pix on her blog. She believes that there will soon be no more butch lesbians because they all want to transition instead.

>Really there's more feminists that hate trans women than trans men.

Well haters are haters I suppose.

Yeah that's the one. I am probably somewhere on the transmasculine spectrum (or maybe not), but anyway, I hadn't start figuring this out to long when I ran into her blog. I felt it really really confusing. I realize now that there is so much more to it, than any kind of messages you get or any kind of social pressures. My parents were if anything *very* liberal and understanding for their time on gender.

A ridiculous concept that there would be no more butches due to trans. I believe though that is still more common than they used to think.

I think that's evil, outing people like this. Just vicious that's all. Even if that's what she believes.

--Jay Jay

[Guest Annabelle Anders]

I'd say that is an accurate description of a "femi-cup cake", I know it's generally used as an insult for over-bearing women, but that seems really on point.

She set standards for what it meant to be on the "good side"

She targets groups of people and outs them as being lesser, weaker, or against "us".

Rallies propaganda to persuade others into believing it.

She deserves the title, for knowingly doing all of this.

On a slightly back-tracking subject....

I think the main difference between the feminists of old, and what we are left with, are those who could figure out the digital age. No offense to any of the older generations (if you're reading this, you probably don't have issues using the computer) but those with the best points, were no longer around and active when the void that is what the internet turned into first arrived. We then let in the younger generations to reach the masses. They would interpret what the older, wiser crowd would shout from the soap box, then type in their own feelings and send it to the world.

Now we (as a whole) lack interest in the soapbox; so our newest generations scour the internet and then tweet and retweet their feelings on it. (don't you just love how we boil our information down to 140 characters or less?)

It's not that the feminists are getting dumber; it's the natural effect of playing telephone, where the information, the passion, and the message gets watered down with each coming translation; except for the possibility that coming generations won't know what a "phone" is (iPhone I think will be the next "Q-tip")

But I digress...

Equality is where it's at.

_A

[Guest aleon515]

I'm sure she represents a very very small portion of the butch population. I found other butch people to be sympathetic.

I think butch might be on the trans* spectrum (if you think about it that way) in some way or other.

--Jay Jay

[Guest agfrommd]

It's not that the feminists are getting dumber; it's the natural effect of playing telephone, where the information, the passion, and the message gets watered down with each coming translation

Part of the issue is that the threat is past. When the women's movement started, there were all sorts of things women weren't allowed to do. No one batted an eyelash at sexual harassment, equal pay was dismissed as a silly notion, etc. Modern women don't feel threatened. Oh, we get unhappy about statistics, 70 cents on the dollar when compared to male wages, but in day to day life, the only noticeable inequality seems to be the ones that women encourage, staying home & taking care of the children, etc.

No woman of childbearing age even remembers the time in America when women were forced by the law to carry their pregnancies to term, so now a lot of them are thinking that wouldn't be so bad and supporting candidates who pledge to work to bring those days back.

[KieranD]

It's not that the feminists are getting dumber; it's the natural effect of playing telephone, where the information, the passion, and the message gets watered down with each coming translation

Part of the issue is that the threat is past. When the women's movement started, there were all sorts of things women weren't allowed to do. No one batted an eyelash at sexual harassment, equal pay was dismissed as a silly notion, etc. Modern women don't feel threatened. Oh, we get unhappy about statistics, 70 cents on the dollar when compared to male wages, but in day to day life, the only noticeable inequality seems to be the ones that women encourage, staying home & taking care of the children, etc.

No woman of childbearing age even remembers the time in America when women were forced by the law to carry their pregnancies to term, so now a lot of them are thinking that wouldn't be so bad and supporting candidates who pledge to work to bring those days back.

Um...the 70 cents to a dollar is actually 70 cents for a white cisgender woman to $1 for a white cisgender man. I believe if you're a woman of color it's more like 50 cents to a white cisgender man's dollar, and 25 cents for a trans woman of color compared to a white cisgender man.

And in many places there are so few locations to get abortions where it is next to impossible to get one.

[Guest Jo-I-Dunno]

As with any group or movement, it's the loud, intense, annoying ones that attract the most attention. I think that when feminism is working and feminists are doing things right, no one notices. It's a slow, gradual process. Don't preach, just lead by example. When someone asks about feminism, I'm more than happy to say I consider myself a feminist, but I think it's detrimental to shove that in anyone's face who doesn't want anything to do with it. That's also why I'm androgynous in a subtle way, with the intent to look young and healthy, not to freak anybody out.

Feminism in media? In my opinion, The best feminist characters and stories are the ones which don't make a point of it. If a female character doesn't follow a feminine stereotype, it shouldn't be part of the story that they're rising above it; it should just be a fact of their character that's not even noted as odd.

Take, for example, Haruhi in Ouran High School Host Club. The whole premise of the story has her "disguised" as a boy while at school, but the situation is handled perfectly. All she does is dress in a boy's uniform; she doesn't change her personality or anything. She's doing it for practical reasons, doesn't mind having to be a boy, but any time it seems like her secret's going to be revealed, that doesn't worry her either. All the other girls just think she's a really cute boy and find her super-attractive. She freely switches to a female role outside of school, and that doesn't bother any of her friends. There is one boy who constantly notes how cute she is or would be if she dressed like a girl, and he feels the need to protect her, but the point is he's foolish for feeling that way. Haruhi doesn't feel the need to stand up to him or anything, she just doesn't care or really even seem to notice. And in the series conclusion, it's really her who saves him.

And there's a new cartoon on Nickelodean right now called The Legend of Korra which I encourage everyone to watch. It's about a girl who's the current reincarnation of the Avatar, a sort of spiritual leader / warrior with the ability to manipulate "all four elements". She's simply attractive in every way a person can be attractive. She's powerful, athletic, muscular, and competitive, yet gorgeous and has a child-like energy and wonder about her. There's absolutely no sense that she's rising above some female stereotype. When one of the male character is noting why she's attractive, he lists both her masculine and feminine traits. And yet, when she wants to express her attraction to a male character, she has reservations, but none of them have to do with her feeling vulnerable or anything stupid like that.

Feminism is working and continues today. Things are constantly getting better, we just don't have big milestones to mark it with. We only notice the occasional failure. As a side note, I feel the same way about politics. In the US, we focus on the scandals and hot topics, yet people forget the simple fact that, for the most part, we're not starving, we can leave our homes without fear of being kidnapped or murdered or having anything stolen while we're gone, we have indoor plumbing and consistent electricity, and both transportation and telecommunication systems which connect us all.

Similarly, there's an LGBT health clinic I'm receiving hormone treatment from, I felt safe enough to tell my parents I'm trans without fear of violence or being disowned or hated, and this website exists. I thank feminism for those things.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Wow.

I just looked up "Dirt's" blog to see what this was all about ... all I can say is that I feel sick to my stomach. What a disturbing blog . What a troubled person. It is very twisted that she thinks that she is acting as a feminist.

When I read her posts .. the few that I could handle .. I heard a lot of anger and hate but I also heard a lot of fear. Fear is the root of this type of hatred.

This causes me to feel very very sad .. for her .. for us ... it's just very sad. I hope that people know that this is not the voice of true feminism ... and we must work hard to keep it from becoming so.

There is a Buddhist saying: Hatred shall Never cease by Hatred .. Hatred can only cease by Love.

Hugs to ALL,

JB

[Guest aleon515]

I was involved in feminism for years and years (not currently). I know some people would think otherwise, but I didn't run into hatred at all (at least not that I experienced anyway). I didn't run into much dislike of men or any other things I see as stereotyped. I think she is not at all any representative. There are thousands of people involved in one way or another. So there are bound to be haters just like there are anywhere else.

Sorry you ran into this. It's vicious stuff at least you were kind of forewarned.

--Jay Jay