Any Thoughts? Needing Some Help Lol

[Guest Chrysee]

I find myself questioning everything about myself...

I was born a biological female and as I was growing up I always felt male...

But lately I been wanting to drop the male label...

I been feeling both at times and then randomly I feel neither...

Like I just feel like a person but like I'm not *anything*...

But for the most part I feel both...

At one point I was identifying as FTM Andro...

Which I guess wouldn't really make sense to some??

Oh well

Anyways, I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this...?

I'm new. I entered the playground as 'transgender', and being new thought that said it all. As I began to learn (both through what I read here and what I was finding in myself) I realized that I was fed-up with being masculine but would not be satisfied being totally feminine (although I prefer. . .okay, actually love being feminine!) That's when I read about adros and found the term 'genderqueer.'

Being both ties in with my spiritual path. I won't go into that here, but will say that though my name is Chrysalis, and I go by Chrysee, I have recently assumed the nickname Unity. That sums up what I believe myself to be.

Of course that could change tomorrow, so stay tuned.

[Guest HashBrown]

I'm so behind on my forum-checking.

The flip-flopping between genders sounds pretty much like my experience. Sometimes I feel like a female; sometimes a male. More often, I'm either a masculine female or a very feminine male. For the last year or so, I started to wonder if I was a FTM; other times I feel like a MTF who woke up in a female body and realized that hey, this isn't exactly right for me, either.

So usually I spend my time rolling around in the grey middle area of the binary, but sometimes I'll slide to either extreme end.

When I have to describe "what I am", I call myself a gender-fluid androgyne. I'm an androgyne. Whose gender moves fluidly around the spectrum. That's the least confusing term/description I could come up with--though I'm not sure that it's exactly easy to understand. Oh well. =)

I totally forgot about this thread

It makes sense to me. I think.

I'm new. I entered the playground as 'transgender', and being new thought that said it all. As I began to learn (both through what I read here and what I was finding in myself) I realized that I was fed-up with being masculine but would not be satisfied being totally feminine (although I prefer. . .okay, actually love being feminine!) That's when I read about adros and found the term 'genderqueer.'

Being both ties in with my spiritual path. I won't go into that here, but will say that though my name is Chrysalis, and I go by Chrysee, I have recently assumed the nickname Unity. That sums up what I believe myself to be.

Of course that could change tomorrow, so stay tuned.

That's good that you have found yourself

[Guest Chrysee]

I totally forgot about this thread

It makes sense to me. I think.

That's good that you have found yourself

Yes, and always in the last place you look.

Thanks

[Guest symempathy]

Is it possible that an androgyne desires a female's body?

Since I grew up, although I have felt more connected to my feminine side, I don't really think about difference between male and female. I was raised as a man like any Vietnamese child. However, I never differentiate two genders. I don't pick side or consider one gender superior to the other. I do feel more and more feminine when I get older, but the perception of what makes someone a man or a woman is still ambiguous. I'm 25 years old, and I still can't see the difference, and I don't care about the difference.

My behavior is definitely more feminine by nature. I feel comfortable with it, but I don't feel comfortable expressing it in a male's body. I don't hate my body, but I feel like it's a barrier for my gender expression. I want a female's body for the sake of my feminine personality and expression. I don't have a clear conception of male or female although I know what makes someone masculine or feminine because I am feminine.

Is my feeling normal?

[Guest Chrysee]

Is it possible that an androgyne desires a female's body?

Since I grew up, although I have felt more connected to my feminine side, I don't really think about difference between male and female. I was raised as a man like any Vietnamese child. However, I never differentiate two genders. I don't pick side or consider one gender superior to the other. I do feel more and more feminine when I get older, but the perception of what makes someone a man or a woman is still ambiguous. I'm 25 years old, and I still can't see the difference, and I don't care about the difference.

My behavior is definitely more feminine by nature. I feel comfortable with it, but I don't feel comfortable expressing it in a male's body. I don't hate my body, but I feel like it's a barrier for my gender expression. I want a female's body for the sake of my feminine personality and expression. I don't have a clear conception of male or female although I know what makes someone masculine or feminine because I am feminine.

Is my feeling normal?

My God can I relate to that.

I grew up two halves sharing the whole. The two sides of me took turns driving. When I was little, it took a while for me to realize that I could not behave like that and get away with it among friends and family. It was the 'might makes right' post WWII America (who conveniently forgot all about Korea, by the way!) I was part of the first generation to grow up in front of a television, watching a black & white world portrayed on a black & white screen. Think of the culture of the times: t.v. was packed with Westerns and war movies. On Saturday mornings, Moe walloped Larry & Curly with hammers and wrenches and took charge. Bluto picked on Popeye to win the affection of Olive Oyl, until Popeye ate his spinach and then beat the crap out of Bluto. And a bowl of Apple Jacks kept bullies away. (And did anyone wonder if bullies were eating the stuff? I mean, what then?)

Might made right! And as a male, I was to take my place in this. Well, when I was eighteen, I burned my draft card and went to college.

But a part of me longed to sling guns and fists. Then I'd wrap a towel around my middle getting out of the tub and surprise myself admiring my reflection in the full length mirror on the bathroom door. There I was, in a skirt! And a feeling would go through me like nothing I can describe. It was sort of like taking a warm soul shower.

Today, I am unwilling to evict the male side of me, but thrill at the feel of a skirt on my legs. I am growing a goatee, but on Saturday am going out to buy a magnifying mirror so that I can see to apply eye make-up.

I, too, want the feminine body. In fact, I am taking the State to court to fight for my insurance to pay for H.R.T. I don't know how this will sound, but my fondest wish is to watch the front of my blouse jiggle when I climb stairs.

I doubt this helps you much. I see that all I've done is joined in your confusion.

But thanks for letting me vent. And if you figure things out, drop me a line. Please?

[Guest symempathy]

My God can I relate to that.

I grew up two halves sharing the whole. The two sides of me took turns driving. When I was little, it took a while for me to realize that I could not behave like that and get away with it among friends and family. It was the 'might makes right' post WWII America (who conveniently forgot all about Korea, by the way!) I was part of the first generation to grow up in front of a television, watching a black & white world portrayed on a black & white screen. Think of the culture of the times: t.v. was packed with Westerns and war movies. On Saturday mornings, Moe walloped Larry & Curly with hammers and wrenches and took charge. Bluto picked on Popeye to win the affection of Olive Oyl, until Popeye ate his spinach and then beat the crap out of Bluto. And a bowl of Apple Jacks kept bullies away. (And did anyone wonder if bullies were eating the stuff? I mean, what then?)

Might made right! And as a male, I was to take my place in this. Well, when I was eighteen, I burned my draft card and went to college.

But a part of me longed to sling guns and fists. Then I'd wrap a towel around my middle getting out of the tub and surprise myself admiring my reflection in the full length mirror on the bathroom door. There I was, in a skirt! And a feeling would go through me like nothing I can describe. It was sort of like taking a warm soul shower.

Today, I am unwilling to evict the male side of me, but thrill at the feel of a skirt on my legs. I am growing a goatee, but on Saturday am going out to buy a magnifying mirror so that I can see to apply eye make-up.

I, too, want the feminine body. In fact, I am taking the State to court to fight for my insurance to pay for H.R.T. I don't know how this will sound, but my fondest wish is to watch the front of my blouse jiggle when I climb stairs.

I doubt this helps you much. I see that all I've done is joined in your confusion.

But thanks for letting me vent. And if you figure things out, drop me a line. Please?

Chrysee, I'm sorry that things are rough in your life. You are older than I am, so I guess you have been through a lot.

Honestly, I don't really know whether I'm an androgyne or not. I'm not sure I'm transsexual, either. If being an androgyne or a transsexual female means I need to fit the definition of each category, I definitely don't belong to either one.

I have never thought much about gender identity. Really, what I can relate is the sex I'm associated with. When I grew up, what I saw was that I have a male anatomy, so I thought that made me a man. That's it. That's because of how I was raised.

My definition of femininity and masculinity is also from my observation in Vietnamese culture and American culture. That's how I know for sure I'm feminine. I have always been the way I am. However, until I took human sexuality course, I had no idea what being feminine or masculine was.

Still, until now, I can't tell what makes a person man or woman. The only reason I want a female body is that I believe it will make me feel better with my gender expression. I don't hate feminine straight men or masculine straight women. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's just that it's not for me. So far, no body has judged me for my behavior, but I still feel very uncomfortable. It seems like my expression is not complete with the shell I have.

Unlike most transsexual people, I don't feel trapped in a wrong body in a sense that I am a female trapped in a male body. I know it's confusing, and English is not my first language. I will try to make it simple.

For example, if you ask me "Are you a man or a woman?", I will say I'm a man. Nevertheless, it's not that simple. In my mind, I will think that since I have a penis, my trachea is prominent, I have facial hair; it makes sense to say I'm a man. That answer relies entirely on my anatomy. Psychologically and socially, however, I can't tell for sure; I don't have answer when it comes to what is going on in my mind.

Speaking of expression, I consider my behavior feminine because that's what I see in many women, and I feel like my trait is similar or even identical to theirs.

Speaking of orientation, I am attracted to men.

Still, I cannot loudly say that I am a woman. There are many factors that influence my identity. Some of them are:

1/ I am not interested in makeup or fancy clothes

2/ Women, at least the one I used to meet, like cats over dogs. I, in contrast, prefer dogs.

3/ I exercise regularly, but I don't like dancing. Lots of women I met liked to show their curves when they were working out.

4/ I don't cook very well, and I'm not interested in food network.

5/ I am sort of an introvert. I prefer interpersonal relationship to group.

6/ Shopping is nice, but I am content the way I dress. I don't like spending hours in shopping stores.

7/ I'm not interested in marriage although I want to spend the rest of my life with my guy. If there is a wedding, I don't want a fancy one. I only want a simple and small wedding.

8/ I really like to talk about relationship with other women (men too but mostly women). However, chit chatting behind someone's back is not what I like.

9/ A lot of women I have met liked pictures or greeting cards. I don't care about them. I believe that as long as I can spend each precious minute with people I love, the memory is in me. I don't need pictures to remind me that.

10/ I don't like wearing jewelry, not even a necklace.

11/ I keep my nails clean, and I sometimes use topcoat on them. However, I don't use color paint or flower sticker on them.

12/ I'm not very good at opening or continuing a conversation. Whatever I say is usually simple and to the point. I am sometimes emotional when I speak, but I can't talk nonstop like most women can.

13/ The parental instinct never occurs to me. I like children, but I'm not interested in becoming a parent.

14/ Like many women, I can't separate sex and love. I have never had sex, but if I do, I want to have it or experiment it with the man I love. I don't want one-night stand or some short-lived relationship. However, I think about physical intimacy every day, a few times a day maybe.

Certainly, what I list above is just a stereotype. But because those stereotypes socially make up a woman, at least in American society, I can't say that I'm a woman, maybe close but not absolutely a woman. Apparently I can't say I'm a man either because I'm too different from them. Does that make sense?

If I do the math, it's like this:

"I don't think about gender distinction" + "I am feminine" + "I don't hate my body, but it makes me uncomfortable due to my gender expression" + "I am attracted to men" = "I want a female body"

I think this is who I am, Chrysee. I wish I could be just normal like any transsexual person. Even androgynes are confident in their identity. They know how gender identity, gender expression, sexual orientation work independently. For me, they all seem to lump together.

[Guest Chrysee]

By the way: 'Hello and welcome!"

I don't think that i said a lot about myself in the post that you replied to and so the fact that you know about my life being tough tells me that you read some of my other posts? And you're still new. Anyway, thanks for noticing.

As far as whether someone fits under this or that heading (or even wants to!) here is my favorite story. Should give you something to think about.

David Bowie's wife (ex?) Angie was on a talk show and alluded to catching her husband in bed with Mick Jagger.

"So Mick Jagger's gay?" the show's hostess asked.

"No.", Angie answered, shaking her head.

"Well then he's bi."

"No!", Angie answered, obviously getting exasperated.

"Well what is he, then?"

Angie leaned forward, sticking her face out:

"He's Mick Jagger!"

And that said it all.

[Guest Micha]

Is it possible that an androgyne desires a female's body?

Since I grew up, although I have felt more connected to my feminine side, I don't really think about difference between male and female. I was raised as a man like any Vietnamese child. However, I never differentiate two genders. I don't pick side or consider one gender superior to the other. I do feel more and more feminine when I get older, but the perception of what makes someone a man or a woman is still ambiguous. I'm 25 years old, and I still can't see the difference, and I don't care about the difference.

My behavior is definitely more feminine by nature. I feel comfortable with it, but I don't feel comfortable expressing it in a male's body. I don't hate my body, but I feel like it's a barrier for my gender expression. I want a female's body for the sake of my feminine personality and expression. I don't have a clear conception of male or female although I know what makes someone masculine or feminine because I am feminine.

Is my feeling normal?

What is this. . ."normal?" If it's how you feel, that's just the way it is, what of it?

I'm also gonna allude to your later post, but I don't wanna add it to this quote, so you know. . .

You're right in saying that everything you listed is basically the stereotype, and also in saying that has a lot to do with how people act and are supposed to act in society. But it's also a box, a limitation on thought and expression. I wouldn't worry so much about it if you can help it. I know my situation is a little unique in that the only people I'm around are people who don't expect me to be "normal." But hopefully my perspective can help you in some way.

I relate to what you said in that having male anatomy makes you male. That's how it is for me. I am a man, but that only goes as far as what's between my legs, it has nothing to do with how I act, or behavioral implications. Where I can't relate, or don't want to relate, is considering my behavior to be feminine. I'm losing sight of the differences in that, so I can also relate when you say such differences are ambiguous. I'd like to keep it that way.

Basically, I identify as androgynous because I don't and will not fall into the stereotypes. I will not be defined by my genitals. I don't desire hormones or surgery, even if I do think a more "feminine" body would suit me; I don't consider myself a woman or a man when it comes to psychological identity. If you asked me if I acted feminine, I wouldn't know. That's something that used to cause me worry, but now it's more like "whatever, I don't wanna act like most guys, so I don't."

By my perspective, I think you're worrying too much over whether someone with a penis should be acting the way you do. But I am not you, so I can't really say you shouldn't worry about it. It's merely something I don't worry about. It's kinda funny too, cuz I'm into eyeliner and nail polish (as established, feminine) and you're not.

Jus so you know, my wife hates cats. I'm a dog person m'self, so really, what's that got to do with gender? You like what appeals to you, regardless of gender. You act as you are, regardless of gender (or I feel people should anyways). It sounds like you are uncomfortable in your body, even if you don't feel trapped in it. Your body is your vessel, it should be comfortable; you have your life to live in it, and the trek is tough enough without your shoes being too tight, so to speak. There's nothing wrong in wanting to feel good in your body, in wanting it to match your emotional/psychological identity.

And definitions. . .they're only descriptions of generalizations. It's not something that you shape yourself to fit into, just something to help you understand to some extent who you are. Don't worry then about what to call it, just recognize it, and do what's right by you.

Kinda went off didn' I? Oops

[Guest symempathy]

What is this. . ."normal?" If it's how you feel, that's just the way it is, what of it?

I'm also gonna allude to your later post, but I don't wanna add it to this quote, so you know. . .

You're right in saying that everything you listed is basically the stereotype, and also in saying that has a lot to do with how people act and are supposed to act in society. But it's also a box, a limitation on thought and expression. I wouldn't worry so much about it if you can help it. I know my situation is a little unique in that the only people I'm around are people who don't expect me to be "normal." But hopefully my perspective can help you in some way.

I relate to what you said in that having male anatomy makes you male. That's how it is for me. I am a man, but that only goes as far as what's between my legs, it has nothing to do with how I act, or behavioral implications. Where I can't relate, or don't want to relate, is considering my behavior to be feminine. I'm losing sight of the differences in that, so I can also relate when you say such differences are ambiguous. I'd like to keep it that way.

Basically, I identify as androgynous because I don't and will not fall into the stereotypes. I will not be defined by my genitals. I don't desire hormones or surgery, even if I do think a more "feminine" body would suit me; I don't consider myself a woman or a man when it comes to psychological identity. If you asked me if I acted feminine, I wouldn't know. That's something that used to cause me worry, but now it's more like "whatever, I don't wanna act like most guys, so I don't."

By my perspective, I think you're worrying too much over whether someone with a penis should be acting the way you do. But I am not you, so I can't really say you shouldn't worry about it. It's merely something I don't worry about. It's kinda funny too, cuz I'm into eyeliner and nail polish (as established, feminine) and you're not.

Jus so you know, my wife hates cats. I'm a dog person m'self, so really, what's that got to do with gender? You like what appeals to you, regardless of gender. You act as you are, regardless of gender (or I feel people should anyways). It sounds like you are uncomfortable in your body, even if you don't feel trapped in it. Your body is your vessel, it should be comfortable; you have your life to live in it, and the trek is tough enough without your shoes being too tight, so to speak. There's nothing wrong in wanting to feel good in your body, in wanting it to match your emotional/psychological identity.

And definitions. . .they're only descriptions of generalizations. It's not something that you shape yourself to fit into, just something to help you understand to some extent who you are. Don't worry then about what to call it, just recognize it, and do what's right by you.

Kinda went off didn' I? Oops

Hello, Micha

You have a cute name.

What you say makes sense. However, it's easier said than done. One reason is I am not American like you are. I have only been a US citizen for two years, and I'm still not well Americanized yet. My friend told me that I have too much of conscience. I don't know whether I am really that sensitive. Maybe she is right. I'm always afraid my actions can have consequences on my family. I don't care about my uncles and aunts. I don't really know them, and they are not close to me, but I don't want to hurt my parents' feelings. I have to monitor my behavior in front of them. They know that I'm not like other men, but they never see my full femininity. However, when I was a kid, about 5 years old, I wore my mom's scarf running around the house. My mom was worried that something was wrong with me.

Please don't be offended when I say this. I feel funny when you mention your wife and your gender selection is androgyne. I can't help assuming that your wife must have a personality that matches or balances yours. I often see that in a romantic relationship, there is a balance of personality. When I say this, I don't mean, let's say in a straight couple, that the guy has to be muscular, macho, rough, deep voice, gallant, dominant, or the girl must be submissive, gentle, nurturing, seductive, etc. It's not like that.

What I'm saying is that somehow one person has masculine trait and the other has feminine trait. Apparently even the guy has some femininity in him, which is balanced out by his girlfriend/wife's masculinity. This seems to happen subconsciously. You know what I mean, don't you?

It seems like you are happy with you body and your self identity. It's very great. I hope someday I will be like you. For now, I always feel like I am dishonoring my genetic male body with my feminine expression. That is it. I don't go beyond that and say I'm a female. "Am" is a strong word to identify a person's self. Since I don't truly have the concept of who is a man/woman, I won't say that.

Micha, I hope you don't mind me asking you this. Before you and your wife were married, how did you explain to her who you really are? Did she easily accept you? Since your gender selection is androgyne, I wonder how your wife feels when you call you husband because this word is used for someone whose sex is XY and gender identification is male, right?

[Guest Micha]

Hello Symempathy and thank you. Micha is from my middle name, but offing the last two letters makes it fit me better.

After I posted I was worried that I was being bull headed. Hope it didn't shake you.

I admit to ignorance when it comes to other cultures, and most of the limited time I've spent in research has been consumed with the Navajo. Sincerely sorry if I stepped on your toes, I had love in my intentions. *HUGGLES* I wouldn't expect anyone to change how they feel, and if they chose to, I understand it would be a long process (from experience, I didn't start to grow up 'till I was 20+ years old).

It's prolly a good thing if you're conscientious about how your actions will effect your family. Kinda wish my own family was a little more like that (rinse your own ruddy dishes slobs!...sorry...). It also seems that your mother has a strong sense of traditional behaviors? I can understand how transgenderism would have major implications on your family. Still, it's your life to live, and I feel strongly that an individual must be honest with themselves if they have any hope of a fulfilled life. But to sacrifice that for the benefit of family is also honorable.

You got a sharp mind. Indeed my wife and I balance each other out well, and where I may be perceived as "feminine" she too could be perceived as "masculine." We are very much two sides of the same coin, and that balance is prolly a significant factor in our lives. I absolutely know what you mean. I've found that in my attractions, the girls I was fondest of weren't your typical "girl." Likewise, though I never recognized it before, I have been somewhat attracted to "feminine" looking men. But it's not a rule, as in my recollection I've also realized that part of me longed to be loved by your more typical male. However as I've never acted on such notions or explored it's possibilities, I hopefully will never know (as I wish to remain married to the end of my days).

It seems like you are happy with you body and your self identity. It's very great. I hope someday I will be like you. For now, I always feel like I am dishonoring my genetic male body with my feminine expression. That is it. I don't go beyond that and say I'm a female. "Am" is a strong word to identify a person's self. Since I don't truly have the concept of who is a man/woman, I won't say that.

This is prolly where my ignorance will limit me, but forgive my efforts anyways. In my mind, things aren't set in stone. Not when it comes to that which is psychological or emotional. I prefer to be fluid, as water. To be able to be still as a lake or adaptable as a river. I can say that as of now I am an androgyne, but I couldn't tell you what I will or may be. Life and all that's in it changes, and we must be open to that or sink like a stone. Anywho, however you choose to look at it, you still must do what's right by you; weighing out how important expressing your "feminine" identity is to how important all that is stopping you is (ie you male body, your family). In this I wish you the best of luck, it sounds quite challenging.

Micha, I hope you don't mind me asking you this. Before you and your wife were married, how did you explain to her who you really are? Did she easily accept you? Since your gender selection is androgyne, I wonder how your wife feels when you call you husband because this word is used for someone whose sex is XY and gender identification is male, right?

We've been married over 6 years, been best friends 18 years and my gender revelation came only within the last 7 months. She's always known who I was, how I am and what not, but I didn't. There was a lot of emotional turmoil for me, but she always saw through what I tried to be (masculine) to what I truly was (me, myself). She's always known that I wasn't like the other guys, and that's probably why we got along so well (she has her own history with the typical male). But a more direct answer would be. . .

I talked to her about it last May. First time it just kinda came out in conversation, and she wasn't rattled in the least. I think she's always known me, just never worried about words, descriptions or whatever else. It wasn't a big deal to her, as it was to me, so there was no reason for her to stress over it. Later though, I would come home from work, emotionally unbalanced from my internal struggle to find myself, and we'd talk about what was bothering me. I think in those conversations she grasped how difficult it has been for me, seeing that I never felt comfortable with what I was supposed to be, as a man. Though she didn't see any reason to be anything than herself, she knows that we are opposites, and that I've never had her strong will and hard head. I've always been more sensitive about external perceptions. Really though, I think her biggest difficulty has been trying to figure out how these things could be so large to me as to reduce me to tears. My gender identity itself never seemed to bother her (if I were to pursue hormones or surgery she would most likely object vehemently, so fortunately for the both of us, I don't).

I am a husband and a father, and the binary character of these terms don't really bother me. Not sure how to describe that, but maybe it's just that I'm used to male pronouns. I don't mind being referred to as a she (as happens a lot here ), but I don't get offended either way. Gender neutrality in these terms and pronouns is not established, even among transgendered, androgynous persons. So it's kind of acceptance by default.

Either way she loves me, always has, and not for the image I presented in trying to live up to a stereotype, but for who I've always been underneath the masks. I realize how fortunate I am to have that, and I really feel for people who don't. I don't talk to the rest of the family about it, because it's none of their business really. I'd get some acceptance, and I'd get some rejection, and the thought of either doesn't make much difference to me. If family doesn't love me for who I am, then it's their loss. Our family has strong bonds, but not strong enough that I'd sacrifice my "self" to please them. If that's not true for you, it's nothing to apologize for. Different folks, different strokes. Like I said, I admire how much concern you feel for your family and what your actions may do to them. I just hope that you can find understanding and acceptance in their hearts.

How is it some people know exactly what questions to ask to open doors I didn't realize were there?

[Guest Evan_J]

androgyne,......this word is used for someone whose sex is XY and gender identification is male, right?

[answered abstractly because the question was not posed to me]

Absolutely not. An androgyne can be a person of any chromosomal combination who feels their identification does not fit neatly into one box.

Micha, I happened to come back to the thread after all this time and realize I failed to followup and elaborate on something you asked me to , for that I apologize.

However, in reference to that very old train of thought, all I meant was why does it seem that so many people are adverse to sticking with their sex as a solo label if indeed they don't wish for its opposite and were comfortable in the role of their birth sex. Truely though the answer you gave likely addresses that question when you said "it makes things less complicated" . By that answer I'm assuming that you catch less flack by explaining your not being "traditional" by how you are most comfortable in executing that birth role by using the label androgyne with people? Or maybe even in thinking of yourself?

Let me also mention , that I asked the question feeling "frustration" at the fact that it seems to me (as an observer) sometimes that people who could arguably go through life without adding a string of "extraneous" labels feel compelled to add them for the ease or comfort of the outside world or those around them. That was the basis of my [cough, cough] rant.

In any case, sorry I "vanished" And this is a great topic.

[Guest Micha]

[answered abstractly because the question was not posed to me]

Micha, I happened to come back to the thread after all this time and realize I failed to followup and elaborate on something you asked me to , for that I apologize.

No worries. I figured you got lots to keep track of, there's so much to these forums.

However, in reference to that very old train of thought, all I meant was why does it seem that so many people are adverse to sticking with their sex as a solo label if indeed they don't wish for its opposite and were comfortable in the role of their birth sex. Truely though the answer you gave likely addresses that question when you said "it makes things less complicated" . By that answer I'm assuming that you catch less flack by explaining your not being "traditional" by how you are most comfortable in executing that birth role by using the label androgyne with people? Or maybe even in thinking of yourself?

You have a way of nailing me and it leaves me in awe. It's totally internal. I don't worry about explaining why I am the way I am to others. It's really more about trying to find myself, just to know what it is that makes me who I am. I've come a lot farther since your last post here, my answers are way different now than when I started. Your post actually challenged me to explain something and I couldn't. Dunno if I can now, but I've got a better (IMO) idea of it. Self identifying as androgynous takes a lot of pressure off me, in what standards I hold myself to. I realize now I should have never tried to live up to a standard that was not my own, but it took this introspection to "come out of the box." I truly wish I could have been strong enough to just say "yah, I got testicles, you think I shouldn't act feminine? Tough luck." I'm too sensitive, or maybe weak minded, so I let the external form me, and thus chaos ensued.

Now it's more like my consciousness isn't and should never be defined by my physical sex. I have a man's body, but my consciousness isn't masculine or feminine. Those words are useless to describe my "self." Therefore, I am androgynous.

Let me also mention , that I asked the question feeling "frustration" at the fact that it seems to me (as an observer) sometimes that people who could arguably go through life without adding a string of "extraneous" labels feel compelled to add them for the ease or comfort of the outside world or those around them. That was the basis of my [cough, cough] rant.

It probably does seem like it adds to the complication, like why bother, just be who you are if you fit into your body, right? I don't think I could explain that to any satisfaction. I really do need to see a therapist, in general. You might be right about me and others feeling compelled, I dunno. For me it was a series of unanswered questions that caused me grief. It feels better to have some semblance of an answer now.

And thank you. It really helps to have those difficult questions asked, even if being unable to answer them at first is frustrating. Rant away anytime, I won't complain.

[Guest symempathy]

Hello Symempathy and thank you. Micha is from my middle name, but offing the last two letters makes it fit me better.

Yes, the name seems fit you well. Don't feel insulted when I say this, please. Your name sounds like a bear name although I think the word is Misha. Anyways, it's an adorable name. In this country, even animals' names are gender specific. It's difficult to find a gender neutral English-based name, at least for me it is. I am not American, but just hearing a name, I can tell most of the time whether that name is male or female. It shows that American culture is highly patriarchal. In Vietnamese culture, some names are exclusively masculine/feminine, but lots of them are neutral.

By the way, please call me Minh. My name by itself is neutral, usually more men have it than women.

It's prolly a good thing if you're conscientious about how your actions will effect your family. Kinda wish my own family was a little more like that (rinse your own ruddy dishes slobs!...sorry...). It also seems that your mother has a strong sense of traditional behaviors? I can understand how transgenderism would have major implications on your family. Still, it's your life to live, and I feel strongly that an individual must be honest with themselves if they have any hope of a fulfilled life. But to sacrifice that for the benefit of family is also honorable.

Well, my friend, you speak like a true American. I like that attitude. I initially thought Americans were selfish and narcissistic. However, once I took the oath of allegiance and received my citizenship certificate, it was also the moment of enlightenment. I came to understand why American people lived for themselves first. I'm trying to live their "to live and let live" motto. Loving oneself should be as important as loving others. One can only bring happiness to other people when he/she is happy him/herself. It's something I have yet achieved.

This is prolly where my ignorance will limit me, but forgive my efforts anyways. In my mind, things aren't set in stone. Not when it comes to that which is psychological or emotional. I prefer to be fluid, as water. To be able to be still as a lake or adaptable as a river. I can say that as of now I am an androgyne, but I couldn't tell you what I will or may be. Life and all that's in it changes, and we must be open to that or sink like a stone. Anywho, however you choose to look at it, you still must do what's right by you; weighing out how important expressing your "feminine" identity is to how important all that is stopping you is (ie you male body, your family). In this I wish you the best of luck, it sounds quite challenging.

I get what you say. Expressing the so-called femininity in me is indeed who I really am. I guess if I live in an environment where there are many atypical women like your wife, I will be more confident with my male body OR I may have enough courage to change it if necessary to match my expression.

We've been married over 6 years, been best friends 18 years and my gender revelation came only within the last 7 months. She's always known who I was, how I am and what not, but I didn't. There was a lot of emotional turmoil for me, but she always saw through what I tried to be (masculine) to what I truly was (me, myself). She's always known that I wasn't like the other guys, and that's probably why we got along so well (she has her own history with the typical male).

That's really romantic. Your wife knows you even better than you know yourself. I also admire you guys for the commitment. 18 years is a long time. I often hear that people in American society are either friends or lovers. If one party, mostly men (due to their hormone), can't have intimacy with the other one; they end up being friends . Your love is not only romantic but also atypical.

I talked to her about it last May. First time it just kinda came out in conversation, and she wasn't rattled in the least. I think she's always known me, just never worried about words, descriptions or whatever else. It wasn't a big deal to her, as it was to me, so there was no reason for her to stress over it. Later though, I would come home from work, emotionally unbalanced from my internal struggle to find myself, and we'd talk about what was bothering me. I think in those conversations she grasped how difficult it has been for me, seeing that I never felt comfortable with what I was supposed to be, as a man. Though she didn't see any reason to be anything than herself, she knows that we are opposites, and that I've never had her strong will and hard head. I've always been more sensitive about external perceptions. Really though, I think her biggest difficulty has been trying to figure out how these things could be so large to me as to reduce me to tears. My gender identity itself never seemed to bother her (if I were to pursue hormones or surgery she would most likely object vehemently, so fortunately for the both of us, I don't).

So basically, you can express yourself in whatever way you want, and your wife is fine with it. However, she won't like it if you seek for hormone therapy or surgery. That's what you mean, don't you?

In a way, I think I can understand your wife. Sorry if it sounds gross to you, I think your wife completely accepts you for who you are. That's emotional connection. The other part is physical bonding, which is also important, right? I mean she needs physical connection with you as a wonderful human being in a male body shell. Forgive me if I exaggerate too much.

It will be the case for me, too, if I'm romantically involved with a guy. I don't think I will care how he identifies himself. However, I will want physical intimacy with him as a male.

I am a husband and a father, and the binary character of these terms don't really bother me. Not sure how to describe that, but maybe it's just that I'm used to male pronouns. I don't mind being referred to as a she (as happens a lot here ), but I don't get offended either way. Gender neutrality in these terms and pronouns is not established, even among transgendered, androgynous persons. So it's kind of acceptance by default.

Micha, you are a dad. Does your child have any problem with your identity? I mean you apparently don't impose a specific gender role on your kid, but don't want him/her to be confused, do you?

[Guest Micha]

You're so polite Minh, I love it!

Don't feel insulted when I say this, please. Your name sounds like a bear name although I think the word is Misha. Anyways, it's an adorable name. In this country, even animals' names are gender specific. It's difficult to find a gender neutral English-based name, at least for me it is. I am not American, but just hearing a name, I can tell most of the time whether that name is male or female. It shows that American culture is highly patriarchal. In Vietnamese culture, some names are exclusively masculine/feminine, but lots of them are neutral.

I don't feel insulted. I've never heard of a brewery or brand like that, but all the same. I like beer anywho, just not to get intoxicated on (leaves me feeling bloated, not a fun buzz ). In less than 4 weeks my son will be born, and in thinking of names I've come to wonder at how gender specific most names are. It's disheartening. . .gender neutrality really does appeal to me. No connotations on what you're supposed to be like. In my life though, my name has had little meaning to me in how I'm supposed to be.

I initially thought Americans were selfish and narcissistic. However, once I took the oath of allegiance and received my citizenship certificate, it was also the moment of enlightenment. I came to understand why American people lived for themselves first. I'm trying to live their "to live and let live" motto. Loving oneself should be as important as loving others. One can only bring happiness to other people when he/she is happy him/herself. It's something I have yet achieved.

More often than not I'd agree with your initial assessment. I do find most people to be selfish, but that could be a lack of knowing their experience. Either way, I don't feel being an individual with freewill means you must be selfish, or to live for yourself. I believe it is possible to live true to yourself as an individual and still live the ethical life (living for others). I hope I do this myself, in everything I do for my family, while still maintaining my freewill.

I believe you're right too that in order to love others you must first love yourself, or at least you are more capable of loving others by loving yourself. Of course happiness is subjective, so what works for one person may not work for another, but that too is a part of being an individual.

I wish "live and let live" was the American way of life, then maybe the "majority" wouldn't feel so threatened by people who are "different."

I get what you say. Expressing the so-called femininity in me is indeed who I really am. I guess if I live in an environment where there are many atypical women like your wife, I will be more confident with my male body OR I may have enough courage to change it if necessary to match my expression.

I hope you find your way to that confidence or bravery one way or another. I don't think I'm alone in feeling that repressing who you are does not lead to happiness, subjective as it may be.

Your love is not only romantic but also atypical.

Thank you, I like to think it is.

So basically, you can express yourself in whatever way you want, and your wife is fine with it. However, she won't like it if you seek for hormone therapy or surgery. That's what you mean, don't you?

In a way, I think I can understand your wife. Sorry if it sounds gross to you, I think your wife completely accepts you for who you are. That's emotional connection. The other part is physical bonding, which is also important, right? I mean she needs physical connection with you as a wonderful human being in a male body shell. Forgive me if I exaggerate too much.

It will be the case for me, too, if I'm romantically involved with a guy. I don't think I will care how he identifies himself. However, I will want physical intimacy with him as a male.

Exactly! For this reason I can understand the reactions of not so supportive significant others to members here, at least a little. Hormones and surgery are drastic changes to that physical bond, and that bond is important. It's a difficult situation for all involved, and it's tragic to think of it as a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" case for many people.

Micha, you are a dad. Does your child have any problem with your identity? I mean you apparently don't impose a specific gender role on your kid, but don't want him/her to be confused, do you?

This is something I've had to think about a lot. I have two daughters (5 and 3 1/2) and a son on the way. My oldest is starting to pick up on the differences between boys and girls, not just physically but behaviorally too. It's a concern for me, but only in the back of my mind; sort of a point of caution perhaps. I don't want them to be confused, and I think that by not placing behavioral expectations on them (outside of not hurting people, being responsible etc.) they'll be free to grow into their own personalities. For instance, my daughters are a little tomboyish, in that they play rough, wrestle and their favorite characters outside of princesses are X-Men and Ninja Turtles. If nothing else, things seem balanced as far as how masculine and feminine they are. We got my oldest a jewelery box and some earrings for her birthday, admittedly a feminine gift. She enjoys them, but not because we want her too. She was excited to get her ears pierced, and so she's excited to have earrings. Since I have an ear piercing (and many more to come, when money allows), I don't think she sees it as something girls do and not boys. They still play with there toys in a boy like manner, a lot of X-Men influence in that, so I don't think there's a lot of feminization taking place, just a balance of the two. My sincerest hope is that my children will be strong enough in their self identity to avoid the confusion I suffered.

[Guest Donna Jean]

Micha....

Hon, I've approved posts for this thread, but, not really sat and read it.

I just did that now...

And I'm intrigued and enlightened...

I really had no insight into this middle ground...this genderless area.

You see, I'm a woman. I know exactly what I want/need out of all of this. How I want to be perceived by society and how I want to see myself.

Androgynous to me is a waypoint between appearing male and female.

It's that time during my transition where people look at me and can't really figure if I'm a girly guy or a male looking woman.

The way that it's being talked about here is a destination...the place to be...To me, it's a place to pass through.

And this is why I've read through all of this... to get a better understanding of it all.

Well, like I always say...we're all the same here at LP, yet each and everyone of us is different..

Thank you for your time...I enjoyed reading everything and I think that I have a much more clear idea of what it's all about...

Bunch-O-Huggs

Donna Jean

[Guest Evan_J]

I really had no insight into this middle ground...this genderless area.

That actually was the reason I first read here. I had too many folks askin questions I had no idea about; couldn't talk to anyone about the subject at all cuz I knew nothing about it. For me it was one of the two sexes as a destination. Other ideas were "confusing" , I couldn't wrap my brain around it cuz it was too much not like me. That doesn't work for me. I think it behooves all people to find out about the other guy; everyone has to be able to figure out how to live here together.

[Guest Micha]

It seems like androgyny is very different even for each androgyn. Maybe less defined than man or woman. When I first got here it seemed like exactly that, a checkpoint, one at which some people felt comfortable enough not to transition all the way. And then it also seemed like the goal was how one was to be perceived, as in, people can't figure out what their physical sex is from their appearance or behaviors. And then of course there's people who are both, and those who are neither. I've talked to a couple of people who identify as androgynous, yet don't share my views, but we're all still androgynous. Last night I talked to someone who was saying things that I would'a said, and I was elated!

Er. . .point being. . .think I had one. . .

Part of what makes this identity so confusing is it's adaptability, or diversity. It is what you make of it, it works for you as you need it too perhaps. I'm still trying to understand what it means to my friends who don't see things the way I do.

Anyways, thanks for the kind words, but really. . .I wasn't the only one talkin'.

Sorry Geo! I hijacked your topic!

[Guest Evan_J]

Sorry Geo! I hijacked your topic!

Tsk tsk.

Except that you didn't (at least for me)

That last comment was "general"; to anyone androgyne

[Guest digitalgremlin]

Hahah xD It's okay xD

[Guest symempathy]

In less than 4 weeks my son will be born, and in thinking of names I've come to wonder at how gender specific most names are. It's disheartening. . .gender neutrality really does appeal to me. No connotations on what you're supposed to be like. In my life though, my name has had little meaning to me in how I'm supposed to be.

Congratulations! I hope your boy will have a normal life that he deserves. Living without gender issue is hard enough. It's totally unnecessary to have extra stress over identity problem even though I have to admit I have more compassion when I have to go through this issue.

Exactly! For this reason I can understand the reactions of not so supportive significant others to members here, at least a little. Hormones and surgery are drastic changes to that physical bond, and that bond is important. It's a difficult situation for all involved, and it's tragic to think of it as a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" case for many people.

I'm really happy for you and your wife. Each person has a certain tolerance and acceptance limit.

I am curious and want to ask you if you don't mind. You identify yourself as an androgyne. That is psychological. What about your physical appearance? Do you make it appear neutral or more male/female?

In my life, so far, I met only one person, my housing agent, who appears androgynous. I don't know whether she (I assume the person is a biological female because she has a female voice) is a lesbian, transman, androgyne, or something else. Her gesture is generally neutral. She's not stiff like most men, but she doesn't use her body language as much as other women. Her clothes are generally neutral. Well, I'm ignorant of fashion, so I can't really tell. She has a feminine voice which I consider natural. Her body frame is solid like a man although it is not muscular. I had trouble communicating with her at first because I didn't know how to call her appropriately without offending her.

Do you have any difficulty in your workplace, Micha? How do you deal with other "typical" macho men and traditional women?

For me, assuming that my parents accept me totally, I'm not brave enough to go out and dress like a woman even though I'm comfortable with my feminine gesture. I think it will be easier to let other people assume that I'm gay rather than I have some psychological disorder or weird expression. I have noticed that men tend to treat me differently than other typical masculine men. I can see that they tend to be soft with me, but it seem like they are not very comfortable. With other "normal" men, they have a "rougher" conversation.

It seems like those men want to be nice with me because of my politeness and softness, but because I appear as a male, they have to limit themselves so they won't lose their manliness. Perhaps I'm just too analytical, but it seems to be that way.

This is something I've had to think about a lot. I have two daughters (5 and 3 1/2) and a son on the way. My oldest is starting to pick up on the differences between boys and girls, not just physically but behaviorally too. It's a concern for me, but only in the back of my mind; sort of a point of caution perhaps. I don't want them to be confused, and I think that by not placing behavioral expectations on them (outside of not hurting people, being responsible etc.) they'll be free to grow into their own personalities. For instance, my daughters are a little tomboyish, in that they play rough, wrestle and their favorite characters outside of princesses are X-Men and Ninja Turtles. If nothing else, things seem balanced as far as how masculine and feminine they are. We got my oldest a jewelery box and some earrings for her birthday, admittedly a feminine gift. She enjoys them, but not because we want her too. She was excited to get her ears pierced, and so she's excited to have earrings. Since I have an ear piercing (and many more to come, when money allows), I don't think she sees it as something girls do and not boys. They still play with there toys in a boy like manner, a lot of X-Men influence in that, so I don't think there's a lot of feminization taking place, just a balance of the two. My sincerest hope is that my children will be strong enough in their self identity to avoid the confusion I suffered.

You also have daughters? That's great. Living with full-of-acceptance and loving parents like you and your wife, I believe your children will grow up becoming wonderful human beings. It's good that your daughters are not afraid to get rough and dirty without worrying about looking like Miley Cyrus or Lindsay Lohan. There is nothing wrong to want to look like those girls, but I believe girls can be beautiful and have good self-esteem just by being themselves. I'm happy you have such great daughters. You and your wife are really good parents.

[Guest Nikki A]

OK! i think/hope i can help cuz i understand how you feel 97%

i do identify as female, and i always have, i feel like a girl i am a girl. i have more issues when i try too hard to be a girl. this is just my opinion, but maybe at one point you were just trying too hard to be male. for me it was like falling back into playing a role, the only peace ive managed to find with myself is to just stop worrying about it! how many cis gendered people do you see worrying about whether they r boy or girl? i havnt met any yet lol. im a girl but im also trans which makes me not a girl technically! it is just like any other way people are born! i think the trick is to stop fretting! what we need is an accepting world where being stealth isn't even necissary! that would make me happy! im in a position where i can be out about who i am and not feel in danger. i think i got off topic there sorry! lol

you are trans! whenever i feel like you described i stop and ask myself

"boy? girl? in between? ehh, idgaf! im a person and ill do what makes me happy"

hugs, Nikki

[Guest Micha]

Congratulations!

Thank you!

You identify yourself as an androgyne. That is psychological. What about your physical appearance? Do you make it appear neutral or more male/female?

This is probably where I differ most from other androgynes I've talked to. The only thing I really do to add (can't seem to avoid using these words. . .) femininity to my appearance is wearing eyeliner, and from time to time mascara. With my physical features (and ruddy genetics) I don't think I could pull off an androgynous look, want to or not. So I don't appear androgynous, I look like a male. Before my hair thinned out and receded I would sometimes be called a girl, but mostly by children. Like while working at a store once, a child asked his mother about me, "does he have a penis or a thingy?" Now there's no chance, the only look I can pull off is a Jason Statham look, only pudgier. Doesn't bother me much though. Yes, I'd like to look prettier, even as a male, but it can't be helped.

Some adnrogynes wish to look completely androgynous, where as they can't be tagged as male or female. Some androgynes take hormones with or without intentions to have surgery, to have something of a mixed body, a combination of male and female. Everyone's got their own goals, and not everyone wished to go "all the way," so there's really no standard of normal; there's only what you want for yourself and what you need to do to accomplish it.

I had trouble communicating with her at first because I didn't know how to call her appropriately without offending her.

This is where a gender neutral pronoun would come in handy, yah? But you never know with people, they may get offended anyways.

Do you have any difficulty in your workplace, Micha? How do you deal with other "typical" macho men and traditional women?

I'm a custodian on a crew of 7 other workers. Only one is a woman, she's 10 years older than me and we get along very well. She's kinda of atypical herself (come to realize that most women I get along with are "atypical"). The only other person I really talk to is is a guy a couple years younger than me. Don't know him to well, but we've talked lots about music. We like the same style, and we're both drummers, so we could go on for days. However I think he has a more traditional "male" mindset, not into "sissy" stuff, and prolly not sympathetic to transgendered or homo/bisexual people. Never talked about that with him, no need really, but otherwise we get along quite well. The other men on the crew I don't talk to much. They're quite typical, but that's not why. For the most part it's because I'm an introvert (believe it or not )and the rest of us share little to nothing in common. About the only time I can hold up a conversation is when talking about baseball. They don't seem bothered by me, and I'm quite content to sit off alone with a sketchbook or novel.

Of course I haven't mentioned anything about androgyny to them, or anyone else other than my wife. Again, there's really no need to. All they'll see is a guy who's a bit different, who's always been so, and more often than not, that's as far as it goes. Got questioned a few times about the nail polish; they ask why and I say "cuz I want to" and that's the end of that.

For me, assuming that my parents accept me totally, I'm not brave enough to go out and dress like a woman even though I'm comfortable with my feminine gesture. I think it will be easier to let other people assume that I'm gay rather than I have some psychological disorder or weird expression.

Whatever you're comfortable with. And perhaps with time, and with each step forward, your confidence will grow. Eventually you may be empowered enough to express yourself however you like.

I have noticed that men tend to treat me differently than other typical masculine men. I can see that they tend to be soft with me, but it seem like they are not very comfortable. With other "normal" men, they have a "rougher" conversation.

It seems like those men want to be nice with me because of my politeness and softness, but because I appear as a male, they have to limit themselves so they won't lose their manliness. Perhaps I'm just too analytical, but it seems to be that way.

If that is the case, then that's kinda sad. I can see how it would be so, but to me, that just shows their insecurity with their own gender identity. At the very least though, at least they're not rude or vicious to you. Always a plus! Come to think of it, I've probably had similar experiences, where it seemed people took pity on me, or talked or hung out with me even though they didn't have a sincere interest in my company. Huh. . .

I'm happy you have such great daughters. You and your wife are really good parents.

I'm happy too, thank you so much.

i do identify as female, and i always have, i feel like a girl i am a girl. i have more issues when i try too hard to be a girl. this is just my opinion, but maybe at one point you were just trying too hard to be male. for me it was like falling back into playing a role, the only peace ive managed to find with myself is to just stop worrying about it! how many cis gendered people do you see worrying about whether they r boy or girl? i havnt met any yet lol. im a girl but im also trans which makes me not a girl technically! it is just like any other way people are born! i think the trick is to stop fretting! what we need is an accepting world where being stealth isn't even necissary! that would make me happy! im in a position where i can be out about who i am and not feel in danger. i think i got off topic there sorry! lol

you are trans! whenever i feel like you described i stop and ask myself

"boy? girl? in between? ehh, idgaf! im a person and ill do what makes me happy"

hugs, Nikki

Good point, I believe. Though it seems to me that most men do subconsciously worry about their "manliness." My father in law lives with us, and he's a very traditional man. The sort that carrying babies and raising children and keeping up a home is the woman's job; no need to take pity on her or help out, that's just her lot in life. Only time he helps to clean is either when I, the man, ask, or if he sees me doing dishes (and then it seems like he takes pity on me, like it's wrong I should have to do it, so he helps out then). Even then though, gender doesn't seem to be a the forefront like it is for a transgendered person. Of course that's security and confidence, not exclusive to the cis gendered. Many times for a transsexual it's "I am" and there's no doubt, question or confusion, only the process of making the physical fit the consciousness.

I also wonder if a source of rejection is insecurity. People don't want to accept a world where someone could be born with the wrong body. Or maybe that people conform so much to what's expected, they don't want to admit that they don't feel as masculine or feminine as they present, and may even be jealous of transgendered people who have the courage to step up and come out. Just some thoughts I s'pose.