Lgbt Persecution

[Guest elenag]

...possibly influenced by ‘right wing’ thinking, especially when it come to LGBT issues [please correct me if I’m wrong], but I take it the environment/community in which you live is predominantly ‘anti’ LGBT rights…

I know this was directed to blackkatsten, but I do balk at classifying any single issue as a right wing issue. With this one the subject is agreeing or disagreeing with a hate crimes bill. When I look at a specific argument, I don't see left or right wing. I see an argument distinct from a particular ideology and I think that's how everyone ought to see things. Disagreeing with a single argument doesn't make you right wing. And not only that, I don't see it as a bad thing even if it were true. Voting along ideological boundaries and peer expectations is not what a thinking person does. It's what a partisan does and it's my opinion that no side, left or right, can lay claim on righteousness. Even though I disagree with blackkasten on this particular topic, I respect the courage it can take to state a potentially minority opinion so long as it's stated in a dignified way.

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora Elenag,

Umm,so when the church ‘argues’ their point about gay and transgender issues… ‘ideology’ doesn’t play any part? One would like to think so but we all know that’s not the case…

We all have a right to our own opinions [even those who are still in the closet]-however on issues such as the Hate crime bill’ I feel, being out of the closet one can really gets to see the whole picture…But hey, that’s just my opinion..

I see your point about righteousness that both left and right are guilty of claiming it for their own…But in the States the far right is very influential when it come to politics…I’m ‘presuming’ you’re in agreement here.

Not only in the states I might add -we here in Aotearoa are not immune to such far reaching influences- the kiwi opponents of the anti smacking bill [our ‘left wing’ government banned parents and church schools from ‘hitting’- physically abusing their children], were heavily backed financially by right wing American religious groups who funded the TV adds and national newspaper campaigns opposing the bill {Whom I might add they tried to stay incognito} …I had to laugh when an American psychologist the pro smackers had brought over to ‘argue’ their point, turned out –when being questioned- to be a teacher from a pro physical punishment ‘religious’ college back in the states…Don’t you just love it…SMILE...the anti smacking bill was past and the right wing are still trying to flog a dead horse-by bringing the topic up every now and again!!!The government tried to make them understand that when Jesus said "turn the other cheek", he was 'not' refering to a small child's posterior...And will they listen 'hell' no...

So I have witnessed first hand how easily they can try and at what lengths they would go to impose their far reaching ‘ideology’[warped sense of morality-a beating will teach a small child a lesson] on the gullible masses…But not for one minute did I say nor do I feel BK should be gagged because of the opinions expressed…I too believe in democracy and freedom of speech and all the crap that goes with it...But I guess I might have a different opinion if hate speech was directed 'directly' at me...

If BK opinions were not influenced by external forces i.e.,. by ‘right leaning’ family, friends, church nor any religious smooth talking right wing orientated media group…I ‘truly’ do apologise…However even if I’m wrong in my presumption re some form of ‘right wing’ influence, I still stand by what I said in regards to BK getting a ‘real life experience’ in order to see if the opinions expressed at this present moment in time will stand firm after a ‘walk on the wild-side’…

If one thinks outside the square about those who are in the forefront when it comes to ‘promoting’ the George Orwell concept of ‘thought crimes’ [which BK as also used this term-it just so happens to be the ‘catchphrase’ of many right wing opposing religious groups]…one would see the comparison in being told what to ‘think’ and the church’s concept of immoral ‘thoughts’ promote immoral acts-when it comes to homosexuality and transsexualism…

One could argue the church has been guilty of ‘mental’ abusing the masses for hundreds of years and have never been punished for it…

I’m fully aware of the struggles BK is facing and no doubt yourself to and wish both of you all the best whichever way you decides to flow… I would suggest that any other ‘closeted’ trans-person who shares similar opinions to BK re; the hate crimes bill, to take a ‘walk on the wild side’ for a while… and if they still feel the same after this walk, then their opinions on such a matter would have some form of ‘physical’ foundation on which to stand…Again I’m not trying to gag ones opinions…far from it…I’m just trying to add some ‘reality’ into the mix…

Umm, It’s funny how some opinions can drastically change when out in the real world!!!

I guess when I read or hear something that just doeen't sit right with me..I tend to look deeper into the possible background that would produce such comments...

BTW, I commend you for speaking up on Bk's behalf-even though you don't share BK's views...However we can all be 'courageous' and outspoken when it comes to any number of topics from the comfort zone of our living room, study or bedroom...Think about it...Have a nice day...

Metta Jendar

[Guest Seth]

and I quote "they just need to shut up and sit down and be happy with the same rights everyone else has. At least the military hasn't gone out and executed them."

What a douche.

The only people that can be descriminated against in the work place are trans and fat people....and I just so happen to be both.

[Guest elenag]

Kia Ora Elenag,

Umm,so when the church ‘argues’ their point about gay and transgender issues… ‘ideology’ doesn’t play any part? One would like to think so but we all know that’s not the case…

There are quite a number of people who follow the party line down to the letter, but because they do doesn't mean I have to. The thing about faith without questioning is it's a follower's mentality. Questioning what's right and what's wrong is never an offense in my mind.

--

There is real value to having attempted or completed the process of transition with respect to gaining perspective, so I would never deny the validity of where you're coming from with this. In the past I have believed and said things I later found to be untrue and naive that came to light after being out there in the public, at work, and with family and friends. I interacted with them as an openly transsexual woman, but not because I told them, but because I wasn't passing so it wasn't ever my choice. Going through that taught me something, which is patience. Having patience with people who you feel are inexperienced is probably the most powerful path to persuasion.

I look at it this way. If I can't persuade them, then time will.

--

Regarding the Christian church. I have mixed feelings about it. I understand their message, their effort to spread that message, and the hypocrisy that sometimes follows them. I hate to malign any particular religion, because I do have a spiritual belief and it would be rather easy for another to malign mine. It is difficult to reconcile that with some of the efforts of notable Christians who wish to deny us rights to name change, legal gender change, SRS, marriage, jobs, etc, but I do know a handful of Christian sects who fully accept and support LGBT, so I can't paint them with a broad stroke.

The best way to persuade those who deny rights to us is not with heated confrontation, but with teaching and showing them who you are. The reason they vilify us is because they don't see us as ordinary people. They see us as "something", or more likely a thing. It's my goal to show them my humanity so they will see that I'm a person just like them. By revealing that to them, they can find a way to feel empathy and possibly change their opinion of me as well as their denial of me.

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora Elenag…[and my apologises to BK for taking her topic slightly off track]…

As an outsider when looking at this forum which is made up of people mostly from the North American continent, [where I should add many are seen as having a deep affiliation with the church in one way or other]…I see this affiliation is especially hard for the younger ones to contend with[hence my presumption many are influence from ‘right wing’ groups]…

All their life they’ve been told by people they look up to and respect i.e., parents and church communities, that homosexuality and anything associated with it [remember the church tends to clump transgender and homosexuals into the same basket] is a sin in the eyes of the most high and that god is all seeing, all hearing[including ones thoughts]…Even if the sins of homosexuality did not factor much when the preacher preached…All are aware of this fact…Because it is the ‘doctoring’ of most churches

And I mean ‘doctoring’ not ‘doctrine’…

I guess it’s easy for me to voice my opinion re; church and religion, because they have no ‘influence’ whatsoever over how I lead my life…{ I loosely follow the teachings of the Buddha-but I don’t see Buddhism as a ‘god’ based religion in fact I don’t see Buddhism as being a religion full stop}

Umm, you brought up the terms ‘patience’ and ‘time’ Now don’t get me wrong I’m a strong believer in that “Patience is a virtue!” and “Time heals all wounds!”. But then I think about the abolition of slavery in 1886 and African Americans not getting the vote till the 1960s …Have you got a hundred odd years to spare?[i’ve added the fact racial prejudice and discrimination prevails in society today both of which are the legacies of slavery]…Or do you feel the American public opinions re; ‘diversity’ are rapidly changing, much faster than it took them to realise that the African American was ‘just an ordinary human being’ like themselves? I take it when you say patience and time you are talking about in ‘your’ life time and referring to your immediate family and friends and not the American public in general.

I’m well aware that there are some Christian sects who fully support the LGBT – just as there are here in Aotearoa…But the young christian transgender person is obliged to go to the church of their parents whom in many cases just happen to be anti LGBT and when I say anti I mean anti, some might spew out the ‘we love all people’ crap from the pulpit then go on [using quotes from their holy book] to condemn the life style of some…What 'does' it take to be a ‘good’ Christian nowadays…the bible’s teachings or free will? Surely one can’t have both…if I’m wrong all I can say is what strange bedfellows they make!!!

Sometimes in life it’s so easy to forget that others have trod a similar path to acceptance…

I’ve posted a full version of my reply in the ‘general forum’ so has not to hog BK post…Should anybody like to comment...

Metta Jendar

[Guest elenag]

Jendar:

I should say I meant patience on a personal level when interacting with people you know, not on a political societal level where one is fighting for civil rights. I have no patience for those who viciously attack me. I have a threshold that when exceeded causes me to not want to engage that person. So whenever I encounter a person who has questions, I suppose I go through a process of evaluating whether the questions are earnest or not. I'm not consciously aware of it but I seem to operate that way.