Hormones - There And Back Again.

[Guest Hydraxide]

I know, technically this should probably be in the HRT forum, but its more androgyne related in my opinion. Or rather, the scenario is directed at androgynes. I am also not condoning playing with hormones, which is a dumb idea, but rather investigating a thought experiment, one that doubtless many others have had cross their minds.

So, picture this: You are male or female and you want to look like neither; the inbetween. What is this in your eyes? If male, you want feminine face and body shape, but perhaps not breast development. If female, you want some more muscle and a leaner body shape but not necessarily facial hair and your voice breaking.

What do you do? Hormones seemingly are an 'all or nothing' approach. You can't dose yourself with AA's and estrogen and expect to land up 'in the middle' They will keep going and eventually push you out the other side. You could perhaps invest in a breast binder and hope like hell that they won't end up too large to hide; maybe that will work and maybe it won't. For females, taking testosterone will grant you the traits you desire, but eventually your voice will break and the beard will start to show. Dammit!

So, is the solution then to take hormones for a few months then stop for a period and restart? How far will you go? For the male andro, taking AAs without replacement sex hormones is not very wise in the long run as it can cause skeletal weakness and other knock-on effects. So, what I am considering (for myself and I'm still only considering, not going forward with it) is to deliberately not complete a full transition, as in not having full surgery. Yes, on the exterior and to all onlookers I would be female as the, uh..'proof' of male is concealed by the trousers. Would you consider doing this, as if you stop taking hormones then your body will 'reshape' itself back to the way it was with little (so I understand, could be wrong) to no permanent effects.

Does any other andro feel the same way for this quandary? What IS the body that you desire? What have you considered doing to obtain it? Are you willing to experiment and take hormones before deciding either "Yes, I want this" or "No, I just don't feel comfortable with where this is going."?

I personally am going for electrolysis for the face. I haven't 'come out' to my parents yet and i can cover this one by saying 'I just never want to shave again'. Eventually it will come to a head but I'll cross that bridge when i come to it.

[Guest April63]

I think I understand what you're trying to say. I think I'm the same way. I don't want to go through with a transition, but I would like to be more feminine. But if I don't transition, then I want to keep some more masculine traits. So that cancels out the feminine ones. Dohh. Doesn't really work that way. So I don't really know. There isn't too much of a middle. Our society doesn't like that, and our bodies weren't made for that either.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

What April says is correct. It is unfortunate that androgyne people have to depend upon non-hormone treatment to get where they feel comfortable.

Consider this - mind+body. You cannot separate these when on estrogen or testosterone replacement therapy. BOTH work to change you into the opposite body secondary sexual characteristics AND the mindset - and it is not possible to have only the body change.

PLUS - remember, if HRT is suddenly stopped, SOME things regress, but others do not. Say an Androgyne person wants some breast development but discovers the mental cahnges are overwhelmingly wrong (which will usually happen) Stopping HRT will cause some reversal in body and mind BUT - usually - if over 6 months, the sterility and loss of sexual drive will remain permanent. So the end result is a small breast development (full takes up to six years, though the main develpment takes two years). BUT the libido is permanently ruined. NOT GOOD.

There are a hundred other tradeoffs that don't work well, mainly because the desired effects take a long time to develope, while effects NOT desired by an Androgyne person usually kick in early. NO middle ground.

So HRT is a bad idea for crossdressers, autogynopheliacs and androgyne people - anyone who wants to remain male brained while gaining a feminine body.

So the possibilities are surgery and/or simple physical modifications such as growing out of the hair (if coming from natal male) to cutting the hair shorter (if coming from a natal female) - or timing eyebrows or letting them grow bushier - that kind of effort.

Like I said in another TOPIC of similar interest, take the strongest non-alterable features of your natal sex (tallness in males for example) and counter-balance it with opposite gender cues.

My suggestion, but as I an WANTING the entire package provided by HRT (to be completely feminized mind+body) - and I wanted to get through the androgynous stage as quickly as possible, I probably have a slanted viewpoint.

Elizabeth Anne

[Drea]

So HRT is a bad idea for crossdressers, autogynopheliacs and androgyne people...

I have read literature which has discussed eposodic use of hormones as being theraputic in crossdressers and transvestites. I guess these days such people would lump themselves under the transgendered heading. In any case I wouldn't see why such couldn't be extended to those who identify themselves as andro.

Hormones is far from an all or nothing proposition just like transition is not an all or nothing.

It would be a discussion to ask therapist about and hormone doctor to find what your individual desires would be, if a temporary use may achieve, what the risks or undesireable effects might be and to form a treatment plan.

For the most part cross gender hormones use will not tend to make one look more gender neutral by softening the secondary characteristics of ones birth gender. Instead hormones tend to add strong secondary gender traits of the other gender. Thus genetic males will get breast growth, genetic females will develop facial hair, changes in voice. This can cause strong competing secondary gender traits. This may in fact be desireably by many. It makes it harder to identify gender.

When one is transitioning, it usually requires other actions such as clothing selection, binding, electro or surgery to hide the strong traits of ones genetic gender heritage.

[Guest Jo-I-Dunno]

Consider this - mind+body. You cannot separate these when on estrogen or testosterone replacement therapy. BOTH work to change you into the opposite body secondary sexual characteristics AND the mindset - and it is not possible to have only the body change.

...

So HRT is a bad idea for crossdressers, autogynopheliacs and androgyne people - anyone who wants to remain male brained while gaining a feminine body.

I don't think that's true at all. Certainly, the physiology of the brain changes, but no one really knows how brains work yet. It's like diet. Dietary guidelines always change. Our understanding of the human brain is always changing, mostly because we don't know much yet anyway!

Personally, I think the "mindset" changes come from transitioning or gearing up to transition. I'm 4.5 months into HRT and still feel like, in my head, exactly who I've always been. My sexual interests and emotional sensitivity have changed slightly, but that happens with time to everyone, HRT or not.

I'm pretty fortunate. When I look inside myself, in my heart, there's nothing screaming I'm a boy or girl. For me, HRT is like... exercise or plastic surgery. People do all kinds of things to their bodies because they have an ideal self-image in mind and want to pursue it. I'm not becoming a girl on the outside because I'm a girl on the inside. I'm becoming a girl on the outside because... that's what I just want to look like. It's my ideal self-image. Just as people want to look skinny, muscular, large-breasted, whatever.

For the most part cross gender hormones use will not tend to make one look more gender neutral by softening the secondary characteristics of ones birth gender. Instead hormones tend to add strong secondary gender traits of the other gender. Thus genetic males will get breast growth, genetic females will develop facial hair, changes in voice. This can cause strong competing secondary gender traits. This may in fact be desireably by many. It makes it harder to identify gender.

When one is transitioning, it usually requires other actions such as clothing selection, binding, electro or surgery to hide the strong traits of ones genetic gender heritage.

Look at me. My breasts are growing but I still have hairy legs and a flat butt. If I wanted to look androgynous, this wouldn't be the path at all. I'm sure some people want to mix it up like this, but I think most people who want to look in-between want to do so by reducing what they got, not leaving what they got and adding more.

For someone who wants to look androgynous, I think the best options are surgery, exercise, fashion, and for genetic males, probably some makeup.

[Guest nelo]

"If female, you want some more muscle and a leaner body shape but not necessarily facial hair and your voice breaking."

I do want my voice to break... if by that you mean get lower... to be in a more androgynous range... really, that and top surgery would pretty much get me where I want. So... not good to assume. I know quite a few androgynes that want the voice through T. And my shape is already lean enough... as far as fat distribution goes... not much hips. That's... not a big deal to me. I'd just be afraid I'd start growing facial hair before my voice drops, because I don't think you can really see the facial hair coming... until it's too late?

But yeah, I have considered going on hormones, then off, but there are the permanent effects, and the not so permanent effects. Just gotta research... go for what you want... hormones are definitely not out of the question, whether for permanent or temporary usage.

And I saw something about libido... some people don't care about that. Like asexuals. Actually, I a bit worried about the opposite, as T can raise libido.

Oh, and I'm worried about the acne. I already have acne on my back and body... I worry about what actually taking T would do to me.

But really, there are enough resources, androgyne ftm or mtf or intersex or whatever, as long as we are all informed, I say go for the hormones. I know at least for females if you stop taking T, the estrogen will just start up again, no biggie.

And of course, always take the hormones legally with doctor supervision... that helps... it's not like I would dare just... I dunno, buy it off the streets or whatever.

Though I do hope to find a therapist/doctor open minded enough that wouldn't mind me just getting top surgery, or taking lower does of T, etc. etc.

[Guest Hydraxide]

Look at me. My breasts are growing but I still have hairy legs and a flat butt. If I wanted to look androgynous, this wouldn't be the path at all. I'm sure some people want to mix it up like this, but I think most people who want to look in-between want to do so by reducing what they got, not leaving what they got and adding more.

For someone who wants to look androgynous, I think the best options are surgery, exercise, fashion, and for genetic males, probably some makeup.

I'm curious Jo, how far do you plan to go? The whole hog?

[Guest Jo-I-Dunno]

I'm curious Jo, how far do you plan to go? The whole hog?

Sorry I've been gone so long. Busy.

Uhhhh, I don't really know for sure. I know the direction I want to go but not my final destination. My desires change on an hourly basis. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be on a full course of hormones the rest of my life, and I'm not going to consider any surgeries until I know how far hormones alone ultimately take me. But full HRT doesn't mean full transition in my opinion. Unless my breasts get huge or I get a great hourglass figure, I think I'll always be some kind of male, at least part time if not most of the time. In my case, it's more about how I feel than how I want others to see me.

[Guest shiinee]

Personally I don't aim for "the in between" so much as an absence of physical sex markers.  I don't want breasts, wide hips, large muscles, facial hair, or prominent genitals.  Same basic body type as a pre-pubescent child, just more mature.  Since I am FAAB that means blocking or diminishing the estrogen my body produces.  I'm looking into high dose progesterone birth control to down regulate estrogen, but I haven't been able to get any treatment yet because of my depression.  Using T seems like it would be a bad plan for me, because it will give me even more sex markers that I would rather lose.  I'm willing to experiment with other things that don't have permanent effects.  Anything that permanently adds sex characteristics is a very last resort.

For the male andro, taking AAs without replacement sex hormones is not very wise in the long run as it can cause skeletal weakness and other knock-on effects.

That's effectively what I want for myself.  My ideal state would have low or no sex hormones.  I realize it's "not very wise" but none the less it is what I want.  I can't let my dreams be crushed without trying by a side effect, even one that puts me in danger of sickness/death.  I favor quality of life over quantity.

HRT is a bad idea for crossdressers, autogynopheliacs and androgyne people - anyone who wants to remain male brained while gaining a feminine body.

My mind is neither male nor female and my body should be the same.  It may be that I shouldn't be using the word androgyne then and should stick with my favorite "neutrois".  I'm mostly posting in this forum because it's active and I feel similar to some of the posters here.  Still, I don't think that all here relate to cross dressers or want a sexual kind of satisfaction.  

For someone who wants to look androgynous, I think the best options are surgery, exercise, fashion, and for genetic males, probably some makeup

.

Not to pick on you but this bothers me a little.  I don't want to look androgynous, I want to BE androgynous inside and out.  I'm willing to consider surgery for that, but I'm not going to cut my hair short or change the way I dress just to reach something that appears closer to the middle.  Other people can interpret me as they like, I just want to be happy in my own skin.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Twenty two months on HRT. I am NOT male anymore. I am certainly not androgynous. I cannot PASS as male anymore. It seems to me there is a certain urban legend a person CAN get on hormones and achieve certain results and not others.

I know HRT causes you to transition fully. You may stop along the way - but you are not getting the full results, neither the ones you may desire nor the ones you do not want. You have simply compromised.

I still say - HRT is for MTF transsexual transition and does not do, cannot do, what crossdressers and androgyne think it does: give breasts and a more female shape without changing the libido and mindset. I cannot comment on T because I am not doing that regimine

Personal experience... say what you will.

That is all I have to say on this matter (Forrest Gump).

Lizzy

[Guest April63]

There really is no in between, or even genderless transition. Hormones push toward the two opposite extremes.Hormones don't make compromises either. Stopping in the middle of HRT probably isn't very safe, and your internal chemistry will be all messed up if you do it. Your best option would be to work with your appearance and mannerisms to appear gender neutral. You can easily change those, while your body isn't quite so easy.

[Guest Riam]

I am biologically female, and plan to take a low dose of hormones for a while. I do want my voice to get somewhat deeper, and other changes, I just don't want to stay on T so long that I'll look completely male and will never be taken as female. Just kind of in between. I have heard stories of people who have accomplished this successfully. Low dose makes the changes come slower, so when I am satisfied I will stop.

[Guest stranger]

I'm not sure there's any way to get my body to look the way I'd like to...and ultimately I don't feel a really strong urge to roll the dice on hormones-at most I might see what, if anything at all, DHEA does to my bio-female body. And probably not much-it's not a very powerful androgen.

Other than that, I just intend to keep on with the getting in better shape, and maybe invest in some high impact sports bras.

Being androgyne seems to be more about the way I think of myself, the way I present to others...and I want to get accepted as what I feel myself to be inside.

(I got pegged as female at the hardware store today, while wearing my ballcap and hoping to I.D. as male. Not sure if it's because I have a really female-looking face and body...or they just get a lot of really butch lesbians browsing the hardware store. Could be both?)

[Guest Orva26]

I'm pretty fortunate. When I look inside myself, in my heart, there's nothing screaming I'm a boy or girl. For me, HRT is like... exercise or plastic surgery. People do all kinds of things to their bodies because they have an ideal self-image in mind and want to pursue it. I'm not becoming a girl on the outside because I'm a girl on the inside. I'm becoming a girl on the outside because... that's what I just want to look like. It's my ideal self-image. Just as people want to look skinny, muscular, large-breasted, whatever.

This is very interesting to me because it is kind of how I've been thinking for a while. My big gripe is that I'm not sure that being a girl is my ideal self image or if it is the one I should be pursuing. I know I'm going to need therapy to figure that out but I'm thinking that even with that I might have to try androgyny first. I'm not sure overall, I know I want some of the feminizing effects of hormones but I'm not sure about some of the other effects. The bigger issue is I'm not sure if I socially want to be recognized and conform to the expectations of being female. Hmmm... I guess if I could have a feminized body and still behave the way I always have then I'd be happy.

[Guest Patsy]

Twenty two months on HRT. I am NOT male anymore. I am certainly not androgynous. I cannot PASS as male anymore. It seems to me there is a certain urban legend a person CAN get on hormones and achieve certain results and not others.

I know HRT causes you to transition fully. You may stop along the way - but you are not getting the full results, neither the ones you may desire nor the ones you do not want. You have simply compromised.

I still say - HRT is for MTF transsexual transition and does not do, cannot do, what crossdressers and androgyne think it does: give breasts and a more female shape without changing the libido and mindset. I cannot comment on T because I am not doing that regimine

Personal experience... say what you will.

That is all I have to say on this matter (Forrest Gump).

Lizzy

I had this discussion quite recently with someone, and I agree totally, Lizzy.

Some utterly bizarre ideas doing the rounds out there!

Patsy

[Guest Donna Jean]

.

I still feel that this start/stopping of HRT is what I I would consider "experimenting"

But, I also say.... that a consenting adult should be allowed to do what ever they want within the law, though...

I'm MTF and I'm going all they way...that's what I expect to happen...I've signed the releases and I know what I'm in for...

Donna Jean

[Guest KimberlyF]

I don't get a lot of this but that doesn't matter. If you get a doctor to give you HRT I don't care what you're goals are. I believe there are physical changes to the senses, but I don't but into the whole brain becoming female and that causing a conflict. I could see the feminizing effects doing that. But 40 plus years of T didn't turn my brain male. The physical changes from the T were pretty stressful to my system.

[Guest Orva26]

I still say - HRT is for MTF transsexual transition and does not do, cannot do, what crossdressers and androgyne think it does: give breasts and a more female shape without changing the libido and mindset.

While there is truth in this, it has been kind of bugging me. Hormones might not be able to produce physical changes without effecting the mind but I really don't think that means the only use for them should be MTF transsexual transition. As an autogynophilic kind of cross-dresser I think I might benefit from hormone usage, not 100% as a lot of transsexuals seem to be but I think it needs to be an avenue that everyone can pursue if they understand the risk. Though I know that there will be mental effects and an effect on libido I do not think it is a given that a person who is fairly sexual before HRT will end up with completely no libido. I know plenty of natal females that have a sex-drive that makes me look like a saint so I see no reason why someone going through HRT or who has gone through HRT could not have the same thing.

I'm in full agreement with Donna Jean that starting/stopping hormones is a form of experimenting and that is something some people may need to do. I also agree with Kimberly that if T can't make a MTF brain male during their life then there it is not an absolute truth that estrogen will do the reverse.

[Guest Micha]

Yeah, perhaps it is an experiment. Because how many people do you talk to who are transgernder, desire hormones, and don't wish to "fully" transition? IE how many transgender people are not transexuals and are not "no ho/no op"? It's real easy to say "this is what transexuals do, it's not for anyone else." But is that really fair? Gender queer, gender fluid, neutrois and androgynes are still transgender, even if we're different from what seems to me as the majority of trans people.

Hormones are different than getting a piercing or trying to lose weight, the effects are more significant and permanent. But I'm in agreement with DJ, an adult who's well informed can make their own decisions on what to do with their own body. To say hormones is just for a "transitioning mtf/ftm" seems unfair to me. Like kay, so androgynes aren't transexuals, so what? We don't transition? We're not dysphoric? We should settle for our bodies as is? Not cool. Jus' cuz it's a new idea, or isn't common, doesn't mean it's weird or should be shunned. Give it time and new levels of "transition" with hormones may be found. And if not, if people try it and like their results, what's it to anyone else?

[Guest Patsy]

Hormones are different than getting a piercing or trying to lose weight, the effects are more significant and permanent. But I'm in agreement with DJ, an adult who's well informed can make their own decisions on what to do with their own body. To say hormones is just for a "transitioning mtf/ftm" seems unfair to me. Like kay, so androgynes aren't transexuals, so what? We don't transition? We're not dysphoric? We should settle for our bodies as is? Not cool. Jus' cuz it's a new idea, or isn't common, doesn't mean it's weird or should be shunned. Give it time and new levels of "transition" with hormones may be found. And if not, if people try it and like their results, what's it to anyone else?

Good points all, Micha, and it certainly wasn't my intention to suggest, or appear to be suggesting, that Estrogen is the exclusive domain of we MTF's.

In the instance I was referring to in reply to Lizzy,iIt was quite clear to me that the person concerned was completely oblivious to the physical effects,

let alone the effect on libido, etc.

HRT is a specific medical regimen to address a specific problem....not a lifestyle accessory.

Luv,

Patsy

[Guest stranger]

I would just like to say:

Dysphoria has added to the depression that is currently wiping the floor with my butt.

And that is all.

[Guest Micha]

Good points all, Micha, and it certainly wasn't my intention to suggest, or appear to be suggesting, that Estrogen is the exclusive domain of we MTF's.

In the instance I was referring to in reply to Lizzy,iIt was quite clear to me that the person concerned was completely oblivious to the physical effects,

let alone the effect on libido, etc.

HRT is a specific medical regimen to address a specific problem....not a lifestyle accessory.

Luv,

Patsy

Wasn't responding specifically to you, just the idea that HRT is only for transexuals. Participants in this thread are hardly ignorant, and with everything I've read in this topic, it just rubbed my nerves wrong that someone would say it. 20+ months HRT for a transwoman who is "going all the way" is a lot of experience, but not the only experience; and I will not accept that someone who hated the androgynous phase of their transition is really one to tell androgynes who are not ignorant what they can and can not do. I mean, I respect the intention, no one wants anyone to get hurt. But it bugs me. Anyone else with questions gets "it's best to talk to a therapist." In this thread, it's a loud, resounding "NO!"

I give, there are mixed responses, but none so direct. I mean, here, the responses in this thread already acknowledge the risks, the cons, the reasons to proceed with caution or not to proceed at all. But to be told:

HRT is for MTF transsexual transition and does not do, cannot do, what crossdressers and androgyne think it does:

That upset me.

Hell.

I know HRT causes you to transition fully. You may stop along the way - but you are not getting the full results, neither the ones you may desire nor the ones you do not want. You have simply compromised.

You would have compromised. You're not genderqueer. You're a woman. What you call compromise someone else may call ideal. Your goals are clearly defined, you know what you want. Good for you. Not everyone can say the same. There are people who are trying and doing what you call compromise. Seems to be working for them. Is that bad? Is that a problem? If they're happy and healthy, what's the issue?

I guess what I'm really reacting to though is a vibe, how much transgender seems to be taken as transexual. That's not all of it, transexuals aren't the only one's who are transgender (and I know, no one literally said they were, like I said, it's a vibe, a feeling from a whole of collected experience). No one's fault, but yeah, all it took was one comment to unearth that negativity in me.

[Guest KimberlyF]

I guess what I'm really reacting to though is a vibe, how much transgender seems to be taken as transexual. That's not all of it, transexuals aren't the only one's who are transgender (and I know, no one literally said they were, like I said, it's a vibe, a feeling from a whole of collected experience). No one's fault, but yeah, all it took was one comment to unearth that negativity in me.

I totally get what you're saying. It has to be hard. This site was started by a TS and most of the people here seem to be TS which is really not the norm. I have been on a few boards over the decades where the VAST majority were crossdressers and there were a couple of transsexuals and it was hard to feel like we mattered. We had a lot in common and yet in ways we were so different.

Kim

[Guest Elizabeth K]

"Though I know that there will be mental effects and an effect on libido I do not think it is a given that a person who is fairly sexual before HRT will end up with completely no libido. I know plenty of natal females that have a sex-drive that makes me look like a saint so I see no reason why someone going through HRT or who has gone through HRT could not have the same thing."

Addressing HRT (not adding T, which is different)

I think there is a misunderstanding here, which kinda causes what looks like a difference of opinion, when there is really none.

I wrote:

I still say - HRT is for MTF transsexual transition and does not do, cannot do, what crossdressers and androgyne think it does: give breasts and a more female shape without changing the libido and mindset.

Now what is meant is what so many crossdressers and androgyne have written to me, that they wish to use the HRT regimen to be more FEMININE. They then go on to mention such things as breasts and female body shape and face. I always reply HRT does not make you FEMININE - it makes you FEMALE. I am saying HRT is not just a physical change mechanism, it is all inclusive.

Males operate on testosterone as the dominate sexual hormone, women operate on estrogen. Both have trace amounts of the other. Various people sometimes have an imbalance or a genetic predisposition one way or the other, or no balance at all. Body types sometimes even react differently.

So we are all over the place naturally with hormones, but tend toward a standard, being male or being female in appearance PRIMARILY based on testosterone or estrogen - all that.

BUT

HRT as a tool for treatment of gender dysphoria is a reversal of what is naturally occuring. HRT is NOT for adding estrogen, it is adding estrogen and retarding testosterone with testosterone blockers. So all HRT is basically doing is changing a 'male' chemistry into a 'female' chemistry. What does that do? It makes you FEMALE.

So can you just go halfway?

Can you just go far enough to get what you want without going all the way? No. If you stop HRT your testosterone kicks back in and you get a reversal... mostly. But read the research on stopping HRT. Breast material shrinks some but tends to stay obvious (what is wanted, some say) but, your sterility as a male is usually permanent. And you may not get the old male libido back. And your mind changes, does this reverse? Not enough research to know.

AND

How do you know how to balance a 'partial' HRT regime? How do you know sterility and mind changes won't come way early in the useage - WAY before you get the body change benefits you want?

It took two years for my breasts to develop. It took two months before my moods completely changed. I lost my male libido in the first two months. If I had only wanted the breast development on HRT, I would have been disappointed.

And I say your libido CHANGES - not that it goes away. You are changed into having a woman's chemistry - eventually giving you a female libido. THAT hapened to me. I have NO male function - and yet men suddenly seen very interesting! When did that happen- about a year and a half after starting.

So that is what I meant.

I really don't think HRT is for non-transitioning people.

Sorry, and not for some snobby reason. I strongly feel transpeople, intersexed, androgyne, CDers - read my posts - are all very valid to the community. I just don't think HRT does what an androgyne person or crossdresser desires.

Lizzy

[Guest Orva26]

And I say your libido CHANGES - not that it goes away. You are changed into having a woman's chemistry - eventually giving you a female libido. THAT hapened to me. I have NO male function - and yet men suddenly seen very interesting! When did that happen- about a year and a half after starting.

Ah! So I was right, well kind of. I've got to say that lately I've been thinking that a female libido would be awesome! From what I've read and seen it seems much more developed, almost wholesome compared to a male one. I'm not even sure how much of a male one I've had to begin with. But that is something I could write a book like post about.

I think there might have been some slight miss-communication as you suggested as what really kind of bugged me wasn't your view itself but how frankly it was said I guess. I still do disagree with you on some things.

Even knowing that the function of HRT is to chemically, and physically feminize the body I still think it needs to be open as an option for everyone. I am well aware that the risk and potential harm it could cause are heightened for individuals who are not transsexual and do not 100% know that it is right for them but I still believe the option needs to be open to everyone. I don't think going to a GT and saying something like, "I'm androgynous" or "I'm a cross-dresser" or "I'm mentally androgynous but would like a female body" or anything else for that matter should dis-qualify an individual from getting HRT in anyway. What should is the actual content of therapy and if it turns out they figure out that HRT is not for them.

And as Micha said, if someone finds a stopping point they want that is medically safe and feasible I don't see why (bearing the potential for injury) they can't stay there. It'll probably be a challenge to not fully transition from a biological standpoint but the real judge of that are people with MD's.

Now I do respect your opinion and understand that it comes from much more experience and time in the community than I have had. But I strongly feel that HRT needs to be open to everyone, provided they understand the risk. Might my view cause some people hurt if embraced by the medical community? Sure it will but at the same time it'll give some people that last push they need to make it to self actualization and that is really what the whole journey wherever it ends is about.