Pet Peeve Sitting Nxt To Transgender Girl At Bar

[Guest Ann Onymous]

Well, this has been confusing to me.

Having read the posts here, I get the feeling that I shouldn't bring up the fact that I am trans or, by asking advice, imply that they are trans, or even ask if we could be friends due to our similarity?

Simply because one shares a similar medical condition does not mean that compatibility exists for the purpose of a social relationship. It certainly is not the way one begins a conversation in the bar setting...

What good would that be? How am I to make contacts? I have found no support groups where I live and this club, that I had hopes for, now, according to what I read, would not be the ideal for making contacts?

Making contacts related to trans-related issues is no different than making contacts in any other facet of life...they take time and cannot be successfully forced. In other words, it may take several trips to that particular club before people feel comfortable even moving beyond a cursory 'hello' with you.

In the context of a bar, you would probably do best to become friendly with the bartender or bartendress...especially during slower periods of bar operation. If there is someone to hook you up with, they can generally accomplish that task.

This does not make sense to me. Don't you want to help those who are not as far along as you, if they ask? Isn't that why this site exists? If we can ask for and receive advice here, why not out there? I mean, by all means I would be discrete, but if I were to ask for help from someone who odviously has more experience than I, why would a trans-person be offended?

I do understand, that if you have succeeded in your transition and are now blending quite well that you don't want to be "outed" publicly in any way. If, however, you visit a bar that is LGBT friendly and it is known that trans-people frequent this club, why are you shocked to have a trans-person approach you?

speaking from my own experiences, if I am in a LGB bar, it is NOT for the purpose of being the community support contact. I am there because it is a lesbian-friendly bar. There is a very significant difference in posing questions or seeking guidance in the anonymity of the interwebz versus putting someone on the spot in a public setting (and potentially interfering with MY socializing).

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is the way I see things...

[Guest Lizzie McTrucker]

nor has it encouraged me to seek support.

..and that, unfortunatly, would be a step backwards.

But hey, the road to transition is paved (?) with pot holes along the way. (how does one pave pot holes, Liz?) Just because that was her experience where she is, doesn't mean that you'll have the same experience where you live. You might go to a bar just for the intention of being out there as yourself and be approached by another girl who in the course of conversation maybe she brings it up that she's trans, or you decide to tell her you're trans and you two may hit it off. You won't know if you don't try. Who knows, maybe your experience will be the same as the OP's...but it might not.

I think the #1 rule that was broken that I think everyone will agree with here: Consider the other lady is a regular woman unless she decides to tell you otherwise. Consider this: how do you think Krisina would feel if she was born a natal female and a T-girl at the bar thought she was trans?

Also, and this is handy in a covert way. Say you're in Krisina's position originally at the bar. You're sitting there having a drink of your choosing and the lady next to you reads you and outs you. Now instead of acting shocked, put on a sly smile and ask her "What makes you think I'm trans?" Maybe she just assumed you were. Maybe, just maybe, you could be unintentionally giving off some kind of clue or vibe that you may not be aware of that she picked up on...and then you can go home that night and figure out a way to fix that! Maybe it's something really obvious ("uh, you forgot to shave your mustache"). Maybe it's something you're aware of but there's no way to fix it. ("well you have large hands") or maybe it was something you pulled from the male days that doesn't work in your female days ("you're totally holding that beer bottle like a guy").

I dunno, just some late night thoughts I had about this thread.

[Guest Krisina]

Shari May 8 2011 3:55 pm wrote:

I wish this conversation was happening in person. I am really interested in this. I have an opinion, but, it seems to change with each new reply (that only reflects my inexperience).

Thank you Krisina for bringing it up. It's important to understand our unique etiquette challenges.

Shari

Your welcome Shari

With each posting it has been making me think about my original posting and re evaluate my original reaction,my original post. Gay Lesbian Trans friendly bars are supposed to be just that friendly. She could have been reaching out, she was certainly nice and friendly and making recommendations for me on some stuff and gave me her phone number too. Some peoples personalities are more reserved and others more open. I shouldn't worry about it too much because she may really find it hard to find others like her who are in the transgender community. If I was a gay male or female and I was out at a gay bar, wouldn't it be good of me to show some understanding that others that come to a place might come their and have a fear of being found out if they were in the closet? Same applying to people who are transgender who come their because it is one of the few places they will feel at ease. A place where they will feel welcome and be able to be themselves without the walls protecting them from others in society who might not be so accepting of them. I certainly know the first few times I went to a gay bar I was worried people who might know me might see me going in their. I was confused about myself things being in-congruent trying to figure myself out. Some of my reaction to her coming up to me might be from my lack of experience socializing in clubs for so many years with new people? Not sure, but trying to figure things out.

Karen K May 8 2011 07:04 PM wrote:

Well, this has been confusing to me.

I am gaining experience at being "myself", little by little. A day here and a day there, whenever I can get them. All on my own, I might add.

I have heard that there is a LGBT friendly bar/night club nearby, and I have further heard that there is a number of trans-girls that hang out there. I have been planning to go to this bar, in hopes of finding new friends and receiving some sort of support.

Having read the posts here, I get the feeling that I shouldn't bring up the fact that I am trans or, by asking advice, imply that they are trans, or even ask if we could be friends due to our similarity?

What good would that be? How am I to make contacts? I have found no support groups where I live and this club, that I had hopes for, now, according to what I read, would not be the ideal for making contacts?

This does not make sense to me. Don't you want to help those who are not as far along as you, if they ask? Isn't that why this site exists? If we can ask for and receive advice here, why not out there? I mean, by all means I would be discrete, but if I were to ask for help from someone who odviously has more experience than I, why would a trans-person be offended?

I do understand, that if you have succeeded in your transition and are now blending quite well that you don't want to be "outed" publicly in any way. If, however, you visit a bar that is LGBT friendly and it is known that trans-people frequent this club, why are you shocked to have a trans-person approach you?

Have I gotten the wrong vibe here?....

...I tell you this thread has done nothing to bolster my confidence nor has it encouraged me to seek support.

Laura Jane

Karen (Laura Jane)

First of all I would like to congratulate you on gaining experience on being yourself little by little all on your own. That is not easy to do at all! I hope after more posts that your confidence will be back up and you will be encouraged to seek support too! I hope you read this post too.

I'm re evaluating what I had said, their has been so much back and forth discussion on this and point of views. I really am not used to going out to clubs. I am in my 40's and despite my age and experience and wisdom or lack of it sometimes too I am not used to going out in that sort of environment as myself. I have just gone out to the club over here a few times. A lot of it has to do with me and my inexperience and just trying to figure things out probably.

I think it would be good to go to the gay bar and to look at making new friends and ask for advice etc. I'm re evaluating all of this stuff. What should I do differently the next time someone approaches me etc. It is after all a gay lesbian bi transgender "friendly" bar. So I am trying to think of what I would do if I were in your shoes Karen. Would I start a conversation with a transgender person complimenting them on their appearance then maybe ask I could ask them about where I could get support? Pass them a letter asking them if it would be all right to ask som transgender questions on where to get support or for some help? Would I ask them if it's alright if I asked them some transgender questions if they didn't mind trying to say it where other people wouldn't hear it and explain that I am struggling without support etc. If it were at a regular social place maybe the best thing would be just to leave them be? but this is a place (GLBT bar) where transgender folks should be able to be themselves. I am trying to put more thought into my words and actions on all of this. I don't think I am very successful sometimes like this social stuff and right now I feel like I am so behind on stuff on how to think of interacting with people. Putting my foot in my mouth comes to mind.

Sally May 8 2011 07:18 pm wrote

We sometimes are our own greatest enemies - part of our isolation is indeed self imposed.

Love ya,

Sally

Yes sometimes we are and in so many ways too!

Ann Onymous May 8 2011 7:33 pm wrote

Simply because one shares a similar medical condition does not mean that compatibility exists for the purpose of a social relationship. It certainly is not the way one begins a conversation in the bar setting...

....speaking from my own experiences, if I am in a LGB bar, it is NOT for the purpose of being the community support contact. I am there because it is a lesbian-friendly bar. There is a very significant difference in posing questions or seeking guidance in the anonymity of the interwebz versus putting someone on the spot in a public setting (and potentially interfering with MY socializing).

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is the way I see things...

It is really interesting reading all these points of view. Yes we may share a similar medical condition but how we deal with it on a personal level we are all so very different because of how we have been shaped or molded by people or events in our life let alone just being different in our personalities. Just like the huge variety of people around us every day in life. But that is a good thing isn't it? I have read things here that I had not thought about. It keeps me thinking about all of this stuff and that is a good thing. I hope I didn't go over board on the quotations on this post as I wanted to reply to a bunch of posts all at once :-)

Krisina

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Well, this has been confusing to me.

I am gaining experience at being "myself", little by little. A day here and a day there, whenever I can get them. All on my own, I might add.

I have heard that there is a LGBT friendly bar/night club nearby, and I have further heard that there is a number of trans-girls that hang out there. I have been planning to go to this bar, in hopes of finding new friends and receiving some sort of support.

Having read the posts here, I get the feeling that I shouldn't bring up the fact that I am trans or, by asking advice, imply that they are trans, or even ask if we could be friends due to our similarity?

What good would that be? How am I to make contacts? I have found no support groups where I live and this club, that I had hopes for, now, according to what I read, would not be the ideal for making contacts?

This does not make sense to me. Don't you want to help those who are not as far along as you, if they ask? Isn't that why this site exists? If we can ask for and receive advice here, why not out there? I mean, by all means I would be discrete, but if I were to ask for help from someone who odviously has more experience than I, why would a trans-person be offended?

I do understand, that if you have succeeded in your transition and are now blending quite well that you don't want to be "outed" publicly in any way. If, however, you visit a bar that is LGBT friendly and it is known that trans-people frequent this club, why are you shocked to have a trans-person approach you?

Have I gotten the wrong vibe here? I would not want to be guilty of "outing" a sister even if I have innocent intentions. Perhaps, I should wait for one of them to approach me? But this dosen't seem like a good idea either. Please tell me I have gotten this wrong, but it seems as if this is all about protecting your identity, which I am all for, and to hell with everyone else. How should I approach a transwoman? Do I have to slip her a note, like in grade school? What is the etiquet here?

I tell you this thread has done nothing to bolster my confidence nor has it encouraged me to seek support.

Laura Jane

Honey - some transitioned women want NOTHING to do with an obvious beginner because they want to be stealth. That's just how it is, sorry to say.

.........................

People! If you go to a trans bar that is one thing. If you go to a gay bar with 'possible' trans people that is another thing.

Look at it this way - you present at your best - you feel you look as natal as any woman. Yet someone comes up to you because you are 'read' and says 'nice wig, and the breast forms look really natural, and I LOVE those false eyelashes?' How do you feel?

But if someone comes up and asks if you look like you are new, do you wanna share a drink? Does NOT 'out you' in an obvious way?

Which is better?

Also if you are alone as a woman in a trans bar - you are assumed to be trans, probably, just by your body language and your nervousness, but also because you are THERE. Duh - a transperson bar

If you are a lone woman in a gay bar, you are obviously misplaced or gay/lesbian yourself. You will either be ignored or hit on. This is especially if you are the non-flamboyant T-Girl like most of us. The Drag Queen type outrageous T-Girl will get the attention - usually because she is assumed to be a man in drag, and probably gay.

Combination GLBT clubs? Usually anything goes - don't worry.

There is another situation - a lone woman in a lesbian bar. Check with the bartender to make sure the place is transfriendly. You can get hurt.

A straight bar? You get outed by a TS or CDer person - BAD.

So why worry so much. Use common sense. Don't 'out' someone because (1) they may resent it, (2) you could be mistaken. If you get publicly outed, you can either get mad and leave or you can hide your irritation and settle down to talk, knowing now EVERYONE who overheard now knows the two of you are trans. Your choice.

To make contact - just be subtle. Act like the other person is natal - and the two of you are just women talking.

LIZZY! How do you know all this? I checked out the New Orleans scene. Clubbing is not really for me - not as a single woman. My real choice is to go with my partner - especially the trans friendly Lesbian bar - so we can dance! In the Quarter - everything is within walking distance so it's cool! Just make sure, if drinking, there is a designated driver.

[Guest Marie E.]

Very interesting thread. No matter how we look at this subject it comes down to respect and having the wisdom to know when your opinion is welcomed or needed. I'm a firm believer in individuality because while we are all similar we are quite different. When we are in a close relationship of any type we have a right to speak openly with our opinions of how that person acts and dresses that's part of a relationship. But when it is involving a person you do not know it is best to keep your opinions to yourself unless asked for. Without knowing a person how would you know your opinion wouldn't cause that person to become stressful? We all have different wants and needs, likes and dislikes. What works for one might not work for another. It just comes down to engaging your brain into wisdom mode so you can understand every situation before opening your mouth. Life out in the bars and clubs is totally different than lets say this forum which is a place for your opinion. It's just a matter of respect and being wise when it comes to others and understanding each situation you maybe in. I believe this is a good thread because it has the potential for learning and understanding. Be wise and smile a lot.

J. Marie

[JJ]

Okay-the amazing thing here is how much each person is bringing their own agenda to it and reading their feelings into it.

When I wrote I was negative and critical of this woman and I still am-here is why. For any woman to critique another when they have first met is an act of aggression and considered very rude. That is one of the iron clad rules of women's society you learn early on. Nice women don't do it. If she had been asked it would be another matter and even then frankly unless you are good friends you lie. I may be a man but I lived in a woman's society for over half a century. I've dealt with people in different parts of the country in every level of society-and come across women who were aggressive in this way as well. It was always seen as aggressive and unacceptable.

Soliciting for sex in Craigs's list is also an in your face act very foreign to normal female behavior. And flat out unsafe. It is a clue to who this woman is. Certainly she has the right to do it. We have the right to have opinions about it. But it is a red flag to almost any woman .

As far as heels-there are ways to wear heels that say-"Oh I feel pretty and girly and sexy in these shoes" and ways that say "Look I'll do as I please and I know it makes me look bad.Up yours! " It's all in the body language. Given the other types of behavior this woman has engaged in I would bet her body language was the latter and brought about the criticism. Again she has the right-but we have the right to have opinions. Without seeing the body language we can't really judge.

I will say with no doubt or hesitation that a woman who puts herself out in an ad on Craig's list is no tender little flower seeking help with her gender role or confusion. She wasn't seeking support. She broke the social rules trans or not. She also broke trans protocol. Maybe she wasn't aware-just maybe-but unless she is new to the scene how likely is that really?

I am sure that had she handled this differently she could have gotten support rather than criticism. Why discuss such sensitive things in such a public forum when she could have asked for a phone number or given hers and arranged to meet to discuss trans issues in a more appropriate time and place than a public bar? Especially when it had to do with someone else's appearance. If she felt compelled to help, was interested in offering help she would have arranged it differently would have sought permission for the conversation at the very least. That isn't trans protocol-that is basic human manners.

I think this woman's attitude, approach and body language caused Krisina's deserved criticism of her. and I think this thread has been good because it points us how much we bring of our own issues to viewing a situation.

By the way girls there is nothing sexier or more attractive than self confidence. You may as Lizzy said get attention from 5" heels when you are over 6 feet but if it makes you feel beautiful then go for it. It's only wrong when done as a slap in the face to those around you. We've all seen people do that in the way they dress one way or another. Many of us want to just be our gender and blend but some of us want to stand out. bothing wrong with either one.

Love ya'll

John

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Agree with JJ - except perhaps 'agenda' is kinda strong. I suggest it is more like a reaction with personal feelings = opinion. This makes for a lively discussion - which is good.

I just want to be me. I don't want people outing me without my consent, that's all. I will gladly help another CDer or T-Man or T-Girl or whatever gender dysphoric condition may be affecting them - or even if they are just questioning. BUT, I prefer it to be in private.

This is just what I am, and I doubt I will ever be totally stealth. As Sally said, I lived a lie too long. But I seemingly do just fine as the woman I have finally become - so why advertise? No big sign on me: "TRANSSEXUAL HERE"... grin.

I also do not go to clubs or bars to socialize by meeting new people - but that is just me. I will go with a partner or a group, but my body language will be, "LEAVE ME ALONE" to strangers. I meet tons of transpeople, Gays and Lesbian through my GLBT and PFLAG association - and now (strangely) through my church. My therapist introduces me to other TGirls and those who are questioning and seeking to meet a transperson.

But I am older, perhaps have old fashioned ways of thinking. Plus, New Orleans is a PARTY CITY and everyone knows how to have a good time without hurting or embarrassing anyone.

Some of you live in more isolated areas, and I suspect many do not have support groups. That complicates things.

Sill, I would really be afraid to get too close to a TGirl who (1) doesn't know trans-protocol (2) advertises for men on Craig's List - WHOA! But who knows, maybe they have a heart of gold! Like in the movies?

Lizzy

[Drea]

Okay-the amazing thing here is how much each person is bringing their own agenda to it and reading their feelings into it.

Such is the norm for humans

I may be a man but I lived in a woman's society for over half a century. I've dealt with people in different parts of the country in every level of society-and come across women who were aggressive in this way as well. It was always seen as aggressive and unacceptable.

Likewise with MTF, they grew up and were socialized in a man's world.

When I wrote I was negative and critical of this woman and I still am-here is why. For any woman to critique another when they have first met is an act of aggression and considered very rude. That is one of the iron clad rules of women's society you learn early on. Nice women don't do it.

It takes years for many MTF to learn these things about female socilization and then to a large degree it doesn't happen till well into transiiton. To judge a MTF's motivations based strictly upon female socilization may be valid since they are women and such is the best way to learm. On the other hand, some recognition that, well they are comming from an entirely different place in socialization and life experience it sometimes in order.

Then one needs to consider that not all MTF ae the same. However they may self identify there are those who may be more male oriented and those more female oriented. Some may have no interested in resocialization, some may be totally female socialized.

It just seems to me that there is so many different outlooks one can never know. That does not mean situations aren't any less uncomfortable. It is just with all the differences, one can't expect all to act in a certain way.

She also broke trans protocol.

Curious what protocol that is. I must have missed that day at the support group.

[JJ]

Drea I am really surprised at the sarcasm that seems to be in this question but perhaps that is my misinterpretation . If you read the posts above mine you will see that the phrase trans protocol has been used repeatedly to refer to the practice of not outing another trans person. Particularly in such a public place.

As far as male or female socialization i was speaking from my direct experience but I believe-and could be wrong since my knowledge is second hand-that a man who walked up to another man on a bar and began to criticize his appearance would also be seen as inappropriate and starting trouble to the extent that a bar fight could result. under some circumstances.

Nor did I intend to in any way or level imply that all MtF or the same. Just that some behaviors are outside accepted norms common to MOST but certainly not all of society. I am surprised anyone familiar with my posts and views would think I meant to imply all MyFs are alike since I have frequently protested that there is no "all" to anything.

And as far as this thread having posts with people reading things into it I meant that it been more than usual. My opinion. Sometimes things that are posted have the opposite effect and unite us in a common feeling-Also of course human nature.

What I don't understand is the intensity of some of the responses. Or the tone.

[Guest Donna Jean]

.

She also broke trans protocol.

Curious what protocol that is. I must have missed that day at the support group.

Uh......that would be the protocol where you don't out other Trans people...

(that was on the third day.....)

Huggs

Donna Jean

[Guest Karen K]

If I came of as hostile, angry, or intense, I am surely sorry, and I have sent a pm to Krisina appologizing as well.

Reading all the positions and counter-positions had me bewildered and dismayed. I am all better now.

Lizzy said,

"I meet tons of transpeople, Gays and Lesbian through my GLBT and PFLAG association - and now (strangely) through my church. My therapist introduces me to other TGirls and those who are questioning and seeking to meet a transperson."

Also,

"Some of you live in more isolated areas, and I suspect many do not have support groups. That complicates things."

This is true in my area and yes, it greatly complicate my transition. No matter how I word the search, I can not find any local groups, PFLAG or LGBT. There are, however, two local GLBT friendly establishments in town, and these are my best hope. Now that I know a little more, about interacting with other transwomen, I will be more discrete and possibly let them approach me and/or get to know the barkeep.

Thank you all, and forgive me if I have offended any of you.

Laura Jane

P.S. My therapist did introduce me to another local t-girl and I thought we were quickly becoming friends. I had opened my door to her, in the wee hours, as she needed support and comfort. But, when I called for support, several times, and texted her, several times, she has not answered any of my requests nor has she returned made any attempt at communications. It has been over four weeks. I do not know what has happened to her, nor do I know her address.

[JJ]

Laura Jane, I can only speak for myself but I didn't find your post objectionable in any way. You sounded frustrated and concerned which is understandable.

And intense is fine -not that you were particularly. We live lives that generate a lot of intensity.

I understand your frustration. I also live in an area where the nearest support group is too far to attend. I joined but have never been able to attend. I have met thousands of transpeople through this site and never spoken to one in real life. So on the rare occasion I see another trans person in the nearby city I have to almost lash myself to the nearest structure to keep from rushing over and babbling away. But I don't. I understand the reasons for the "do not out" protocol. It makes it hard.

If you meet a transwoman or someone you suspect may be in a social situation or a public place like a bar then I would suggest striking up a conversation and asking her to meet for coffee. It's okay to say that you are wanting to make new friends and would like to get to know someone. If she agrees eventually a friendship may result

The "don't out" really has little to do with protection and everything to do with confidence. Sometimes It can even be a matter of personal safety and It does make finding and sharing with others much more difficult. Sadly

But your reply was fine. Though it was sweet of you to apologize

Hugs

John

[Guest Ann Onymous]

Laura Jane, you show SE Texas as a location...which covers a phucton of territory, including several colleges. Yeah there is a lot of small town stuff in between, and you may have to drive for a weekend group, but you SHOULD have something within a reasonable drive even if it is a student association as a point of contact. Barring that, it may be worth looking into whether Collier still runs that group in Galveston (I quit associating with them sometime around '97).

[Guest CariadsCarrot]

I'm nervous of speaking here coz people have strong opinions and I have the feeling that what I say will probably upset some people and put me in the firing line and I'm really not comfortable with disagreeing with people. That scares me...but I really feel like I need to make a point.

Simply because one shares a similar medical condition does not mean that compatibility exists for the purpose of a social relationship. It certainly is not the way one begins a conversation in the bar setting...

For one moment I want to take this discussion out of the trans field. I have disabilities. I'm in a wheelchair and I cannot 'go stealth' on that...which yes, changes the issue a little bit...but I have had other people in wheelchairs come up to me in the street and start a conversation, yes just because we share a medical condition. I don't like this practice. I've never met someone I have wanted to stay in contact with these people coz we don't have anything in common despite the chair. They are usually lonely and desperate for friendship and support. They believe the best way to find this is to talk to someone who they think will understand them.

Also think about if you are hanging out somewhere that is common for someone with a similar hobby to you (yes being trans is not a hobby and I'm not trying to say it is...I'm just trying to think how this person and others like them could be thinking) and you see someone else who looks like they are doing the same thing. Wouldn't it be fairly normal to go up to them and say something about the hobby and start a conversation if you're a sociable kinda person?

And what about if you meet someone with the same job as you...or wearing the same top as you...with a car sticker that you identify with...with exactly the same kind of dog that you have at home...or pretty much anything else in common

People go up to someone cold and start conversations about all these things on a daily basis.

Sometimes it's a passing comment...sometimes it starts a conversation in which you find you have more things in common OR you find out you don't have anything else in common so you go your own ways. Sometimes the other person thinks you're rude or a weirdo because they didn't WANT a conversation...maybe the car sticker belongs to someone else who drives the car or they're just walking the dog for a friend or whatever...but how were you to know that?

Now coming back to the trans community. Yes it's disrespectful to out someone. Yes we probably have nothing in common other than a condition. I'm lucky. I found this site. I learnt the protocols here. I got support here. I learnt a lot.

lets say...just for the sake of argument! I had never spoken to another trans person, I had no idea where to get support. I'm in the early stages of exploring my identity and I'm not thinking about the distant future when I might want to blend in, I've spent my life not fitting in somehow, first coz I was trying to fit into a role I was not made for and then coz I started acting on my true feelings and got rejected for that, and I'm just desperately wanting to feel some kinda sense of community (the sense of community I have not had the benefit of knowing at Laura's coz I have never heard of Laura's in this scenario,) ...and I was so socially inept and had such low self confidence that advertising myself on the internet felt like the only way I could find someone to accept me (and by the way I have known natal women who have done this too...they were the kind of women with zero self value who felt like offering themselves for sex to anyone who would take them was the closest to love and acceptance they were every likely to get!)

...I might go to a place where I felt there was a likely chance I could find someone else like me in the desperate hope of making some kind of connection (and isn't that on some level why a lot of people go out clubbing really?)...and then I see someone and they look happy and confident and totally together and they are everything I long to be. Might I not think this is like that shared hobby or that other condition or that person wearing the same top or whatever that might (I am hoping) just lead to a moments feeling of something having been shared or just maybe could be shared in a conversation to share experiences and support networks and stuff?

I'm not saying what the person did is ok

I'm just saying I don't think we can judge how this other persons mind was working...and maybe they really don't realise this is different than saying 'hey I see your manchester united car sticker...good team man/nah they suck, I support liverpool!' or 'excuse me, are you looking for the coffee machine? They moved it down the hall' or 'hey you have the same top as me. How freaky!'

It seems obvious to us...but wasn't there some point in our lives when we would have grasped it with both hands without thinking about anything else if we'd seen someone who made us feel like it was ok to be who we are and that there is hope? Man, there sure was for me...that's the need that brought me here!

AND WORSE STILL we've left them clueless and ready to do the same thing again!!!!

Wouldn't the kindest thing to do in this situation be to fill this person in?...tell them 'hey I don't know if you know this but it's really not the done thing to go up to some random person and do what you've just done to me because..(tell them it's not the done thing...tell them that many people want to stealth as soon as they are able..tell them how it feels being read and outed like this)..if you want to mix with other trans people then they best way to do that is...(insert info of a local group or the address of Laura's or whatever you want them to know)...' Then politely excuse yourself.

Even if you spit in their face 'get lost and don't ever out another trans person by speaking to them in public like this' I'd prefer that if it were me than to be humoured with a conversation and left to make the same horrible mistake again. My worst nightmare would be to break some unspoken rule I didn't know about and not be told and then have people talk behind my back about how terrible I was for not knowing. Trust me, as a very insecure person I often fear that very thing!

OK so it's easier online than it is IRL where you have the concerns of being outed and all but every day you guys welcome clueless people into this site and teach them the 'rules of being trans' along with all the other support and resources and friendship I've found here.

Can't we give someone on the street the benefit of the doubt at least?...maybe slip them the web address of Laura's as we walk off in disgust?

If they do it again next time they see you then all the things said in this thread about them are true...until then maybe they really are as clueless as we think they can't possibly be.

Now please don't shout at me (but please don't hate me without telling me either...if you do have a problem with what I've said I'd rather know)

*retreats back into my burrow and pretends to not be here while waiting to be ostracised*

[Guest Lacey Lynne]

Krisina,

There is also that she may have been really trying to find someone to reach out to and you were that person. I know from personal experience that when looking for a kindred spirit that my radar was especially tuned. You may well be her saving grace.

<3

Amy

Agree with Amy quoted above all the way. Just my 2-cents' worth.

Peace Lacey

[Guest Krisina]

If I came of as hostile, angry, or intense, I am surely sorry, and I have sent a pm to Krisina appologizing as well.

Reading all the positions and counter-positions had me bewildered and dismayed. I am all better now.

Lizzy said,

Also,

"Some of you live in more isolated areas, and I suspect many do not have support groups. That complicates things."

This is true in my area and yes, it greatly complicate my transition. No matter how I word the search, I can not find any local groups, PFLAG or LGBT. There are, however, two local GLBT friendly establishments in town, and these are my best hope. Now that I know a little more, about interacting with other transwomen, I will be more discrete and possibly let them approach me and/or get to know the barkeep.

Thank you all, and forgive me if I have offended any of you.

Laura Jane

P.S. My therapist did introduce me to another local t-girl and I thought we were quickly becoming friends. I had opened my door to her, in the wee hours, as she needed support and comfort. But, when I called for support, several times, and texted her, several times, she has not answered any of my requests nor has she returned made any attempt at communications. It has been over four weeks. I do not know what has happened to her, nor do I know her address.

Hi Karen (:Laura Jane)

You didn't come across as hostile angry or intense. I didn't see any of that in your posting at all. It's all good Karen :-)

Yes all of the positions and counter positions going back in forth in the post is a bit bewildering.

I bet you will do fine in the GLBT freindly establishments :-)

It was great that your therapist introduced you to another local t-girl and it was great that you were supportive of her in the wee hours. I'm sorry to hear that you haven't heard back from her in 4 weeks and it is leaving you wondering what happened. I come across this too and I get stressed out thinking about it. Wanting to send out more messages or phone calls but I don't. I don't want to come off as desperate, clingy etc etc even though I want to call or send more messages. I just leave it and there isn't anything I can do to make them reply. I try and think of other things instead. The person might be stressed out or busy with other things in life or maybe thought it was no big deal and didn't think I was really wanting a reply, who knows. People lol.

Krisina

[JJ]

Gabe you aren't going to be ostracized or shouted at. By me anyway. I promise.

You have some valid points. But there are a couple of other things that lead me to the conclusions I made. A major one was that she didn't approach and ask for advise or start a general trans conversation from the way I read it anyway. She criticized the presentation of the person she approached-which makes a world of difference. Some one desperately seeking help and contact who has little enough contact with the trans community to be unaware of appropriate behavior is highly unlikely to approach another trans person with suggestions on how that person can present better. We are by and large so shy and so scared the first times out that I can't imagine a person new that way taking that approach.

The other thing that caused me to reach the conclusions that I did was that being trans isn't something we tend to be comfortable striking up a bar conversation about when we are first going out dressed. At least it seems to me that the people I have heard discussing it have pretty much all been scared half to death and very, very low vis as much as possible.

Not saying you are wrong-and I like the way you see the best in the situation but just giving my reasons. We didn't see the body language where the real communication was. Isn't the figure 80% of our communication is non verbal? It's one of the reasons police and safety people always say trust your instincts, Because we read all kinds of things about people we are not conscious of. People lie but it is far harder to disguise body communication. The fact that Krisina reacted the way she did to her may have had a lot to do with body language.

What the woman meant and what she was seeking is not really important here at this point I think -what is important to us appears to be how we react to one another in public.

I would never deny or reject a fellow trans person just because they were ignorant of the way things are supposed to be done and struck up a trans conversation. I would suggest a better environment and time perhaps, but kindly I hope. We all know and understand how it was in the beginning. I would not get angry or upset. I would if someone came over and started giving me trans pointers. That's a whole other situation. I think it unlikely that a trans person with an innocent purpose would strike up that kind of conversation in front of others in a bar. Even just starting out we know, sense that some people are stealth. Most of us read literature. Search the internet. Not getting to meet others is no longer and excuse for ignorance of proper behavior really, The information is all over out there.

I don't think most of us would be anything but kind and supportive should someone approach us out of ignorance however. Especially after becoming a part of this site. I just don;t see that as the case here. but it is all conjecture and speculation really. there are people who bring others who have what they can;t manage down out of pure spite. there are people who are socially inexperienced or uninformed about etiquette who will grasp at any trans person they see. They deserve vastly different responses.

Please, please don't feel that this has been an attack or an argument. I see it as a discussion . An explanation of views. My only objection in a situation like this is if people become rude or take an aggressive tone. You have as much right to your opinion and to state it as I do. I promise as long as it is done with respect

I won't ever like you less for it -In fact I sometimes learn a whole lot more when people disagree. for me a difference in opinion should never become personal as long as no one is getting hurt by what is being said.

You are an awesome guy with awesome opinions!

[Guest Krisina]

View Post Miss_Construe, on 08 May 2011 - 07:05 AM, said:

Krisina,

There is also that she may have been really trying to find someone to reach out to and you were that person. I know from personal experience that when looking for a kindred spirit that my radar was especially tuned. You may well be her saving grace.

<3

Amy

Lacey Lynne on May 9 2011 09:57 pm said:

Agree with Amy quoted above all the way. Just my 2-cents' worth.

Peace Lacey

I hear what you are saying Lacey and what Amy said too.

I am also thinking about what JJ (John) has posted having lived half his life in the public life as a woman to the rest of the world interacting with women before getting help with our shared medical condition of incongruent gender identity. He talked about her being aggressive ( I think that is what he said) and about things women talk about and do and don't do. It also had me thinking about what kind of conversations people normally talk about when you have just met them and don't know anything about them.

She said I should try a blonde wig, I should get a longer wig it would look good on me. I should come over to her place and try on a bunch of her wigs, asking me if I'm a sub or a dom, if I want to go to this bigger city nearby sometime and get a hotel room there and do some shopping there, we should go out shopping etc etc and gave me her number. I don't even know this person and she is talking to me about going to another city and sharing a hotel room and doing shopping. I don't recall conversations like that with others I have just met. I kind of feel like she wanted to dress me up with a blonde wig and other stuff, but I could be reading into it.

But yes, I will have to keep in mind that there will be people out there who are reaching out and trying to find a kindred spirit too.

Krisina

[Guest Krisina]

In response to Ann...

I am a bit candid and honest so before I post this here I want to make it clear that I am not out to hurt any feelings. I am a cis girl. I have no problem with trans people. My ex roommate is trans and my boyfriend is as well. My ex roommate (a FTM ) is friends with an MTF and she would come over quite frequently. I am a jeans and t shirt type of girl. At home I am most often in my jammies and that is just the way I am. She is very self conscious, which I understand. She was constantly driving me crazy because she would talk about how she was more feminine than I was because she dresses up and looks "pretty". Finally I just told her that she really makes herself stand out as trans by the way she dresses. She got really mad at me and started yelling. I told her that I didnt mean to hurt her feelings but I felt the need to be honest. It didnt make a difference but I felt I said something that she needed to hear.

Some people do try too hard to look feminine and it shows. I have been asked from someone in my transgender support group if I always put on makeup when I go out . I suppose I don't have to because of the laser work really, but I like the look lol. Maybe just lipstick and a little concealer would be better. I hope you being candid with your ex roomates MTF friend helped her if she was overdoing things, if it will help her out. I hear you about the jammies at home and wanting to be casual with jeans and a t shirt. I do the same thing (jammies) often after a long day at work. I just want to be comfortable and relaxed. It has me thinking of a couple of books I have read. One book is True Selves by Mildred L Brown/ Chloe Ann Rounsely and the other book is Transition by Mara Drummond. "If" you want to blend in with the other women around you, look around at what the other women are wearing in the grocery store, at the gas station, at the department stores etc. Are they all dressed up or are they casual jeans running shoes a hoodie etc.

It is okay as a woman not to be wearing skirts dresses etc all the time and it doesn't make a woman less feminine.

Having said that, I am sure there are a lot of women who are mtf that after having to live their lives with boring jeans pants shirt etc just want to get out and express themselves in all the wonderful clothing out there. I love fashion and I love looking at what other women are wearing from simple open foot tights, flats long shirt and top to skirts stockings tops. I look at what other women are wearing and I say to myself "I like that look" and "I want to get that outfit too!"

Krisina

[Guest CariadsCarrot]

Thank you John. As pathetic as it may seem at the age of 32 I'm quite new to discussions but your words don't come across as an attack at all...even to me while I'm plastered to the ceiling waiting to be cremated alive for my opinion! lol

(please know that's not a reflection on anyone here...just on many people I've known in the past)

You're right, the way people say things and the non verbal communication says far more than black and white words and that probably was a lot of what made Krisina feel the way she did about the exchange. It's probably part of why we've all got such different opinions too, and because of the experiences we all bring to the words we read.

I'm TOO good at looking for the good in people sometimes...and as doormats go I'm getting rather threadbare as a result lol I just find it so difficult to understand how someone can get anything out of bringing someone down. I would rather curl up and die than hurt anyone else so I find every other reason and explanation under the sun before believing that someone else could get a kick out of causing hurt. I'm too old and too experienced to be that naive. I should know what kind of jerks exist out there...I really should...and you may be right that this woman was one of them.

Gabe

[Guest Hayley]

I'm 6'1" and sometimes leave the house in 5 3/4" platforms.

Have a nice day

I love to go partying in my 5" stilleto heels! They're just a serious pain to dance in.

[Guest SummerDay]

This topic was a pretty cool read.

I've done creative and other work which is presentation focused and involves confidentiality agreements so the idea of how you present yourself and protocols is nothing new. It's just good business sense.

I've clocked a few trans in my time and usually just taken a closer look out of curiosity or said nothing. In a huge coincidence one I'd seen around rang my doorbell once but had got the wrong address. There's another who I always seem to end up standing behind in the queue at the local shop. Been getting some funny looks off her lately so don't know what the deal is there. Maybe I'm standing funny or need a shower? Dunno.

I checked out the trans/cd scene recently. One event is too far out of town and hard to get to so I skipped that. There's a bar downtown that has an event night but I feel skittish about anything that smacks of 'the scene'. I just don't go for loud music and all that play acting. The rest sound a bit rubbish and I'm not sitting in a bar on my own like a tool.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Is it universal?

In New Orleans the protocol is to NOT OUT other trans or CD people, even if you recognize that they are. It is simply not done.

Last Tuesday the three of us were in line at a 'trough restaurant' (all you can eat buffet). There were two T-Women directly in front of us - big girls, over 300 pounds and over 6' tall. They passed fine. It was obvious to us because we know what we T-Women are trying to minimize... and they had done a good job, except for the makeup, maybe. But their hair and presentation showed they were full time.

Interestingly, they were looking right past we three (not bragging, but we three are never noticed as anything but women, which is soooo gooood). Finally, one turned and I smiled at her. She suddenly 'got it.' I could see it in her face.

What are the odds - five T-Women in one place all together - and it was a standard situation, not a support group or anything!

We never did make real contact - I mean, do people usually talk to strangers in line in a restaurant, not usually.

That is how it works here.

Lizzy

[Guest SummerDay]

No idea if it's universally applied. I picked it up from the US entertainment industry. I know the US tend to get it a bit more than the UK. US media is also more sober and sports audiences better behaved. The "cleverness" can get a bit much at times and trying to persuade some people to lay off is like pulling hens teeth.

There was some research reported on last year about the difference between middle class and lower class attitudes. Middle class tend to lean towards structure and cooperation while those working their way up tend to be more aggressive and greedy.

I clocked another MtF in that just starting phase who left the local shop to go home and some alcoholic beggar started hurling abuse. I shouted across the road to tell them to lay off but it didn't have much effect. The MtF looked a bit upset and dived into their flat. Haven't seen them since. The politzei must have finally got around to rounding up the ape because I've only seen them around once afterwards.