SRS and Transition Regret in Real Time

[Carolyn Marie]

As with any surgery there can be complications, this bridge though not common i have heard of others having it, i had granulation which is quite common, everyone having srs should know all the risks and complication that could occur.

Paula

That is one of the big reasons why I am leaning against SRS now. Not the only reason, for sure, but it concerns me. Not something to be entered into lightly.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Mia J]

She hates dilating. Say's she has always hated

the way a vagina looks,thinks they are ugly,and

can't stand to have to look at hers to dilate,so

she avoids dilating and wants to just quit completely.

She knows that her vagina canal will seal itself,and

she doesn't care.

I can understand her pain issues and how that could make her regret GRS. But I just don't understand why she would have decided to have GRS if she always hated the way a vagina looks.

But regardless of what I don't understand I am just so sorry this poor person is suffering so. I hope she may find relief and happiness in her future.

Mia

[Guest Leah1026]

I don't believe that is what Leah is implying Kimberly.

She is saying it is no ones fault but her own that that

woman transitioned through SRS and finds life female

unsatisfactory.It is not her friends,her docs,her partners,

it all lies on her shoulders. If she had doubt,which she

undoubtedly had,she should have never persued this

path or let it go this far.It is her fault and only her fault.

Now she has to deal with the consequences of her actions.

Angelique

YES

[Guest KimberlyF]

Hypothetical:

A guy pushes a virgin into a volcano to appease his god as his culture does yearly.

Is he responsible for his actions?

Is his society responsible?

Is he a murder?

We as humans tend to deal in the black and white, the right or wrong. It's part of the reason life is so difficult for our community. People don't get what's behind the grey curtain.

These are things I know from the info I've been given. This person had surgery. This person is miserable. One way or another they weren't ready and were pushed forward IMHO.

Does anyone disagree with these statements:

You can be sane and do to circumstances beyond your control not make rational decisions.

If your decision was not made rationally you don't have the same level of responsibility.

It is a doctor's job to take care of their patient post-op.

[Drea]

Hypothetical:

A guy pushes a virgin into a volcano to appease his god as his culture does yearly.

Is he responsible for his actions?

Is his society responsible?

Is he a murder?

We as humans tend to deal in the black and white, the right or wrong. It's part of the reason life is so difficult for our community. People don't get what's behind the grey curtain.

Very interesting Kimberly. You not only highlight a grey area but it also illustrates how cultural expectations/pressures drive actions.

Consider this....

1) Many come into the trans community and support enviorments (like here) in an emotionally vulnerable state. They are just starting to understand themselves, self esteem is low and they been lacking validation.

2) Immediatly they get unconditional validation, love and support.

3) They are told that things can get better and they are get lots of information about being trans.

4) They also hear messages about how the general population is unaccepting or have their own negative feelings about that validated.

5) They receive messages in the form of examples about the positives of comming out, hormones, transition. Often expressed in exciting terms. Negatives that occur from such actions are either not mentioned or characterized as being part of the unacceptance of the the general population above.

6) If they start to toy with the idea of comming out they receive support and encouragement to do so. Sometimes resulting in outright isolation but even in a positive outcome it is an irreversible step that creates a boundary in its own way.

7) If they speak of something that doesn't fit the community beliefs they receive messages of conditional approval, see approval withdrawn or experience outright disapproval.

8) Conversely any steps they take that fits the community beliefs is validated, supported and encouraged.

The emotional vulnerability (1), the love bombing (2), the indoctrination of beliefs (3), the negative message about the outside the community (4), encouragment to take action that isolates themselves(6), disapproval when doctrine is not followed/questioned (7) and support when it is (8) are elements that are common in cults.

I do not feel there is any malicious intent and not saying the community is a cult. That doesn't change how the dynamics of the enviorment can affect the individual. Folks that have a low self esteem can be especially vulnerable and it doesn't surprise me one bit that there are some that fall victim to all the love, support, encouragement and validation that they lose site of their personal needs and take actions they might otherwise not have done.

If your decision was not made rationally you don't have the same level of responsibility.

So as Kim says, if such a person has fallen victim to the social dynamics that can be found in trans support, is that person totally and exclusivly responsible for their actions?

[Guest KimberlyF]

The emotional vulnerability (1), the love bombing (2), the indoctrination of beliefs (3), the negative message about the outside the community (4), encouragment to take action that isolates themselves(6), disapproval when doctrine is not followed/questioned (7) and support when it is (8) are elements that are common in cults.

I do not feel there is any malicious intent and not saying the community is a cult. That doesn't change how the dynamics of the enviorment can affect the individual. Folks that have a low self esteem can be especially vulnerable and it doesn't surprise me one bit that there are some that fall victim to all the love, support, encouragement and validation that they lose site of their personal needs and take actions they might otherwise not have done.

This is interesting in that since this thread started I have came to the same cult-like comparisons in my own head. I agree totally. It doesn't mean there is a bit of malice and on the contrary most want to help alleviate the pain that they themselves have felt and come from a place of real love and support.

Some I do feel need others to make the same choices as them in how they ID or in what hormones to take or whatever to feel that their way is the best and that they made a good choice. Nothing that doesn't happen every day in society.

I'm also sure that our posts will be met with the same resistance that this person's talk of detransitioning is by some. To which I would say, these are just words on a screen that Drea and I have typed. If you disagree that's fine. If you are secure enough in your choices, you don't need anyone else to validate them. Yet, there always has to be an understanding in these threads on people who talk of detransitioning. What went wrong??? The system is perfect. There has to be an issue with the person who is still in a whole lot of pain.

So as Kim says, if such a person has fallen victim to the social dynamics that can be found in trans support, is that person totally and exclusivly responsible for their actions?

Well, I think it's obvious on my opinion here. Actually it's not that obvious. As you laid it out in this sentence, I'd say no, they are not exclusively responsible. The problem is just like how society can at times be critical of a person with a congenital heart problem parking in a handicap spot because you can't *see* a problem, you can not tell just by looking at someone or even listening to them for a few minutes to find out how much in control of their own life they really are. A qualified therapist is supposed to catch that. Um, this person had SRS in Canada. Are they required to talk to therapists? Who signed off on the surgery? Yeah...I'm not holding this person personally responsible for the whole thing.

[Drea]

Some I do feel need others to make the same choices as them in how they ID or in what hormones to take or whatever to feel that their way is the best and that they made a good choice. Nothing that doesn't happen every day in society.

Do you mean that by encouraging others to do the same as them they find a certain sort of validation because others following them means they must have made good choices?

[Guest Donna Jean]

.

Does this mean that as a group and as a website we're doing it all wrong?

What can we do better? We're here to help....if we're making it worse.....how can we change this?

Donna Jean

[Guest Svenna]

Drea makes some excellent points...

I can see where a new poster could be swept away with all the emotional support found here, and the joy of releasing one's innermost secrets to folks that share similar secrets can be intoxicating. One may be tempted to rush to judgement...

But, over time, one would hope that as the 'rush' of unconditional acceptance begins to fade, that such a person would begin to feel that perhaps they aren't 'exactly' like the rest of the group they have mistakenly identified with? I know every time I become overwhelmed with the implications of coming out as trans, I fall back and reconsider all of the supporting evidence that led me to the conclusion that I am trans in the first place. I can recite a life long list of events to support my belief, and no amount of the generous emotional support found here can create those memories in me retroactively...

How can we REALLY know if a new poster is actually trans? How can we know if they are merely over-identifying with the 'sisterhood' and perhaps are now in a little bit over their heads? How?

Time, in my humble opinion, is the only way to know. Over time, we can sort the details of our existence. Over time, we can make a plan of action that is both reality-based and do-able...Over time, we will learn the truth about ourselves...

Being in a hurry about transitioning should be a red flag all on its own. There are many reasons why we WANT to be female right now, many reasons why we NEED to be female-bodies right now, but none of these reasons can be allowed to trump our need to be CERTAIN of what we are doing and why...

What can be done to improve the approach used here on this site? I don't know, the site works great for me, but I was already certain about my trans-ness long before my first post. I try to welcome the new posters with the "I think i am trans" introductions with a greeting that encourages further exploration of their feelings and a caution to go slow in deciding what their journey may entail. Surely, some folks come here thinking they are trans only to realize later that they are not? I must happen some of the time, right? These people are hurting, too, but the advice they need the most may be to step back and take a deep breath. Surely, the common advice to seek gender therapy is taken more often than not and these folks can figure out just what their issues really are. For these folks, transitioning or even 'coming out' could be a disaster just waiting to happen..

MY feeling is that is a person really IS trans, then no amount of waiting will evade the eventual crystalization of that truth. My hopes are that nobody need stay in an inappropriate gender role any longer than absolutely necessary. But every case has its own variables and details to weigh into the equation and it will take time to address these issues fully...

Bottom line is that we are all responsible for figuring out our selves, ourselves!

Tough questions, no easy answers...

Love and discernment to all, Svenna

That said, not everybody is me, and certainly, everybody can make mistakes. This is a BIG thing to get wrong, though, no?

[Sally]

OK, I am not too sure how we are best to serve people who are coming to us with low self esteem and in some cases looking for some reason to live at all.

Does telling someone who feels that there is no hope that they are right help anyone or does offering the hope, not a promise just the hope that things can get better seem like a better option?

I am not saying that we should just tell everyone that all is great, easy and just a bed of roses - read some of my topics - like "Some Straight Talk..." - we need to present both sides - not all sunshine and daises but not all gloom and doom either - some people have regrets and should never have transitioned, did we effect all of them - I do not think so many of them transitioned long before this website existed - others are living happier lives because they did transition - a lot of them before the Internet had been invented.

The world has a lot of different types of people and so is the trans community - some seem to live to be happy and others live to be miserable - amazing how they all seem to want everyone to join them - I believe that it is important to encourage everyone to think - that is the best way to determine if transitioning is for you or not.

As far as SRS that decision should never be influenced by anyone else - not just for regrets but it is indeed a very invasive surgery with a very long recovery time - one must decide for themselves if it is right for them.

Love ya,

Sally

[Carolyn Marie]

I do not feel there is any malicious intent and not saying the community is a cult. That doesn't change how the dynamics of the enviorment can affect the individual. Folks that have a low self esteem can be especially vulnerable and it doesn't surprise me one bit that there are some that fall victim to all the love, support, encouragement and validation that they lose site of their personal needs and take actions they might otherwise not have done.

So as Kim says, if such a person has fallen victim to the social dynamics that can be found in trans support, is that person totally and exclusivly responsible for their actions?

So this site, and the community at-large, is not in your view a cult, but is cult-like. Providing information, encouraging people to see a therapist, picking them up when they are emotionally down, celebrating successes, lifting spirits after failures, those are all part of "indoctrination" you say. Interesting take on it.

Negative messages about the outside community are not provided by us, they are provided by the "outside" community itself. Should we lie to folks, and tell them that they are sure to be received by one and all with open arms if they transition?

Encouraging folks to isolate themselves? I assume you mean by coming out. But that presumes that all or most coming out events result in isolation, which suggests a negative message about the outside community, which is one of your cult-like criteria. Having it both ways?

Cults also keep their members isolated by depriving them of information, putting them in physical or emotional distress (note that the cults do this, not the members themselves), their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, and they are given a new identity. So you seem to ascribe to this site and its members many characteristics that the members already arrive here with. They have created new identities, we don't create them. They often come here already in distress, we try to reduce it or eliminate it, and rather than offer a simple explanation for all problems (you are trans, and that is the root of all your problems), we encourage people to seek out a qualified therapist to help them find answers for themselves. We can hardly be accused of depriving anyone of information; on the contrary, information overload is a bigger problem.

I am bothered by your comments not because I think they are all wrong; rather, it is usage of emotionally and politically loaded terminology like "cult" that provides cannon fodder for those who are looking to discredit us. You could have easily made your points without dredging up that term.

The other thing that bothers me is that, while you are free with criticism, you are loath to suggest solutions to the many problems you've identified. Should we stop saying "congrats" when someone starts HRT after long months or years of trying? Should we do away with celebratory emoticons? Should we tell folks not to come out to parents or friends or co-workers until they are completely financially independent? Should we not talk about our own successes, but only about our failures and disappointments? Shall we tell folks who don't pass well, not to step outside until they have FFS?

What is it we should do to make this site what you think it should be? I'm all ears.

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Jenth]

A funny thing I'ce noted about the phrase "I'm all ears" it usually isn't true. Drea makes some strong points but I think some of them are perceptionally influenced, for example his number for point of encouraging isolation. I've been reading this forum for a good six months and while Drea's been around longer I must say I've never seen the advice "live like a hermit." In fact as a community I think we'd rather not be isolated.

And as far as the trans doctrine goes... There are many people who say think carefully about how you're transitioning and only do what you need. I often see a double message presented. One side says transition isn't easy and you should only do it if you really neeeeeed to, and the other side answers well yeah but you're here so you must need it. I think we really run into the doctrine thing after we've decided to take the red pill per se, and even after that you encounter people like Drea and Lacey who say it's ok and even fairly common to stop where you're comfortable. A notion that doesn't follow the "doctrine." And yet even with the idea that transition isn't easy and the idea of stopping where you need to I do feel that we as a community almost always assume that everyone is intensely dysphoric and so needs to "go all the way." I mean even in this thread we've made the sales pitch that surgery has an insanely low rate of regret. A fact I find irrelevant in the case of an obvious regretee. Angie (who initiated the thread) already made up her mind as to her opinion of GRS, so who's the sales pitch for?

When I first researched being trans while questioning myself and my future I discovered several sites including Lauras, and one of the things the internet as a whole seemed to agree upon was a timeline. I don't remember the name of it but many of you know it and will probably point someone to it at some point. It lists a person's personal experience transitioning and the dates they did everything. The way everyone referenced this source was a bit intimidating, but I've read the timeline and decided it won't happen like that since this is my personal journey through transition and that was theirs. A decision which I've been able to make because I was responsible for my actions as a self aware thinking person. That's what this is about isn't it? Being self aware? In the case of the cultural sacrifice if the boy who sacrificed the virgin thought with our set of morals and was self aware he could choose to go against the machine of his society. Sure that choice would isolate the boy, but he would have chosen of his own free will to be responsible for "saving" the virgin or he could choose of his own free will to be responsible for sacrificing the maiden. Note I have placed saving in quotations. You're example is missing some underlying information such as is the virgin struggling or has she chosen to sacrifice herself for the good of her community? In a society where virgin sacrifice is encouraged often both the sacrificer and sacrificee are aware of what and why the ritual is taking place.

In a similar way we can make your example a metaphor for transition. Using an mtf as my example but one can easily switch the gender's. Being born a male we are conditioned to be the boy sacrificing our virgin (our inner female selves.) For various reasons we question this conditioning of society just as the self aware boy would question the edict to sacrifice the maiden. And just as the boy we are responsible for our choices, before, during, and after transition. This lady who regrets her GRS was met first with the pressures of society to stay male, then she encountered the communities pressure to change to female, then as she transitioned she fought between the two pressures. At some point she chose to have the surgery. So yes, just as I would hold the boy responsible for sacrificing the virgin I think she was responsible for going through with the surgery. I'm not qualified to say whether either the boy or this lady made the wrong choice, I'm just saying they made a choice. She is now handling the consequences of her choice and attempting to choose how to best handle those consequences. A choice which will also have consequences, thus is life.

I feel sympathy for the regretee. And I shall heed the advice in her story by carefully planning and considering each step of my transition. The pure personalization of transition in my opinion makes any other response futile. Can the community do anything to prevent cases such as this? Probably no more than their trying to already. Any amount of red tape can be surmounted with delusions, and the idea that the trans community should stop celebrating transition will most likely only make for more miserable people. Life's full of stories, some are sad and tragic, while others are joyful. Both kinds need to be told and I've found both kinds are told. It is the responsibility of the listener to keep their view from becoming jaded one way or the other not the responsibility of the story teller.

Listen well and consider everything carefully, choose your life.

Heathy

[Guest Syrra]

Interesting conversation, and nice to see it travel beyond the scope of the one person's unfortunate current situation...

Of course it is cult-like. Any support group set up and composed of like-minded people will be that. A group of AD&D players is, by the definitions provided, cult-like.

I joined in a chat where I was told "until you get your [vulgar term for penis omitted] chopped off, you are not a woman. Come see me once you get it whacked off." This was here at LP...and I have chosen not to divulge the one who said it. The point is, that is the extreme end of the scale, but shows that people in "closed" communities can say things that can have a severe emotional and psychological impact on those who are particularly vulnerable. Whether or not they intend to be anything other than supportive, words can carry a lot to those who are confused.

That being said, I have seen nothing on the forums here, largely, other than words of support and urges to see a gender therapist. This is the best, IMHO, that we can do...provide ALL the information, both positive and negative, that we can...urge them to see a proper GT, not just a family therapist who may not be equipped to help them...and otherwise just provide some emotional and social support.

From that point, it rests with the individual, and the therapist. A decently trained therapist needs to be able to read the signs of whether or not someone is ready for further steps. When things change to be an "informed consent" system, the whole dynamic will change and people will actually need to choose their words far more carefully... Until then...? The first words out of my mouth to someone who confides in me that they think, or know, they are trans, is "are you seeing a GT yet? You should...that's the first step in finding out for yourself." I never push someone in any direction...except in ways to feel a bit more at ease with themselves. But we need to listen to their words. We are as all individual in our situation as any two people in the world... Being Transsexual and going through transition is not a "one size fits all" thing.

~Love, Syrra

[Guest KimberlyF]

Stupid stupid iPhone.  Working on a post all morning with two thumbs and it poofed.   So I'm gonna try again.

I have mentioned this attitude that is almost cult-like made me a bit uncomfortable in that it's a phrase that can be tossed around on the net like cup cakesm and Hitler.  I think maybe a better term would be group-speak?  Like I said, this is very normal behavior and happens everywhere.  

There is an inherent problem in any group where as they grow they seem to line up in strict ideologies and if you don't agree, you splinter.  This leads to conflicts everywhere.  

On paper religion and government are amazing things.  Then you throw people into the mix and the corruption begins.  And it doesn't mean people are evil or have malicious intent.

When my wife was pregnant, I hung out on pregnancy support boards.  Yes I was living vicariously-and???   Anyway, it started all supporty.  Everyone automatically breaks up according to their due month and exchanges pleasantries.  Shortly though, divisions rise up.  The breast feeders demand that people respect their understanding that breast milk is better and bottled milk is poison.  

It's not enough that I breastfeed.  You can't not breastfeed!  That's the kinda support we offer here.

The working moms are attacked for not caring enough about their kids and heaven help them if they're planning on mutilating their little boys with circumcision.    Pretty soon, there are little groups who all think the same or some of the issues just don't matter to them.

Group think has plusses and minuses.  Things get done quicker.  In the case of a support board like the preg board being surrounded by like minded people you now avoid the bickering and lectures if you have a question because your boy's penis is bleeding the day after being circumcised and you are FREAKING out.  It also has minuses.  You get a more limited input of views.  Maybe one of the women is so against circumcision because her own child had a serious reaction and would put aside all her lectures to really help you at this time?

When I started HRT in my informed consent program, the therapist I had to meet gave me a list of things other TSs who had been at that location for HRT back when they had needed a note from a therapist.  On it were such things as HRT allowing you to get pregnant, grow a vagina, change your voice, make you smaller, get rid of your beard.   

Why would a therapist OK this?

The story of Mike Penner is a very sad one, as is any suicide.  But many in the trans community still call this person she even though he detransitioned.  I have no idea what went on in his life.  But since I don't know I have to go by what I do know.  He came out as TS and started living full-time.   1 1/2 years later he was back to using his male name and living male at least professionally.    I have to go on the actions of the person since, sadly they aren't here to ask.  I wish him peace.

I do not base my transitioning on the success or failing of Mike Penner or the person in the OP or anyone on this board.  It would be like wondering if a tattoo is right for me because someone I know got one removed.

This was not directed towards me, but I don't think we need to tear this place down and start over from the ground up.

But instead of treating people who detransition as lepers, how about we ask why?  Is there a commonality to these people?  Why get angry with them and blame them?  Do people honestly think they are NOT trying to end their own pain?  

Education and true differences of opinion make better societies and help eliminate group speak.

It's not enough that I transition.  You shall not detransition.  That is the kind of support we offer.

[Drea]

There is so much, where should I start. FIrst, Kimberly makes some very good parallels and examples of how support can become narrow minded in itself. Being able to consider ides outside the central beliefs shows a degree of personal secuirity in onself. Why should ideas and actions of others be threatening?

I am bothered by your comments not because I think they are all wrong; rather, it is usage of emotionally and politically loaded terminology like "cult" that provides cannon fodder for those who are looking to discredit us. You could have easily made your points without dredging up that term.

What other term could I have applied? The items I listed were meaningless, and individually many of them are positive things or or originate with positive intentions. It is only in totality that supportive intent can have unintended consequences. It would have taken walls of text well beyond the patience of any individual to explain the social dynamics to explain it when the dynamic could be easily explained by drawing the parallel that I did. Futhermore, relevent to the topic, a number of people who have had regrets used the term to discribe the community and explain their error. It didn't start here in this topic by any means. Kimberly's term "group speak" while very apt doesn't really capture the influence element which was the gist of my post.

The other thing that bothers me is that, while you are free with criticism, you are loath to suggest solutions to the many problems you've identified.

I always have ideas for solutions and free to exress them. How many really want to hear those ideas? I will be happy to ennumerate what I believe are items that to counter this effect. I don't have time now so I will add in a post later.

Let me start with what I feel is the most significant change that would help counter the effect. As a community we have no problem warning people of the need to be monitored when on hormones, make sure it is being done right, etc. Likewise as a community we have no problem suggesting people see a therapist when it comes to transition. But when it comes to comming out, how often are those contemplating it reminded that it is not a reversible step? How often are they reminded that comming out doesn't have to be a first step? How often are they reminded that they should understand what they are hoping to achieve in coming out, how likely it is to achieve, what the risks are, and that it might be good to see a therapist first as that can help with a more positive outcome. And if someone is very new to the support enviorment how often are they reminded not to get caught up in the excitement and that comming out is very serious, can be risky.

Next I feel it would be good to, avoid the "we are your family now" if someone does experience losses during comming out or the "you need us" stuff when people seek to leave. We aren't anyone's family and if the community is becomming that we might as well adding "supplanting the family" to the list of parallels. Likewise if someone feels it is best for them to isolate themselves from the community, that they don't feel they are trans anymore, whatever the reason, that should be respected. They don't need to told that it will just come back, that if they don't deal with it now it will just get worse. If it comes back, if it gets worse they will be back. It is at such times that conditional acceptance rears it's ugly head. The "well I hope it is right for you" kind of stuff. Can't we feel happy for the person's choice if they find something different for themselves? Does that lessen us?

Be aware of what is doctrine, the standardized beliefs and really consider information that is different and not go shooting the messenger for raising that might be uncomfortable to consider.

This last one is a tough one because it is so ingrained. It is an almost universal belief by those first becomming active in the online community that the world out there, that society is unaccepting. This goes largely unquestioned, despite the thousands, tens of thousands out there living openly trans and finding most of the people in the world are quite accepting. That is is a small minority that aren't accepting, but that small minority doesn't define "society". While this is a very universal belief at the start it is also very universal for people who actually go through transition to start learning different. Unfortunatly by the time they come to realize how wrong this initial belief was they end up leaving the community.

Cults also keep their members isolated by depriving them of information, putting them in physical or emotional distress (note that the cults do this, not the members themselves), their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, and they are given a new identity. So you seem to ascribe to this site and its members many characteristics that the members already arrive here with. They have created new identities, we don't create them. They often come here already in distress, we try to reduce it or eliminate it, and rather than offer a simple explanation for all problems (you are trans, and that is the root of all your problems), we encourage people to seek out a qualified therapist to help them find answers for themselves. We can hardly be accused of depriving anyone of information; on the contrary, information overload is a bigger problem.

First of I didn't say it one. I highlighted some elements that are in common. Second I didn't not single out here. My observations (and the discussions of this type) go back well over a decade and things have remained largely unchanged. I will have to say however the new identity within the group and the reducing to a single solution are possibly additional parallels I hadn't considered.

joined in a chat where I was told "until you get your [vulgar term for penis omitted] chopped off, you are not a woman. Come see me once you get it whacked off." This was here at LP...and I have chosen not to divulge the one who said it. The point is, that is the extreme end of the scale, but shows that people in "closed" communities can say things that can have a severe emotional and psychological impact on those who are particularly vulnerable. Whether or not they intend to be anything other than supportive, words can carry a lot to those who are confused.

Ashley40 certainly has a way of drawing out people's insecurities. Not suprising given her training in the field. If one can put that emotional reaction aside she can be a wealth of information.

[Carolyn Marie]

But when it comes to comming out, how often are those contemplating it reminded that it is not a reversible step? How often are they reminded that comming out doesn't have to be a first step? How often are they reminded that they should understand what they are hoping to achieve in coming out, how likely it is to achieve, what the risks are, and that it might be good to see a therapist first as that can help with a more positive outcome. And if someone is very new to the support enviorment how often are they reminded not to get caught up in the excitement and that comming out is very serious, can be risky.

Next I feel it would be good to, avoid the "we are your family now" if someone does experience losses during comming out or the "you need us" stuff when people seek to leave. We aren't anyone's family and if the community is becomming that we might as well adding "supplanting the family" to the list of parallels. Likewise if someone feels it is best for them to isolate themselves from the community, that they don't feel they are trans anymore, whatever the reason, that should be respected. They don't need to told that it will just come back, that if they don't deal with it now it will just get worse. If it comes back, if it gets worse they will be back. It is at such times that conditional acceptance rears it's ugly head. The "well I hope it is right for you" kind of stuff. Can't we feel happy for the person's choice if they find something different for themselves? Does that lessen us?

It is an almost universal belief by those first becomming active in the online community that the world out there, that society is unaccepting. This goes largely unquestioned, despite the thousands, tens of thousands out there living openly trans and finding most of the people in the world are quite accepting. That is is a small minority that aren't accepting, but that small minority doesn't define "society".

Those are reasonable observations and suggestions, Drea. There is much validity in what you say. That is what I was hoping you would provide all along. I especially agree with your last point. I think that the stories of those of us who have had successes in transition, whether it be on the job, or in academics, or within our families, are a critical counterpoint to the flow of terrible stories we often see posted here. Some people have had terrible losses, for sure. But those accounts can overwhelm the positive ones, to the point where some, myself included, felt guilty for posting how well things were going in our own lives. I do often provide that message from my own experience, that most people are accepting, or at least not outwardly non-accepting.

You've made suggestions that I can incorporate into my own discussions and advice to members. That is a positive step, and I appreciate it. There is always room for improvement; its a lot easier to improve when one has positive and specific suggestions, than when one finds only negativity.

HUGS

Carolyn Marie