Gender Bullies

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Dear Androgynes, Allies and All Fine Folks in Internet Land ...

Do you ever feel like there are "gender bullies" out there who target anyone who is not "with them?" I felt this type of thing ( mostly back in in High School .) I flet the pressure to confirm to gedner "norms" most severely from those who were cis ... but occassionally, I have felt the pressure to "conform" from people who are gender variant or trans who seemed to want me to be more like them ... or simply chastised me because I am not more like them... or something like this.

Also ... in general, as an anrogyne, I sometimes feel a subtle "pat on the head" from a few (most often) binary-minded trans individuals who have said things like "Oh, I used to think I was androgyne but then, I realized that I was just afraid and was not ready to face that ... blah-blah-blah" Yeah .. that one never feels so great... it feels a lot like the old ( I will use a homophobic example here) "Well, liltte lady ... you just think you are lesbian because you just haven't found the right man" ( And magically, the guys who say this always seem to think that THEY are the right man! Funny .. they are always single .. you notice that?? )

Anyway ... The first time I remember feeling bullied for not being "Gender Variant" or "Trans" or "Butch" enough was when I was helping someone hang up a framed photo. I was in my late teens ... I had grown up without anyone to show me how to hold a hammer .. (when I was a kid, we just let everything fall apart and then moved when this became dangerous) ... Anywway ... back to the story of me trying to hang a picture on a wall ... as I went to hold the hammer and the very "butch" lesbian that I was assisting started laughing hysterically and mocked me in front of her girlfriend ... she actually began showing her how I had been "choking" the hammer. I felt pretty embarassed and humilated ... it felt simlilar to when people would mock me in High School for being too "masculine." Lovely.

Has this type of thing happened to any of you?? What did you do?? And by the way ... How do you hold a hammer ??

Hugs to All,

JB ( who should get a gold star for all of the people like this that I chose to NOT punch in the face.)

[Guest KarenLyn]

There will always be people, cis and trans, who have the "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude. I'm sure most of them don't even realize they're doing it. I'm probably guilty of it myself though I hope not.

I think we try to make things fit within the scope of our experience. When something doesn't fit, we try to adjust it so we can be more comfortable.

I suggest when someone tries to tell you the "right" way to be, give them a pat on the head and tell them you're on your own path.

As for the hammer, if it's working for you, it must be ok.

Karen

[Guest Maria_B]

Uhmmm, I hold a hammer by holding it. O____O. I wasn't sure there were proper techniques to the fine art of Hammer Holding.

[VickySGV]

Choking a hammer simply means holding the handle too close to the head as you drive a nail, hit a brick, or whatever. There is a bit more power in the dead blow of the head by holding it nearer the end of the hammer handle away from the head. Some folks though do not have the large muscle control to make that a safe practice, namely the head of the hammer does not contact the nail, or they let go of the hammer and you can guess the amount of damage that can cause. It is a LEARNED SKILL not a gender specific trait. I know "manly men*" who can't hit a tack with a sledge hammer and who do not have the sense to ask for help in the skill of using a hammer. The damage is indescribable without cursing!! I also know of the most sweet and petite women who can frame a house with power and accuracy because they have been TAUGHT to do it.

My gender issues as a child were hidden behind a disfiguring skin condition that was a sever source of bullying. Coupled with the fact that I did not (probably gender issue related) have good control over the large muscles needed for male style sports and I was indeed bully bait. A home run I hit in sixth grade softball was disqualified by the fact that I let go of the bat, which headed right at the guy trying to catch the ball, and actually hit him and make him drop the ball! I was too surprised that I had connected with the darn ball to even move which made it worse.

[Cyndee]

Hi JB, this point of view comes from a MTF vantage

I think we all experience gender policing, the binary is quite powerful. For me the MTF I like to call it "Male Guard Rail", you know all the things to keep you shamed into staying on the male side of the road. The gender policing all too common in the male world, they have to maintain the patriarchy by shaming you for displaying any femininity. Femininity is really threatning to some men in extreme cases.

You would hear things like "Real men don't XXXXX", or "Don't walk like a girl" or "only women do dishes", yadda yadda yadda.

Now I am pleased to say at this juncture in life, I live for me, not others, this is freedom of expession and if they don't get it, tough. I would simply say to others that question "my appearence is not your problem to solve".

Many gold stars to you JB for not using that hammer to hit them over the head with.....

Cindy -

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Awwww .. I feel so very loved abd supported by all of you beautiful women! Yopu have made my day .. each of you made me laugh with your sweet and amusing responses and I am still smiling. Thank you for understanding so completely and fo ryoiur willingness to be open and vulnerable .. your willingness and courage to be YOU!!

I getting choked up now ... a few happy tears .. nice.

Love to All,

JB

[Guest Alder]

I can't personally recall many instances of being bullied, if I was it was behind my back... or I've just blocked it out; giving I've always been overweight and a few other bully bait things you'd think I'd be able to recall any instances... I do however constantly hear snide remarks about others, even from friends and it utterly breaks my heart(and makes me wonder what is said about me when I"m not within earshot.)

Also, about the hammer, really if you're hanging a picture then choking the hammer is just fine as you don't need a lot of power to get the nails up..

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Hugs to you Alder!

[Guest Micha]

Think I've broken so many of the gender "rules" that people just gave up.

It's always seemed like a subconscious thing, but I have a sneaking suspicion that every time I was mocked or criticized on the basis of sexuality, they were really bashing my gender expression when it dared to show itself. Can't think of anything specific at the moment, but my head is all a jumble.

[Guest Alder]

I was just sitting here spaced out and thinking on the nature of bullying and had to share a bit of a challenge I have with the notion being taught. My child is 5, she's an adorable lil monster who's not been subjected to gender binaries by either her father or myself in fact we encourage her to dress and play with whichever 'genders' toys she likes best and she usually defaults to pretty dresses with flame print converse and swords/dragons/werewolves(which is the most adorable thing I have ever seen) the trouble I have, if with her extended family mostly from her paternal side. My family usually buys her books and art things which any child would love.

...Okay, getting side tracked. The trouble is, her paternal grandmother and aunts, try to shove 'girly' things at her. On more than a few occasions I've over heard her Grammy say "if you wear that, other kids will laugh at you" since she was three or so an able to start having favourite outfits to wear. She's also encouraged my child viciously, to kill ants which where wandering to close to the house in a manner which reminded me of how a brute would train a poor fighting dog "Kill it! Stomp on them!" with a nasty sneer in her voice. Sadly, I know the woman enough to know that even speaking to her of /not/ doing it she'd fain ignorance or laugh it off and continue anyway.

I'm digressing again(I can go on for hours about my disdain for the paternal side of my daughters family.) It all comes down to the "other people will laugh at you" lines, trying to brainwash my child into thinking it's not okay to be yourself due to other people laughing at you.... Now whenever I tell my child that something she is wearing isn't the best choice(I do try to keep her from looking like she rolled in the goodwill bin and dressed for the weather) she always asks "Because people will laugh at me?" so I know it's already working it's magic and I just want to punch her grandmother for being a thingy and then have to spend a good deal of time explaining nearly ever week in nice terms that her grammy is a bully.

[Guest -Tori-]

Juniper, I think it sounds like we have had very similar experiences, particularly on the subject of school!

I wont deny the fact that I am young and still very inexperienced in the world, but I will say certainly that I have encountered 'Gender Bullies' very much so in the school enviroment. I think that the concept of being androgynous is very foreign to a lot of people. I have felt at times the building pressure of societys expectations to be 'one or the other'.

One thing that particularly irritates me is that because I do not fit the feminine appearance of a women, people tend to assume that either I am gay or desire to be a man. For a long time now my mother has been saying 'You know, I wouldnt mind if you were gay'- its becoming a regular occurance. Just days ago I met someone for the first time, and one of the first things he said to me was- 'I see you're having a sex change.' I was almost lost for words!!! How do you respond to a situation like that?! He was confused because of my short hair and flat chested appearance so it seems!

I dislike how some see androgyne as a problem. Friends have in the past given me 'advice' on how to look more girly. A teacher said to me a month ago 'You'd look nicer with longer hair'- in response I cut it

[Guest Micha]

I was just sitting here spaced out and thinking on the nature of bullying and had to share a bit of a challenge I have with the notion being taught. My child is 5, she's an adorable lil monster who's not been subjected to gender binaries by either her father or myself in fact we encourage her to dress and play with whichever 'genders' toys she likes best and she usually defaults to pretty dresses with flame print converse and swords/dragons/werewolves(which is the most adorable thing I have ever seen) the trouble I have, if with her extended family mostly from her paternal side. My family usually buys her books and art things which any child would love.

...Okay, getting side tracked. The trouble is, her paternal grandmother and aunts, try to shove 'girly' things at her. On more than a few occasions I've over heard her Grammy say "if you wear that, other kids will laugh at you" since she was three or so an able to start having favourite outfits to wear. She's also encouraged my child viciously, to kill ants which where wandering to close to the house in a manner which reminded me of how a brute would train a poor fighting dog "Kill it! Stomp on them!" with a nasty sneer in her voice. Sadly, I know the woman enough to know that even speaking to her of /not/ doing it she'd fain ignorance or laugh it off and continue anyway.

I'm digressing again(I can go on for hours about my disdain for the paternal side of my daughters family.) It all comes down to the "other people will laugh at you" lines, trying to brainwash my child into thinking it's not okay to be yourself due to other people laughing at you.... Now whenever I tell my child that something she is wearing isn't the best choice(I do try to keep her from looking like she rolled in the goodwill bin and dressed for the weather) she always asks "Because people will laugh at me?" so I know it's already working it's magic and I just want to punch her grandmother for being a thingy and then have to spend a good deal of time explaining nearly ever week in nice terms that her grammy is a bully.

God I know that frustration. Children are not only impressionable but also observant and they don't miss a thing. I am so tired of telling my children that people don't "wake up" after they die, that dead is dead and no one knows anything beyond that, all to undo my mother-in-lay trying to make little Witnesses out of my children. Toys and clothes are the same too. I never realized how polarized my family truly was until they started buying crap for my kids (and whoever finally fesses up to the make up kit is gonna be screened next x-mas). I'm also dealing with this unbalance issue with my own lover, since she doesn't share my views on this with our kids. It's tough.

Family (and in my case it's not just the in-laws) are terrible in this case. Everyone is a freaking expert on how my children should be raised and not too many have the decency to consider how I, the parent, feel about what they're doing to my kids. Thoughtlessness and insensitivity are not traits I want to encourage in my children.

[Guest Luna Selene]

This is probably a weird example, I don't know if any of you have gotten this but here goes...

When I argue for women's issues.

I have made points in defense of equality, and where I feel I would be embraced by feminine approval I am met with almost wolf-like pack mentality. "You can say all you want but at the end of the day you still benefit from a man's world."

"You don't know what it's like to give birth."

"You just don't understand."

...

That last one always gets me. True, many women take my views well, it's mainly the "men-haters" that gave me trouble...but DAMN. I didn't know what I do now, about myself, but even then I couldn't help but feel insulted and hurt. I would often gets sneers of disapproval from my male friends for it, (Many many MANY people thought I was gay in High school) generally making lewd, crude sexist comments that somehow affected me LESS. So I was often confused where I was supposed to stand.

I don't know, maybe i'm thinking about it too much.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Dear Luna Selene, ( love your name by the way!!)

In my pexperience, the "man" haters tend to ultimately be people haters. There is no reasoning with people like this. I'm sorry that you have been treated this way ... I have been attacked in similar ways by women who claim to be Feminists but seemed to be missing the point entirely. I am thankful to those people who truly understand that the path to equality can never be paved with the stones of hate.

Hugs,

JB

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Each person has the right to express who they really are. Not understanding exists in all communities (even ours).

In time, false. attempts to define you will disappear.

Gender bullies abound because it is safer for them.

Continue to be yourself.

Love.

Brenda

[Guest endlessummer]

I get mostly bullied from stupid under-20-year-olds... Especially when they're in groups it seems to be a hell of a blast for them to yell gender discriminating words at me, or even trying to mock-attack me. They're not sure what to make of me /my gender, so I just try to ignore them. Older people who bully me I just think of as narrowminded.

I have never ever in my life understood why it could be fun in any way to bully another person or to interfere with another person's way of living.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

"Bullying" is complicated and very strange in the human experience. When I was in the first grade there was a six year old who looked like he was 16, a growth rate abnormally that eventually killed him before he reached age 20, I heard later. He seemed the perfect bully and he actually hung out with the 12 year old kids in the 6th grade although they were twice his age.

He did push himself when around the 'young guys' because he could intimidate us. (I was actually terrified of him). He had the reputation of being a peeping Tom, and it was probably partially based on truth. He was a 6 year old with the sexual curiosity of a teenager. We were instructed to stay away from him - by our peers - and by our parents (who did not even know him) It was scary when 'Howard' was around on the playground. For whatever reason, he was never placed in any special education classes early on.

Although he was a "bully," he was one in size and bluster more that in promoting physical abuse. Thinking back I cannot recall him hitting anyone. He WOULD chase you away and threaten you with harm if you made any comments about him. and yes, we bullied him unmercifully - groups of 6 year old children, then 7 year old kids, then 8 year olds as the years went by. He disappeared after that and I heard he was in a special school, finally - probably because of OUR bullying).

But the story has a secret chapter - I did talk with him once. SHHHH never tell my parents that, well actually you can't anymore.... but you see I was different too. You can guess why - I wasn't a 6 year old boy, I mean I looked like one, but I wasn't a guy at all. I think Howard sensed I was different.

I won't pretend that we became friends, we didn't. We only one chance to talk. It was n secret and in that hidden place behind the brick school incinerator where the monitor duty teachers couldn't see without walking over a long way. It was the place I went to play jacks with the girls, and a this one time Howard was there crying.

I thought I was dead! Coming around the corner and catching him like that. If our eyes hadn't met I would have run away. If I hadn't looked concerned, he might have felt it necessary to pound me. Neither one of those two things happened. Instead I said, something like, 'You okay?"

Howard made up a story. I left without further comment. But we had connected. I knew inside my heart everyone was wrong. He was 6 years old like me - and he was different like me, but in a hugely obvious, terrible way, he was different.

He never bullied me after that. I never taunted him ever again. He never did smile for me when we would meet by chance, and I never saw him cry again. I would like to say we became good friends, we couldn't. I would like to say he and I talked things through, we didn't. It would be nice to relate some sort of climactic end to this story, maybe he rescued me from a gang of bullies, or that I stood up and defended him in front of my friends when they started talking about "Howard." But there is no pat ending to all this.

The point?

I learned not everyone is what you think they are. I learned people construct walls and put on bravado to protect what they feel is their vulnerability. And I learned that you can sometimes just connect for a brief second - and that changes things for of both of you.

Well, it changed me.

I can't say if it changed Howard, I don't know. When I learned he died - by then I understood the disease he had - I cried.

Lizzy

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Lizzy .. what a beautiful and heartfelt post. I felt like I could see Howard ... you are a great writer and the story and moral is so true.

Brenda ... thank you for your support and very kind words.

Endlesssummer ... I am so sorry to hear that you have been treated like this ... it is baffling isn't it ... these people must feel very powerless to need to do things like this to feel powerful.

Love to All,

Juniper

[Guest agfrommd]

I like to call it "Male Guard Rail", you know all the things to keep you shamed into staying on the male side of the road.

What a great image! Because I was socially awkward, seems like I was always slamming up against this guard rail without being able to see it until someone cruelly pointed it out for me. Maybe from being an androgyne, too. Made it hard for me instinctively to see the differences between the binary genders.

[Guest Melancholy]

It's so annoying. Women wearing men's clothes is normally considered fine, but the other way round, and people try to shame you. Stereotypical butch lesbians are fine, but effeminate males? No way.

It's so annoying. We give ourselves categories as ideals, and then, over time, make it into an expectation. Idea - Expectation - Stereotype - monotone. We live in a society that encourages us to express oursleves- as long as they fit the expected self expression limit. You can style your hair if you're a guy, yeah, as long as it's short. For example.

In the end..I think we need order in our lives.

To sort things into black and white areas. Male. Female. Straight. Gay. Because grey areas are ahrd to sort. You have to think about it. You have to be challenged on it and justify yourself. Stand your ground. We sort our world into labels because it's so much easier. In the end, we just limit ourselves. So much more we could be, but we limit ourselves with stupid labels and stereotypes. Our body bags, locked from the inside. Our own perfectly ordered monotony. And then, somewhere in there, those grey areas people try to stamp out so they can understand - those grey areas they tried to get rid of, but are secretly everywhere - there's us. Our own little slice of chaos.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Hey .. great to hear your "voice" agfrommd !

Mealncholy .. your post is so very true and is artfully written.

"Our body bags, locked from the inside. Our own perfectly ordered monotony. And then, somewhere in there, those grey areas people try to stamp out so they can understand - those grey areas they tried to get rid of, but are secretly everywhere - there's us. Our own little slice of chaos."

Love ot All,

JB

[Guest Micha]

It's so annoying. Women wearing men's clothes is normally considered fine, but the other way round, and people try to shame you. Stereotypical butch lesbians are fine, but effeminate males? No way.

It's so annoying. We give ourselves categories as ideals, and then, over time, make it into an expectation. Idea - Expectation - Stereotype - monotone. We live in a society that encourages us to express oursleves- as long as they fit the expected self expression limit. You can style your hair if you're a guy, yeah, as long as it's short. For example.

In the end..I think we need order in our lives.

To sort things into black and white areas. Male. Female. Straight. Gay. Because grey areas are ahrd to sort. You have to think about it. You have to be challenged on it and justify yourself. Stand your ground. We sort our world into labels because it's so much easier. In the end, we just limit ourselves. So much more we could be, but we limit ourselves with stupid labels and stereotypes. Our body bags, locked from the inside. Our own perfectly ordered monotony. And then, somewhere in there, those grey areas people try to stamp out so they can understand - those grey areas they tried to get rid of, but are secretly everywhere - there's us. Our own little slice of chaos.

There is a difference between the binary system, or any social standard of normal, and order. The binary system of gender exists much like the dividing lines between men and women, between the cup cake's supreme race and the Jews, between American Whites and the decedents of Black slaves, between Christians and Pagans/Atheists/any other non Christian, or even between the rich and the poor. These dividing lines exist to keep the majority of people who would otherwise be united, separated into numerous subgroups. Keeps the mass majority divided into little minorities, while the true minority rules the masses.

Order cannot be kept by force - that's a totalitarian rule, and will ultimately fail. Order must be kept voluntarily, by the masses themselves. That cannot happen until the masses stop dividing and subjugating themselves. To point the finger at another is to serve the foot upon your own back. To recognize those that are different from you as one and the same as you is to embrace a cooperative and equal community - freedom by voluntary order.

Sorry for the ramble, just got struck by something. .. an idea or inspiration, whatever.

It's true that a woman in "men's clothes" won't be subjected to the same animosity and shame as a man in "women's clothes," and that fact is very wrong. One could argue that women have been subjected to far worse, and that women wearing man's clothing is a step toward equality. I would argue that as long as clothes, as well as roles, standards, obligations and expectations are separated by gender, there will never be equality between genders. Discrimination will always exist as long as lines are drawn to divide. Once we stop seeing things separated as women wearing mens' clothing, or men wearing womens' clothing, then we can recognize that all persons are equal and undivided.

It's not chaos, it's equality, and it's freedom. There is a difference.

[Guest agfrommd]

It's so annoying. Women wearing men's clothes is normally considered fine, but the other way round, and people try to shame you. Stereotypical butch lesbians are fine, but effeminate males? No way.

Here's my theory about this:

We put a lot of pressure on our males. We're supposed to be the defenders, ready to put our bodies on the lines for the weak and defenseless. (Of course nowadays, men are more likely to be perpetrating the violence against women, and plenty of women serve ably as police and in the armed forces, but that's the ideal. People with rigid gender roles tend to have an idealistic view of reality).

Men who are not the ideal of macho are not "pulling our weight" and therefore putting the country in danger. (Our country isn't in danger. We've never been safer. But, again, those folks don't let reality intrude).

Therefore, we're objects of derision, while non-traditional females, who aren't similarly endangering the village, do not need to be kept in line.

Either that or it's ignorant bigotry. Not sure which.

[Guest Luna Selene]

Wow, so many wonderful points I'd like to respond to!

Firstly, JB: Can I quote you on this? it's beautiful. " the path to equality can never be paved with the stones of hate."

And thank you for the name love, but I'm thinking about changing it. I feel sort of silly with it translating into Moon Moon.

Secondly, Miss Eli K (If you don't mind the name(It just flows really well(Mrs?))): That was a wonderful story with a really good moral ending. It doesn't matter that it fit the "standards." I really think that you pulled the prime storytelling lesson from it, and you did it without exaggerating the facts. Not everyone can do that, so I'd have to agree; You're a wonderful writer! Keep it up!

Thirdly, Cynthia: I LOOOOVE the imagery on that one! " For me the MTF I like to call it "Male Guard Rail", you know all the things to keep you shamed into staying on the male side of the road."

If I may add to it, I think Trans people hit the wall, flip through the air and land on the other side. (some more gracefully than others) Androgyns like us are the ones in the semi truck, smashing through. CIS people just get frustrated with the increased traffic. The government doesn't know how to tax the drivers who cross the lines so they just keep rebuilding the divider....

Ookay, I need to stop metaphoring.

Fourthly, Melancholy: Have you seen the video that was posted here, and the ando TV thread? As best as I can remember it was called "Labels are for jam jars" but I think the original link was deleted. If you can, it's an excellent watch I think you'd appreciate.

Fourthly and a half?: Does anyone know where that video went, or what it's called or anything else about it? Please let me know, it would be a great reference to keep archived.

Fifthly, My Micha: Way to hit the nail on the freakin' head! You really couldn't be any more right. When it boils down to the basics, all of our problems could be solved if we stopped pointing the fingers of fear and hate, (As well as stop listening to those pointing) and truly understand each other as humans. I first learned this from my American History Professor a couple years back. He was explaining the turmoil of the Immigrants in New York. Everyone was grouping together, and the white man would come to each one of them and say "Hey, i'm glad you're on our side, because you see those guys over there? They are trying to take your jobs." This allowed the immigrants to fight among themselves, completely ignoring the "Man" and the deviousness that would come. Divide and Conquer.

This doesn't seem like it has anything to do with Gender, but ultimately it's the basis of all of our "Us vs. Them" mentality. It's only when we as a collective stop fighting ourselves, can we truly gain peace.

Lastly, I wanted to throw my own interpretation to the "Butch=Good, Fem=Bad" discussion. I can't remember where I read it, (either here, (Most likely) or online) but I will try to find it; this was described very simply.

It's residue of the idea of woman being the lesser sex.

Joe Schmoe upon seeing a FTM: "Well why the hell wouldn't she want to be a man?"

Joe Schmoe upon seeing a MTF: "Why the hell would you want to be one of them?"

I really wish this wasn't the case, but it seems to make the most sense.

Well that is all for now, I must rid the negative and breathe in life. Thank you all again for being so wonderful and allowing such a great place, safe! Ahh, can you tell I've had some coffee?

_L ^.^

*Author's note: I did the change in subject between Joe's responses purposefully.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Excellent points Micha.

There is a lot to think about here.

Yes .. I am not sure if I would be targeted less for violence if I had been born a cis female ... it is certainly not safe to be a girl or a woman in this world ... but there are also situaions where my being gender variant, "a woman in men's clothes", could have cost me my life. I have been the traget of violence as both a "girl and young woman" and later as a visible androgyne/butch lesbian in adulthood.

Interestingly, if I were to "transition" to become a man I would most likely still deal with the threat of violence whether I "passed" or not ... as any free thinking and non "macho" man is at risk. Perhaps a different type of person could transition and escape this outcome but I am not that person ... nor would I want to be.

It seems that we all take risks when we step outside of the mainstream ... the risks may be higher at an earlier age if we are born with female anatomy or if we are born with male anatomy yet show charteristics that are assigned to women and are associated with feminity.

Ultimately, anyone who resists conformity and who works for justice and equality is likely to become the target of violence.

For me ... it is worth the struggle and danger in that ... those who are targets also serve arrows of hope.

May we continue to show courage.

Best,

JB