Another question.

[~Nova~]

I went full time in November of 2011 and I'm having my surgery July 11. I was full time except work from May 2011 and my therapist took that into account when he wrote the letter. He did tell me he is the he writing the letter and it's his professional opinion that matters do time is not relevant in his mind. Only the readiness of the person.

I started hormones on March 19, 2011.

Integrated? Dunno. I have a lot of unhappiness in my life, but my mind is clear and when I don't have outside forces pushing me down, I'm happy.

I've had more than 40 years to prepare, I'm ready.

[Guest vtphoenix]

I'm having surgery in a little over 2 weeks. I have had some stops and starts, basically been in the process of transitioning for the last 10 yrs, but have been full time for the last 2. I think we need to be careful when we look at integration because it seems like a pretty subjective experience to me. How would we define it really? Just curious.

[Sakura]

It is hard to explain what i mean , with out coming a cross like i have a superiority complex. as it is something i do often with out much thought on it and feels as natural to me as breathing, hmmmmm ingeragtion as i would deffine it. it is the part of transition that happens, after transition ? like when the new wears of something and you just own it, like when the new car stops being the "new" car and its just "your" car. things like affirmation and validation become relatively meaningless, and just expected. and you begin taking your own gender for granted much like every other cis gendered person . best way i could put it

Sakura

[Paula ult]

I hope i understand what you are saying, that integration happens only after transition is complete, i take this to include after srs, i think integration can start before srs, for me it did start before srs and continues to this day, there are people that can not have srs for whatever reason and they are still integrated into society as women.

I have a good friend who started her transition at 18, hormones and had BA and that is as far as she went, maybe it was money or at the time she felt no need to go further, she is a successful hairdresser and is as integrated as one can get except being able to have sexual relations with a man as a women, a little over a year ago at the age of 43 she finally decided to have srs, many questioned why she decided to have it now at her age, she just wanted to be complete.

In my daily life as i am just another women going about her daily life, i don't even think about it anymore, the clothes, shoes, jewelry etc are mine, i get called ma'am, miss, honey etc, i hear those words but i do not get a thrill out of them anymore like i did at the start of my transition, yes those words used to validate and affirm that i was headed in the right direction, now they are just words, in the beginning i used to spend an hour putting on makeup and selecting an outfit to wear to run to the store, took me longer to do that than to drive to the store, get what i need and return home, now i will put some lipstick on and go, it seems to make no difference everyone still sees another older women.

Paula

[Guest vtphoenix]

Here's an interesting thought, do you think that talking about trans experiences and taking part in activities that remind us that we are trans gets in the way of integration? Like is it possible to be integrated with cis women as a woman while still regularly owning your trans identity? What about to people who knew you before you transitioned?

[Sakura]

I hope i understand what you are saying, that integration happens only after transition is complete, i take this to include after srs,

Paula

No paula . what i am trying to say is that integration can happen before srs . and i am a huge advocate that transition. is never really complete. i mean humans threw out their lives learn new things almost every day. i feel it would be foolhardy at best to claim one could condense the entier experience of a gender into a few years or even 10 or 20.my self included in there.

Hmm, that is an interesting idea phoenix, but i feel a better question would be, " if you regularly own your trans identity, is full intergration or stealth , really a pressing concern to you ? " not asking you specifically , just a general question. a large factor i feel in this, is how big a part of ones identity is transsexual. i also beleive that having a safe harbor is a good thing, a place to speak openly about trans issues or experiences. being stealth is exhausting, and sometimes it is nice to drop your guard a bit , but when i exit out of this chat room or forum. most of the trans stuff is left at the door.

though i would like to thank every one for thier replies. i love opinions, gives me things to ponder

Sakura

[Guest kelise]

I'm not sure I could ever take my gender for granted. Much like a child who grew up in a rich family, never has to work for his money, and inherits a fortune, never appreciates money and can never really relate to lower classes (cough*Romney*cough) whereas a child who grew up in a poor working class family and caught a lucky break, worked hard and became successful will appreciate his money more and understands the working class better. Even after five years, I still get kinda giddy when I get a female pronoun, even though I VERY rarely get male pronouned, because it reminds me of the struggle I went through.

Stealth is not that big a deal to me, depending on how you define stealth. It is the information age. With ten minutes on the internet and some basic info about you, anyone who knows what they're doing can find out anything they want to about you. If you define stealth as going about your average day, and not wearing an I'm trans sign around your neck, having average joes on the street interact with you as necessary without ever knowing you're trans, even having most co-workers (I think) in the dark about it, then yes, I'm stealth. But if stealth means having everyone other than your blood relatives not know you're trans, including friends, lovers and employers, forget about it. Any standard employment background check will turn up old info about you, like your old name, old credit history, etc. Name change orders are public record. A progressive company may not even tell you they know, but they know. Get pulled over by a cop, doesn't matter if your license says a female name, a sex of F, and a girly picture, as soon as the cop runs the license through the computer, guess what, there are all your past licenses. And long term relationships and friendships, it's just not worth the stress of worrying what will happen when, not if, WHEN they find out. No matter how hard you keep your guard up, some old documaent or person from your past is going to turn up give you away. I prefer to tell people early, on my terms, so that I can rest assured they know and they're ok with it, and I'm not giving myself panic attacks worrying If they know. Now if the zombie apocalypse happens and everyone I know is dead, and the government has collapsed and all records of my past are destroyed, and I'm one of the few survivors, maybe I'll go stealth, but until then, it's just not worth it.

[Guest vtphoenix]

Kelise - that has been my basic attitude too. I did have a coworker come up to me one day and say that she knew me "from before". When I shrugged, she was like, "You know I know, right?" And I said, "I just assume that everyone knows, but I don't openly talk about it a lot because it is a personal issue and I just want to be seen as a normal woman." She seemed to understand this although she has come back and asked me several questions from time to time - which is okay, except I get tired of answering the same questions and people are not very good about observing boundaries when it comes to trans issues.

For example, I'm married to a woman, which completely blows most people's minds. They think I must want to be with a man (I'm sure we all get this!) and the truth is that I'm bisexual but I'm happy with the woman I married and she's happy with me, so why would I want anything different? I just tell people that trans women can be bisexual or lesbian just like any other woman, gender and sexuality are not the same issue.

But would you go up to a non-trans person and ask them if they are gay? Would you ask a non-trans person some variant of: but what can your partner see in you? Because I get that question too. People assume that anyone in my partner's position would look elsewhere. It's true that she is much more accepting than most, possibly the most accepting person alive lol but it seems like a rude question to me to ask: but won't she miss IT (my penis)?

Strangers always assume more familiarity with trans people. It is a boundary issue. Because what we're doing flies in the face of their ideas of normal society, they feel that we owe them explanations. It's tough to find a balance between educating people (who clearly are just curious and trying to learn about this issue) and privacy (we don't owe anyone an explanation on our love or sex lives or anything else).

So, anyway, I've found that people seem to treat me as a normal woman, even ones who know I'm trans, but I try not to talk about being trans very much as it becomes just a constant reminder that I'm different. I don't typically tell people that I'm trans but I don't try to hide it either. I grew up in this area for the most part (central VT) and a lot of people knew me from before who I encounter on a regular basis. So far it doesn't look necessary to scrap everything, move, and start a new life in order to have a pretty good, pretty normal seeming life.

[Guest DesiB]

If I am reading you correctly, Sakura, I agree that there may be too much emphasis placed on the genital surgery. Time lived as yourself is what matters most and that may be accomplished with or without genital surgery. I'm 4 months post-op now, but I dont feel like some sort of child because of it. I'm a 49 year old woman who has led a difficult life. But I've always been me and have a whole life's worth of experience at that.

To more specifically answer your original question, I was not able to transition fulltime until the day I retired at the beginning of March 2011. Then I had my GCS in February of 2012. So you could say it was nearly a full year. But things are never this simple. I was on hormone therapy for over a year back in 1997-98. Then I was temporarily fired from my job as a firefighter and had to stop my transition cold turkey and pass psycholgical evaluations to get my job back so I could make it to my earliest possible retirement at age 48. So does none of that time count for anything?

We also had an expression in the fire service about how some people had 1 year's worth of firefighting experience perhaps 10 times, while others actually had 10 years worth of actual firefighting experience. There is a huge difference. And I think that can apply to life in transition (or the RLT or whatever you want to call it). You can spend 5 years fully transitioned but also in relative isolation where you sit at the same lonely desk day in and day out. Or you can spend an single year (as I just did) as a substitute school teacher at dozens of different schools where every day you have to gain acceptance with yet another group of new people--and not just typical people such as coworkers and staff members, but the hyper-critical sexually curious and hyper-sensitive to concepts of identity kind of people, which are known as teenagers!! Should these two types of experiences both be measured in terms of years? Is a year a year, no matter what you do with it and 5 years is always more valuable or meaningful than 1? . . . just some food for thought

[Guest Catherine Sarah]

I have often wondered, Why the time line after srs ? and the inability on the part of long term post op trans folk to conceed that, that level of intergration is closely possible before srs . While i do assume there is a certain amount of both mental and physical elation that must go with finally having your mind and body in total congruance. but is it really the true cause of this personal intergration that can "only" be achieved 4-5 years after SRS ? I believe the awnser to be........

Well the theory that i have , is this . that it is not the operation wholey but that the aquasition of SRS so early in the transitional process , and the subsequent continuation of social intergration after SRS. Leads to construing the idea that SRS causes this evolution in thought and point of view , when the evolution and shift in perspective might have happened reguardless had srs not occured, in the same time frame as one who has been in pre op transition the same combination of years . more simply the same conclusion being come to eventually that seem to come , 5 years after the operation.

Many pre op transitioners Refere to what i am talking about as a " Post Op superiorty complex " or an "elitetist" additude often given to many long term transitioners( my self included ) , for their refusal to validate long held beliefs and points of view , held by many other and often newer trans folk.

Congratulations on such an excellent topic Sakura

May I just take a moment of your time and introduce a construct that you may not have considered in the 5 - 7 year integration equation.

I refer to the massive neural changes that occur due to the GRS. Regrettably due to profound lack of research on this matter, these changes may be responsible for more than just integration.

Not only is there substantial neural remapping of body parts, which in itself has to generate a considerably large resource of new synapses; the congruency matter would have to create an equal, if not more so quanity of new synapses.

If one was to use the neural reconstruction model of adolescent puberty in the male species as a near comparison to GCS. You may get some partial understanding of what's happening post GCS. If this theory has any credence.

The monumental changes the pubescence brain under go's due to hormonal and genetic restructuring, effectively makes the adolescent effectively a non productive functional member of society. Just look at the unusual behaviour of most high school students. One can usually account for the average adolescent male to be "off the air" between the ages of 13 to approx 18, 19. whilst this brain maturation process is taking place. Once the adolescent is "back on the air," it may still take a further 4 to 5 years for the individual to reach a more stable value of maturity, or in the case of GCS, total integration.

Hope this helps in some way. I may be totally off the planet with this, however with the lack of research, similar development cases have to be taken into consideration, in an attempt to make sense of it all. Thank you for your time.

Huggs

Catherine