Butch Lesbians and Trans Men ( Different Identities)

[Guest Juniper Blue]

I found this quote on butchwonders.com under the (odd) title: Why aren't all Butches Trans.

The article is well worth the read and the quote I liked best is as follows:

"A butch woman's masculinity is not different in degree from that of a butch man or FTM; it is different in kind."

I was surfing around looking for stuff on the Trans Umbrella and also found another cool blog called :

queersitionblogspot.com

Some interesting ideas about Butches are expressed there regarding their being placed (often without their consent) under the Trans Umbrella.

I personally had an interesting experience several years ago when I speaking (as a guest speaker at a sociology class) and I was discussing Gay History and my own personal experiences as an androgynous or "butch" Lesbian. I was describing my experiences as kid .. being a tomboy etc. and this guy just blurts out "YOU SOUND LIKE A TRANS MAN." I explained that I was not a man but that I was a "masculine" woman ... but this guy would not let it go and just kept insisting that I must be trans. I finally asked everyone in the class to raise their hand if they fit societies' gender expectations perfectly ... long pause .. NO ONE raised their hand and that was the end of it.

I am not sure who created the Trans Umbrella but it often includes Butch women and other groups such as Drag Queens/Drag Kings.

When I first learned that "Butch" lesbians were under this Trans Umbrella I was reminded of a (quirky) friend who likes to play a joke on people by informing them that the are Members of the ONE TRUE CHURCH and that he is its Founder and Supreme Leader ... He goes on to let them know and that their membership fees are overdue ... retroactive form the day that they are born. He then reaches out to shake their hand ( and those that do not immediately walk/run away in fear, stay to find out that he is a pretty funny guy.)

Anyway ... the Trans umbrella is kind of like this. Here I was living my life ... coming out as a lesbian at 18 ... being my cute little butch self and after about 20 years, all of a sudden, I find out that I am under the something called the "Trans Umbrella" and that some folks think that I am probably a man... some people even insist that I must be a man and that I just don't know it.

I am okay with it ... I have explored what it means to me ... I have not changed ... I remain a butch woman ... but society may be looking at who I am in a new way.

Hugs,

JB

[Guest Juniper Blue]

http://www.butchwonders.com/1/post/2012/01/why-arent-all-butches-trans.html

[KieranD]

This topic always makes me feel really uncomfortable.

You're a man if you identify as a man. You are trans if you identify as trans. Some folks don't think of trans men as men, some folks think of masculinity meaning male and ignore feminine men (including trans men). Butch lesbians don't fall under the transgender umbrella. They fall under it if they identify as trans.

[Guest shadowghost21]

Yeah you aren't trans if you aren't trans. You aren't a man or a woman if you don't feel that you actually are. I personally wouldn't want to be lumped under any category of people I personally didn't identify with. You are you, you are your own person

[Guest Juniper Blue]

The reality is that Butch women are often categorized under the trans umbrella .. perhaps this will change and some adjustment will be made as academics and/or the general public gains understanding (in time) but as it stands it is common that butch women are "lumped" under the Trans umbrella. (as are often Drag Queens and Drag Kings)

So, I am talking about general perceptions (and misconceptions) .. some are formally presented in lectures or in academic circles .. some are simply misconceptions that the average person may hold who knows little of trans issues.

I am bringing this up because there are often tensions between these groups based on individuals' desire to identify as they wish to identify ... These tensions are fueled by stereotypes of what it is to be "Butch" and what it is to be "Trans." It would be convenient if there was no overlap but there are times when experiences are very similar as in the case where a Butch woman may identify as Gender Queer, Androgynous or Trans. There are also situations where Transphobia or Homophobia can cause extreme discord.

On a different thread someone posted information on a blogger name "dirty white boy ". I had never heard of her and I was shocked by the severity of her hate. Sadly, I have known people like this ... it has been years but I once knew women like this. I think that the answer to dispelling this type of ignorance is compassionate dialogue .. but it is very uncomfortable.

Still these issues affect me and many people directly. For instance, when I had the bra burning party after the double mastectomy, several people who did not know me assumed that I was a trans man. This was despite the fact that I explained during the ritual that the procedure was done to treat a severe cystic breast condition caused by a pituitary adenoma. At different points in the night, people came up and said things like" Yes, my brother is getting his surgery to become a woman next September" and "Way to go brother!" ( I have a very typically female first name by the way.) So .. the general public does lump me under a new umbrella and I have had to look at my identity an re-define for myself where I fit. 20 years ago, I would have been a women who had a mastectomy to treat a medical condition but now, many assume I had "Top Surgery" and that I am on my way to becoming a man.

Trans men seem to hate being mis-gendered and misidentified as lesbian ... me, I am dealing with this new pattern of meeting people who are unsure of where to classify me. Some Butch women are probably taking this all in stride ... I try to .. others like "Dirt" are very threatened. Anyway .. I hope that this thread will help us to better understand one another even if we must go beyond our comfort zone.

Hugs,

JB

[Guest Juniper Blue]

BTW ...I appreciate your insights Kieran and Shadow. Thanks.

[Guest aleon515]

Well trans* (I still prefer this to the term transgender) might be an umbrella that covers people who don't want to be covered (if you get my drift). I think of it as transcending gender. Certainly butches "transcend" gender. But are still women. Still, I filled out a form for the transgender group today. Long story. And one question was what I identified as and I put "transgender not otherwise specified". I can't see a butch signing any of these.

If you want to think of a spectrum or continuum. Heck tomboys and effeminate boys probably would go on it. But not sure I like the whole spectrum anyway.

BTW, have you read Stone Butch Blues. Awesome book.

--Jay Jay

[Guest Zabrak]

This topic always makes me feel really uncomfortable.

Same.

That this "Trans Umbrella" even exists in some peoples minds is upsetting to me.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Hey Jay Jay when I was in my teens and early 20's a few lesbians suggested reading Stone Butch Blues and the Well of Loneliness .. these books were kind of considered lesbian classics at the time (that was just over 20 years ago.) Anyway, I have always been into non-fiction and never got around to reading them. I still have a stack of non-fiction books that I am working on and I doubt this will ever change.

You know, I first heard of the "trans umbrella" here on LP under a thread that was discussing Ru Paul.

I do wonder who came up with this "umbrella" ... there seem to be a few variations on it.

I think that calling it a "Trans" umbrella is seriously problematic ... in that some people will undoubtedly come to associate all that is listed under it as "Trans" ... further confusing the issues.

I think that it makes more sense to use some term like "Trans Gender and Gender Non-conforming Groups" (if we must use a title.) This type of thing seems to be commonly used in Text Books.

Anyway .. night all .. thanks for your input ... I hope to hear from more contributors. Like I said ... this stuff is kind of uncomfortable but maybe we can get some benefit from discussing these delicate issues in respectful ways.

Hugs,

JB

[Guest agfrommd]

There seems to be so much confusion between gender conformity and gender identity. Before I started meeting members of the trans* community, those two were mixed in my mind.

Classifying women as trans because they are don't conform to the traditional parameters of womenhood (i.e. are butch) furthers this confusion.

One thing that strikes me about the support group I've been going to is that the MtF women there are so ... macho. They talk about pro football and the additions they're building onto their houses and the upgrades that they're making to their computers, etc. Their conversation is far more typical of men than of women.

But they identify as women. They know they are women, and rightly insist on being called women because that's how they will always see themselves. It's up to the rest of us to adopt definitions of men and women that are wide enough to encompass all people who know they are men and those who know they are women.

I mean, who says being butch isn't womanly? Can't it just be another, just as valid, way of being a woman?

Got to get off my soap box, I'm getting acrophobia, but it does bother me that there are understood parameters for how men and women are supposed to behave.

[Guest Micha]

One of my first uncomfortable experiences here at LP was when Evan asked me "why label yourself androgynous or trans at all? Why not just be a feminine man." Totally rocked me, not because I was hurt or disrespected (I still hold him in high esteem, wherever he may be), but because I had to answer a very difficult question. I tried to justify my identity, and for the most part I think I did. Now I realize that the simple answer "just because" would have been sufficient, no one needs justification, no one needs a reason and no one needs to explain themselves. Plenty of previous posts above made my heart sing. Evan's question was one of sincere curiosity, and wasn't meant to demean me in any way, and it was worth answering. That also taught me the importance of patience and compassion, of the benefits of not being reactive and railing on someone who truly wants to understand.

I've made mistakes too. I've been guilty of sexism, cissexism, stereotyping and straight up ignorance. On more than one occasion I've been brutally punished verbally for my transgressions. It hurt, and I didn't deserve it. It's a sensitive issue, and people have a right to be defensive; but there's no reason to treat everyone who doesn't know everything with the hostility you would unleash upon an enemy. Minds are more open to learning when they're not under siege. Some minds won't open no matter how polite you are, but others will surely close up as soon as you start pounding on them in fury.

You're a man if you identify as a man. You are trans if you identify as trans.

it does bother me that there are understood parameters for how men and women are supposed to behave.

I couldn't agree more. You are as you self identify, and you don't owe anyone an explanation. Attempting to explain what you feel and why should be a means of education, not validation.

The umbrella is a tool for simplification, to help people understand and grasp an idea that is completely foreign to them. It is problematic because it fails in the same way any other stereotype or generalization fails. You can't know a person based on what other people do, even if they share some things in common. These things are socially damaging to people, not just in gender, but also in race, economic standings and other such segregating labels (IE not all Hispanic people are illegal immigrants, not all families on welfare are lazy good for nothings, etc). People are right to fight against these tools, but it's equally important to know your enemy, and not to attack a would be ally who simply doesn't know.

[Guest Zabrak]

I think that it makes more sense to use some term like "Trans Gender and Gender Non-conforming Groups" (if we must use a title.)

Whatever title you give it, it doesn't change the fact that it's wrong to clump them all in a group.

[KieranD]

What this topic always fails to address:

1. Butch trans women

2. Feminine/femme trans men

The other thing is that I don't feel as if drag kings and queens are necessarily trans*. You can be on one of those crime shows, but that doesn't mean you're a detective. You could be a detective and an actor, but being an actor doesn't make you a detective.

I also don't understand why this is posted in the androgyne section.

Dirt also hates on AFAB butches, saying that Rachel Maddow isn't really butch because when she was young she was really feminine.

It's called the "trans umbrella" because it's an identity that encompasses a lot of different identities. You could be genderqueer, androgyne, trans man, trans woman, agender, bigener, pangender, etc.

I don't feel as if butch is often classified under the trans umbrella. I feel that more often than not masculine trans men are written off as butch women (maybe it's a cultural thing? Here AFAB butch women are never seen as trans men).

[Guest aleon515]

I don't really read fiction too much either due to being autistic. But the book is really just a thinly veiled writing on Lee's life, I think. I am guessing, that not all the characters or events really happened.

As for the umbrella, I think it is a gross simplification. If you buy a concept like a continuum, which I am not sure I do, then it would make complete sense to include-- heck you include tomboys and effeminate boys. But if you don't buy it, it doesn't make sense to include it.

A continuum is just such a, well, sort of a cop out on the binary. OK, I hate binary but let's think of it as a continuum. I might not be making sense, haven't had my caffeine for the day.

--Jay Jay

[KieranD]

I don't really read fiction too much either due to being autistic. But the book is really just a thinly veiled writing on Lee's life, I think. I am guessing, that not all the characters or events really happened.

As for the umbrella, I think it is a gross simplification. If you buy a concept like a continuum, which I am not sure I do, then it would make complete sense to include-- heck you include tomboys and effeminate boys. But if you don't buy it, it doesn't make sense to include it.

A continuum is just such a, well, sort of a cop out on the binary. OK, I hate binary but let's think of it as a continuum. I might not be making sense, haven't had my caffeine for the day.

--Jay Jay

It's Leslie, not Lee!

[Guest Juniper Blue]

I mean, who says being butch isn't womanly? Can't it just be another, just as valid, way of being a woman? Quote:agfrommd

Great point AGfromMD.

Awesome post Micha.

Kieran and Zabrak .. these are things that I need to think and learn more about.

Zabrak .. I do think that it is problematic that so many groups are kind of bundled together in the general public's mind and even in some academic contexts.

Kieran .. it is complicated when Femme Trans Men or as AG mentioned "Butch ( masculine?) Trans Women" are lumped together with Butch Lesbians. We even often are dating people from the same groups: pansexual/bi-sexual/lesbian who see us through our transitions (FtM) or with women who then are participating in a lesbian relationship after we transition (MtF) or in my case Pansexual to Pansexual (or traditional lesbian by most general perceptions as we are monogamous and a long term couple.)

The examples of the "Trans" or Trans Gender Umbrella that I have seen, included Butch women who are "non-binary" ....

Now this gets confusing because I am sure that your average person on the street has any idea when they meet a Butch Woman if she is Binary or Non-binary.

it gets very confusign to me becuse most of my freinds do not adhere to gender stereotypes and so, the binary is physcial inthier case??

Kieran .. please explain to me exactly what that means ... I am not even 100% sure.

My situation is complicated ... I am very androgynous .. not just in appearance or in manner but in the true sense that I feel that I am probably intersex. My endocrine system is certainly very unusual as it has resulted in the removal of my Uterus, right ovary ( possibly soon the left ovary) and both of my breasts. I am legally AFAB nad I am not changing that status, nor do I wish to ... I want to remain my androgyne yet explore and evelop my abilty to express vulnerability, tenderness. I am not as "gender balanced" as I woudl like to be.

So .. I guess that I am a non-binary butch??

Kieran ... Butch lesbians do not get confused as Trans Men?? WOW ... I can't speak for others but looking at "Dirt's" blog ... I can say that more than of few (in that hornets nest) seem to be expereincing problems with this ... and I can speak for myself .. that yes ... over the last 10 years, it has been an issue in my life. (After the double mastectomy, even more so.) So, it is not just an issue for Femme Men or Trans Men in general... misgendering happens to butch women as well and thier is some confusion that some of us are FtM ( closeted or not yet aware of it.)

(Here AFAB butch women are never seen as trans men). Quote by Kieran ... I don't fully agree with that statement ( I amnot goign to repaet things that lhave leaned this way that have been said by LP members ... ) but I do want to let you know that ragrdless, "HERE" is not the outside world where I live. Perhaps our (Real Life) communities are different but where I live, this is an issue in my life.

STORY TIME:

Some of you know that I am a fraternal twin. I feel that the interconnection between Butch lesbians and Trans men is similar to my interconnection with my twin. The first question people often ask me is are you "Identical" (Seriously .. LOL.) Rather than dropping my pants ... I patiently educate people about the difference between fraternal and Identical twins.

My brother and I have shared 18 years of very similar environmental upbringing .. we were both very gender non-conforming ... Still, we both grew up to be "very tough" .. I believe in great part, because of this. He and I have grown to be completely different people ... he loves Rush Limbaugh and I love Rachel Maddow (Butch .. Femme?? Who Cares .. I love Rachel!) ... Anyway .. My twin and I are still seen as "Twinkies in the same package"

Similarly, I find that over the last 10 years, I must clarify my gender idnetity to differntaite form Trans Gender ... not so much among those who are "cis" ( they are just the idea that I am lesbian) but among those people who are"trans gender" that I have befriended over the course of my life.

One last point: I want to learn as much as I can. Most of what I have learned of Trans Gender issues has been on-line or from friends that I have met over the years. I do not wish to offend anyone .. I am hear to learn ... I am willing to teach as well, if anyone else want so learn about my personal experience.

Hugs,

JB

[KieranD]

I'm not sure what you want me to explain or what in that is directed to me.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

What this topic always fails to address:

1. Butch trans women

2. Feminine/femme trans men (Quote by Kieran)

Sorry Kieran ... I need more information on the above statement.

And Jay Jay .. I NEED MORE coffee too! LOL.

Back to:

I found this quote found on butchwonders.com

"A butch woman's masculinity is not different in degree from that of a butch man or FTM; it is different in kind."

It seems like this is more of what I feel. Like the Trans Gender is experience is often (misunderstood?) to be some kind of continuum. As if there was this continuum of gender under which we all fall. This doesn't fit my deep sense of how it works .. it is not like one can line up AFAB women and say here isa lesbian, here is a soft butch, here is a butch, here is a stone butch and AHA! here we cross over and NOW we have a femme Trans Man then a Androgynous Trans Man and now a Butch Trans Man (or whatever.) Uh .. that seems ridiculous to me.

When I talk bout the Gender Spectrum or Continuum I am talking about People's individual experiences of gender. And to be clear, YES, I feel that we are born with very clear dispositions of gender. Sometimes we may be like may partner, very feminine if her voice, movements, appearance yet also very analytical not very emotionally expressive, assertive, and generally dominant (in our relationship.) She kind of spans a gender spectrum .. even though she is a cis female. Her expereince of gender is like her fingerprint .. very unique to her .. and mine is very unique to me. Some of us are born like this with very mixed gender characteristics .. manbe most of us are .. others seem to be very clearly "male" or very clearly "female" .. when their bodies match these gender characteristics they are often called or assumed to be "Cis" when they do not, they are called or assumed to be "Trans Gender." It is my belief that ONLY WE can Determine OUR GENDER and that it should be our legal right to do this. Others can help us to discover ourselves ( if we are unsure) but ultimately, it is our "call".

Things do get complicated ( and please help me clear this up if I have it wrong) bu breast can get confusing when Gender identity ( our internal knowing of gender as it pertains to the physical sex that we emotionally identity with) does not match up with binary gender stereotypes as is the case with : Butch Women, Femme Men ( both Trans Men and Cis Men who are "sensitive or delicate, soft spoken etc.) or AGfromMD mentioned Women who are Trans Women but are not meeting (some or even most) of the Binary Gender stereotypes .. as in a Butch Woman who is MtF. So ... basically, there are times when GENDER IDENTITY does not match Binary Gender Stereotypes and the Gender Expression appears to be incongruous with societies' "norm". To make things even more complicated ... our bodies or our physical appearance may not be "statistically typical" for the listed sex on our Birth Certificates .. (the originals that we were born with.) and (on rare occasion) even after we are issued a corrected driver's license with our newly legal gender.

There was a thread on Determining Gender for ourselves .. it unfortunately was eventually locked because some tempers were very heated. But the issue was raised that even if we perceive ourselves as the gender that we know that we are .. there is no guarantee that others (in society) will see us this way.

There was also a thread challenging the idea of "Gender as a Social Creation" and asking if this is ideology in conflict "Trans Gender" ideologies.

These are big questions ... I agree with most people here that WE get to Determine if we are Trans Gender, Male, Female, Androgyne, cis etc. Still we cannot deny that a society that is still overwhelming abiding by Binary Gender Stereotypes, may disregard our truth... either by invalidating us entirely or by lumping us all together.

Sometimes I feel the the "Trans Umbrella" is similar to the Continent of AFRICA .. there are so many distinct and beautiful Countries within this continent, each with its own culture, ethnic diversity, and very rich personal histories ... yet still, so very often all of this goes unrecognized as everyone is LUMPED Together.

Sigh ...

Hugs,

JB

[JJ]

For me it is simple, Butch women want to be masculine, Or rather express who they are in a masculine way. I don't... I am just who I am and that is male, Not an expression of my sexuality or how I want to live my life but a fundamental part of me as my blue eyes, I can disguise it and try to fit in as something else but underneath I am a man,

I'm not butch -never was. Nothing wrong with being iutch but being a man in essence I can't be butch. Hard to define in words yet a very clear and distinct feeling for me, Funny thing is that I have known butch women over the years I believe were actually trans and others who I am sure were not, For reasons I'd be hard put to verbalize except in terms of the energy and feeling they put off. I can see why that would really confuse the general public, I strongly feel the difference yet it is hard to capture in words,

I guess the bottom line for me is that I am a man and no kind of woman-butch or otherwise and never could really identify myself as such no matter how hard I tried. I just am a man. Regardless of how I live or how the world sees me,

Johnny

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Butch women want to be masculine, I don't, I don't seek it in any way, I just express who I am and that is Male ( Quote by Johnny)

My experience ...almost identical but critically different:

I disagree .. Most Butch Women I know do not "want to be masculine" they were born with characteristics that share categorized by the general society as "masculine" it is not a choice and they cannot change or hide these traits any more easily than anyone else can hide their true nature.

Funny thing is that I have known butch women over the years I believe were actually trans and others who I am sure were not (Quote by Johnny)

Need I say more on that last statement?? ... Let the BUTCH WOMEN decide their gender and allow them to express their womanhood as they see fit without making personal assessments ( paired sometimes with outward statements) based on your own experience as a Trans Man and based on your projections onto these women who (often) do not solicit your advice ( especially with things like T.)

Handshake to you Johnny .. I respectfully disagree with you on this issue.

Best to You,

JB

[Guest Juniper Blue]

I am grateful to all who are participating in this conversation and I hope that we can keep positive dialogue going despite our varied views.

Thanks for sticking with is. It is kind of hard to discuss these issues .. at least for me.

So far ... it looks like no one likes to be lumped together and no one likes to be mi-gendered. We have this is in common.

[Guest agfrommd]

Amazingly thoughtful post Juniper. Really got me thinking.

Like the Trans Gender is experience is often (misunderstood?) to be some kind of continuum. As if there was this continuum of gender under which we all fall. This doesn't fit my deep sense of how it works

This is the way I feel too. I can identify female parts to my identity and male parts. More female than male? More male than female? How do you count them? I know I'm non-binary but as to where I'd fit on some continuum, anybody's guess.

It is my belief that ONLY WE can Determine OUR GENDER and that it should be our legal right to do this. Others can help us to discover ourselves ( if we are unsure) but ultimately, it is our "call".

That's definitely true, since it can only be seen from the inside.

But is there is more to it. We can be wrong about our gender.

If you asked me my gender a year ago, I would have said "male, of course. Just look at me." Didn't understand much about gender identity back then, but I was just as genderqueer as I am now.

Sometimes I feel the the "Trans Umbrella" is similar to the Continent of AFRICA .. there are so many distinct and beautiful Countries within this continent, each with its own culture, ethnic diversity, and very rich personal histories ... yet still, so very often all of this goes unrecognized as everyone is LUMPED Together.

Such a beautiful analogy.

Though doesn't being "from Africa" convey something about someone? At least you know they're not a New Yorker or not Chinese. If they seem like an interesting person, you'll ask them where in Africa and learn all about the customs and special parts about their particular country, but even without, you kind of know what they aren't.

Likewise, knowing someone falls under the dreaded umbrella, tells us what they're not - a straight cisgendered man or women and that if you truly want to know that person, you're going to need to know what part of "Africa" they identify with.

[JJ]

Actually I never addressed the women on their expression one way or another, I don't think I put what I meant well really,

To my understanding butch women see themselves or express themselves as masculine women, Which is fine, But essentially as women and I see myself as male, In no way female except some physical traits which have little to do with my identity other than make me loathe my body at times,

I believe that there can be butch trans women for sure, No problem with it, But not butch trans men because by my definition of the word it implies the person is female. Transmen sometimes come to hate the term because it is mistakenly applied to them -especially mid-transition yet is fundamentally not who they are,

I think historically some transmen have survived by living as butch women because there were no other choices, I was not judging them-or labeling them nor would I . I do in fact have reactions and observations about people. Just human nature and neither wrong or right as far as I can see. What can be wrong or right is how I act on them. I am not projecting a label on them-just getting a feeling that is strictly my personal reaction. And perhaps the decades of difference in our ages as well as the environments we have inhabited have made a difference. How restrictive the societies I knew actually were and are still in many ways is hard to exaggerate. If a transman found a need to express his masculinity he would have no options except to present as butch. I am sure that one or two of the people I have known were actually transmen trapped in an expression that was better for them but still not a fit, While other butch women were comfortable with their presentation and lives, It is that difference I was alluding to I think, It is there and it is real. Doesn't mean I am projecting or labeling, Just observing.

You are right about my use of the word choice, I used the wrong word I am sorry,

It is a difference in inner identification that is fundamental, That and that alone really, A butch woman is a woman in identity and a transman is male in identity, As basic as that, As far as what umbrella they fit under-I guess I'd have to say I will welcome anyone who wants to view their identity as trans, And respect that someone doesn't as well. Each individual should be free to identify who they are and where they fit for themselves, There are other members of the trans community I personally have a difficult time accepting in some ways-but that is my personal problem and not one I will ever verbalize here or anywhere else because while I may be uncomfortable they have as much right to their identity and inclusion as I do.

I confess right now I am also feeling very tired of the complexities of being trans and am really seeking simplicity. Doesn't make those complexities any less complex though and I should perhaps not try to tackle a subject as complex as the trans umbrella when I am not wanting to deal with complexities

Sorry if I was insensitive in trying to oversimplify JB.

Johnny

[KieranD]

Juniper Blue

Pretty much it seems like you're saying "butch lesbians and trans men" but mean AFAB butch lesbians and masculine trans men who are interested in women. You're generalizing and leaving out a lot of different types of butch women and trans men in your topic.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

No Problem Johnny .. thanks for explaining ... that makes more sense .. I realize too that when I used the term "Butch Trans Man" .. that it did not coming across as I intended .. I am using the term "Butch" to mean "Masculine" not "Lesbian" in the following illustration:

...it is not like one can line up AFAB women and say here is a lesbian, here is a soft butch, here is a butch, here is a stone butch and AHA! here we cross over and NOW we have a femme Trans Man then a Androgynous Trans Man and now a Butch Trans Man (or whatever.) Uh .. that seems ridiculous to me. ( My excerpt)

Any .. words .. eh. They are often lacking ...

Handshake,

JB