Butch Lesbians and Trans Men ( Different Identities)

[Guest Juniper Blue]

AGfromMD ... love your response. You made me smile.

Thanks for staying int he game Johnny .. this is an interesting topic!

Kieran .. please tell us more about the groups I am missing or that I am neglecting to include ... I respect your contributions very much as I often learn something new.

[KieranD]

AGfromMD ... love your response. You made me smile.

Thanks for staying int he game Johnny .. this is an interesting topic!

Kieran .. please tell us more about the groups I am missing or that I am neglecting to include ... I respect your contributions very much as I often learn something new.

I already pointed out the problem. Not sure what else there is to say.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Juniper Blue

Pretty much it seems like you're saying "butch lesbians and trans men" but mean AFAB butch lesbians and masculine trans men who are interested in women. You're generalizing and leaving out a lot of different types of butch women and trans men in your topic.

Okay .. so, I neglected to include feminine lesbians, androgynous lesbians, all straight women: ( both Cis AFAB and Trans Gender) straight feminine women, straight androgynous women, straight rugged looking women, all athletic women on steroids, people who are intersex , neutrois or in some other way gender neutral, androgynes who are gender fluid, gender benders, people with DID, drag queens and drag kings, delicate men ( of all types and origins) androgynous men of all types, traditional masculine or "Cis guys, super macho guys ... oh here is a more unusual variation .. I have a friend who is Cis, AFAB but often gets mistaken as a "Masculine" Trans Women .... Hmm .. I am sure I missed a few. My apologies. We might need a new topic thread to include every possible gender expression ( or non-expression as in Neutrois) But sincerely, if I left anyone out is was to narrow down the gender continuum for the very explicit purpose of addressing the point that Butch Women and Trans Men are often mis-identified. I am open to seeing a new gender spectrum .. or "Trans Umbrella" if anyone has one to offer. Please add any groups that I have missed.

But bottom line .. people get mis-gendered. That was my point.

[KieranD]

Juniper Blue

Pretty much it seems like you're saying "butch lesbians and trans men" but mean AFAB butch lesbians and masculine trans men who are interested in women. You're generalizing and leaving out a lot of different types of butch women and trans men in your topic.

Okay .. so, I neglected to include feminine lesbians, androgynous lesbians, all straight women: ( both Cis AFAB and Trans Gender) straight feminine women, straight androgynous women, straight rugged looking women, all athletic women on steroids, people who are intersex , neutrois or in some other way gender neutral, androgynes who are gender fluid, gender benders, people with DID, drag queens and drag kings, delicate men ( of all types and origins) androgynous men of all types, traditional masculine or "Cis guys, super macho guys ... oh here is a more unusual variation .. I have a friend who is Cis, AFAB but often gets mistaken as a "Masculine" Trans Women .... Hmm .. I am sure I missed a few. My apologies. We might need a new topic thread to include every possible gender expression ( or non-expression as in Neutrois) But sincerely, if I left anyone out is was to narrow down the gender continuum for the very explicit purpose of addressing the point that Butch Women and Trans Men are often mis-identified. I am open to seeing a new gender spectrum .. or "Trans Umbrella" if anyone has one to offer. Please add any groups that I have missed.

But bottom line .. people get mis-gendered. That was my point.

*facepalms*

You missed it.

You're saying "butch women and trans men" you mean "butch AFAB women and masculine trans men attracted to women." Not the same thing.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Let me try again

Pretty much it seems like you're saying "butch lesbians and trans men" but mean AFAB butch lesbians and masculine trans men who are interested in women. You're generalizing and leaving out a lot of different types of butch women and trans men in your topic.( quote by Keiran)

Okay:

Butch AFAB (assigned female at birth women) and Masculine trans men that are both attracted to women ... as opposed to Trans Gender Women who are "butch" and attracted to women/lesbian, and masculine trans men who are attracted to other men??

I am missing something ...I am sure. Or maybe my point is getting lots in the typing. I wish we could talk face to face. I think what I am trying to clarify a this point is that anyone in any of these groups can be and often is mis-catagorized when it comes to gender. But I want to to focus, specifically, on this issue as it pertains to Butch AFAB Women who are lesbian and are sometimes confused and mistaken for masculine Trans Men who are attracted to women (straight)... It seems that these two groups are often confused (either direction) and even our histories are tangled. Because of this, tensions sometimes exist between us that may be eased with productive and positive dialogue.

JB

[KieranD]

Oy

What I am saying is that it seems like you are talking about AFAB butch women and masculine trans men who are attracted to women. You say "butch lesbians and trans men" but you don't mean "butch lesbians and trans men."

Anybody of any gender and any gender presentation can get misgendered. Feminine presenting, cisgender woman might be called "he" every now and then. It happens with everybody, however when it happens to trans people it's usually due to transphobia/cissexism. If a butch woman is killed, the news paper isn't going to use the wrong pronouns over and over and talk about how this person is butch in the way it's brought up in articles about trans people.

[Guest aleon515]

I think the major difference between transmen and FAAB butch women (as there are a LOT of differences re: presentation, hormone use, etc.) is this: transmen do not consider themselves women-- and in fact are not. Butch women regardless consider themselves women. You can do the whole spectrum thing and all sorts of other issues.

I understand that crossdressing is considered part of the trans "umbrella", so there you are.

And of course we can have a good discussion. Who needs any bend out of shape thing.

Gender expression is an interesting subject. Of course there are all sorts of people who "break" the rules, including tomboys.

(Tomboy is so typically part of being a girl as to be not very telling of anything at all.)

--Jay Jay

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Thank you for clarifying Kieran ... when I started this thread I meant for it to be open to EVERYBODY here ... AFAB Butch lesbians or trans women who are lesbians ... I guess I should clarify that ... but, you are correct, the focus is on AFAB Butch Lesbians and Masculine Trans Men who are straight/attracted to women.

I initiated this thread to address topics that came up under the thread "What does the F word mean to You" ... that thread branched into a discussion about "dirty white boy" ... (a very transphobic AFAB butch woman) who is venomous in her verbal attacks (and outings) of Trans Men ( straight gay and other.) But I am open to any discussion on this subject.

I have thought more about trans women who are lesbian. My first "official experience" with a Trans Gender Woman who is Lesbian was at a meeting at the Gay and Lesbian Center around 1990. She wanted to join the group and there was some drama as the idea was discussed ..( I am not gonna' lie )... but things worked out and she joined us. Interestingly, within 6 months, she was leading the meetings and the room was packed! ( she was quite feminine and very attractive. I am not sure if this had anything to do with her popularity.)

At about the same time, There were two women who were involved with a (Exclusively) Lesbian Music and Art Venue .. they were very butch ... they handled all of our sound and lighting. They seemed most comfortable and were fully welcomed in this "women's only" space.

This was in Orange County, California about 20 years ago.

Unfortunately, as you pointed out .. not all stories are so pleasant. Trans-phobia is alive and well and the media is still ready to exploit it.

I still can't get over "Dirt's" blog though ... it was pretty ugly ... I felt like I wanted to start this thread as a way to address this specific issue and I wanted to leave it open so that we can go on to explore similar tensions that exist between AFAB Butch Women and People ( who are also lumped [correctly or incorrectly]) under the "Trans Umbrella".

So .. maybe we are branching in this direction? I'm listening ...

Best,

JB

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Oh my goodness Jay jay .. you dog is soooooooooooooooo CUTE!!

[Guest aleon515]

Oh my goodness Jay jay .. you dog is soooooooooooooooo CUTE!!

Thank you. She thinks so too!!

I was VERY bothered for days after reading that women's blog as I am somewhat on the transmasculine whatever it is. I think she is a fairly sick woman with so much venom and hatred for what is actually a small (though perhaps not as small as some people think) population. There is no actual epidemic of transgender or anything. Her hatred to me, seems like a reflection of her own insecurities and self-hatred. Happy secure people are not haters.

I am guessing she has hurt people with her venom, and that is exactly what she means to do. If I read a post mentioning "horror stories", I am pretty sure they have read her blog (or of it anyway).

I'm so sorry that you read this stuff. It isn't worth filling your mind with.

--Jay Jay

--Jay Jay

[Guest Juniper Blue]

I agree Jay Jay .. "Dirt" seemed like a very miserable human being ... her negativity will not help anyone and it is detrimental to her own health as well. I try to ignore people like this when I encounter them in my life ... I try to not feed into their drama but it is not always easy. I do feel a certain responsibility to speak out and oppose them ... to stand up to this type of thinking and offer new perspectives. Usually, they become unpopular .. in a work environment for instance, most people don't like to see a person beating up an another person who is not doing anything wrong. I did have a situation last year at a ceramics studio where I was outnumbered .. there actually was one other person who was being harassed ... another woman who was trans gender (MtF per-everything) .. but she didn't want to "out" herself and did not want make waves by speaking out .. even though she was also being harassed and treated unfairly. Anyway, I ended up leaving and I took my partner and my best friend with me ( we are all ceramicists) .. we also took ALL of our money and future business with us. The new studio is great .. it is a bit of a drive but we are all fully welcomed and respected. Maybe it helps that the owner is gay .. i don't know, by the atmosphere is more of what I am used to in Art Communities ... very open and accepting.

I am a big believer in working together .. putting our differences aside and standing strong in situations like this.

In Solidarity,

JB

[Guest Melancholy]

You aren't a man or a woman if you don't feel that you actually are

Exactly. The tangibility of gender is only a real as you believe it to. It's like money. If you actually think about it it's really just paper.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Great metaphor Melancholy ...

But I wish I had more of that paper!

[Guest Lacey Lynne]

Yo, Blue!

Like, we saw MANY such people at Portland Pride this weekend! They really rock! It's all good!

Hey, I LOVE following your topics though I often do not post upon them due to time limitations.

Peace, Bro/Babes Lacey Lynne

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Lacey!!! Let's streak our beautiful bodies across this page! I miss being crazy with you! It is so hard being crazy alone!

[KieranD]

Thank you for clarifying Kieran ... when I started this thread I meant for it to be open to EVERYBODY here ... AFAB Butch lesbians or trans women who are lesbians ... I guess I should clarify that ... but, you are correct, the focus is on AFAB Butch Lesbians and Masculine Trans Men who are straight/attracted to women.

I initiated this thread to address topics that came up under the thread "What does the F word mean to You" ... that thread branched into a discussion about "dirty white boy" ... (a very transphobic AFAB butch woman) who is venomous in her verbal attacks (and outings) of Trans Men ( straight gay and other.) But I am open to any discussion on this subject.

I have thought more about trans women who are lesbian. My first "official experience" with a Trans Gender Woman who is Lesbian was at a meeting at the Gay and Lesbian Center around 1990. She wanted to join the group and there was some drama as the idea was discussed ..( I am not gonna' lie )... but things worked out and she joined us. Interestingly, within 6 months, she was leading the meetings and the room was packed! ( she was quite feminine and very attractive. I am not sure if this had anything to do with her popularity.)

At about the same time, There were two women who were involved with a (Exclusively) Lesbian Music and Art Venue .. they were very butch ... they handled all of our sound and lighting. They seemed most comfortable and were fully welcomed in this "women's only" space.

This was in Orange County, California about 20 years ago.

Unfortunately, as you pointed out .. not all stories are so pleasant. Trans-phobia is alive and well and the media is still ready to exploit it.

I still can't get over "Dirt's" blog though ... it was pretty ugly ... I felt like I wanted to start this thread as a way to address this specific issue and I wanted to leave it open so that we can go on to explore similar tensions that exist between AFAB Butch Women and People ( who are also lumped [correctly or incorrectly]) under the "Trans Umbrella".

So .. maybe we are branching in this direction? I'm listening ...

Best,

JB

I'm not sure why you mentioned the femininity and attractiveness of a trans woman. Were trans women welcomed in that women's only space? Even now trans women tend to need to fit that standard of feminine and attractive in order to go to women's events, or queer women centered spaces. When they get to those spaces, they're usually outed if somebody seems interested.

I'm not sure what "similar tensions" you're talking about. Tensions between AFAB trans women and masculine trans men?

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Hey Kieran,

Well .. I was trying to lighten things up by implying that the woman who joined the group and quickly came to lead it was a "HOTTIE!!" And I guess the point is that ... (whether this is politically correct or not) .. lots of people tend to welcome beautiful women. We all knew that she was in transition ... We also knew and respected the fact that she was happily married and was not interested in dating anyone. I don't think that her looks truly gained her popularity ... She was funny, thoughtful and smart and we liked her. I am not sure if we would have liked her less if she looked like a bloated toad ( ceratinly some of the women in group were a bit "ugly" and they were okay) .... but again, all I can say .. is that amoung straight, gay, trans, butch, femme etc. etc. people .. being attractive rarely seems to hurt the situation when you first meet. I am not a big fan of this reality .. especailly as I age ( na resmeble the anphibian world more and more) .. but hey .. it is what it is... I am feminist and this is on my list of things that I wish could be different .. it is on the list but not at the TOP of the list .. I put the fight against rape and incest and violence against women a bit higher in my ist of Feminist Causes.

By the way ... The women who ran the sound and light at the (women's only) lesbian art and music event were both very butch (and Trans Gender). I don't even hink they sahved thier legs and they were conseiderablwe overweight. ( So they fit righ tin!!) The woemn were not sterotypically femine and they didn't seem to be aiming inthat direstion. I would not be surprised if they played football in high school ... but again, they were funny, kind and smart ... and .. they knew what heck they were doing! Who cared if they were transitioning .. Theses women were welcomed and we liked them very much. ( I was a singer in one of the bands and I was pleased that they we willing to be our sound and lighting crew. They didn't mess up!)

Now this was about 20 years ago in Orange County. Maybe even longer. There had been several hate crimes at that time against lesbians in my community as well as others in the LGBT community.. I was targeted and was almost run down by a truck filled with young men yelling a lesbian slur. I had things thrown at me an dmy parter an dwas spit upon. No one could stand and talk in the parking lot outside of our "Center" because people would through bottles at us as they drove by. The other "Center", lacated at an old Victorian House, had been burned down in the late 1980's. We called our new .. very plain brown stucco office building the "Center" because it was not safe for us to out up a sign that said anything more. In the late 80's and early 90's "Gay" bars were being raided .. we could not even kiss at the bar because we could get a ticket for lewd conduct if a cop came in and wanted to harrass us. In the ealry 90's, We took to marching in the streets with ACT UP and Queer nation .. right up Garden Grove Blvd.

So, maybe "we" were more welcoming than many lesbian communities have been to other women who are trans gender ...

Spaekign for myslef ... I learned a lot .. FAST .. even as an ignorant young kid from a working class, conservative, "bigoted" upbringing, I learned when I came out .. that we all bleed .. that we all hurt and that we needed to stand together.

When I address "tensions" .. I am wondering about the tensions that may exist like this point:

Were trans women welcomed in that women's only space? Even now trans women tend to need to fit that standard of feminine and attractive in order to go to women's events, or queer women centered spaces. When they get to those spaces, they're usually outed if somebody seems interested. (Quote by Kieran)

I am not really in the LBGT scene these days .. I have freinds from all walks of life ... it is hard for me to get out much becuse of where i live and becuse I am very low income at this point in my life. The last Queer Event that I attended was "Sister Spit" maybe 6 months ago at Pasadena City College. All kind of people were there ... Many people were Trans Gender, Gay and Lesbian, Pan-Sexual, Bi-sexual .. A-sexual , Questioning, Straight, you name it. Some of the poems were very raw and sexually graphic ... some were highly political and involved underrepresented topics like casual unprotected sex with an HIV positive partner and Gay sex between AMAB Men and T Men.

Everyone seemed to enjoy the work and eachother. The event with Sister Spit was about the art .. about respect .. visibilty and building community.

You know .. I find that all of the letters, abbreviations, and other terms are very confusing for me .. it might be a dyslexic thing .. I don't know. But I get so confused. When you were asking about Trans Butch Lesbians, I thought you were askimg about me and if I "qualify" as trans ... you know ... with the "Trans Umbrella", I am not sure how to answer ... I might say that I am AFAB, FtM,MtA .. but my preesent journey could be seen as AtF ....At this point in my life, to be honest, I am sick of the letters .. for the record .. I am just ME.

So let me just be Me .. (and cut me some slack) ... and I will continue to communicate as I can .. imperfectly .. but sincerely with you or anyone here at LP.

Best,

JB