10 years FT, Florida wants to switch my ID back to "M"

[Guest Lacey Lynne - Free Spirit]

My GT told me there was a new law in FL that states if you have a note from your hormone doctor that you're in transition from male to female and are currently on hormones and living as a woman that they can change your gender marker.

I believe Lizzie McTrucker is right.

Though I'm not sure, I believe Lizzie's gender therapist was my original gender therapist who actually diagnosed me and approved me for hormone replacement therapy. I told her that my now-ex-wife wanted to move to Oregon. She said it would be a good idea to get out of the south. She was supposed to retire and move out here too. I guess that did not happen. Anyway, I experienced threats in Florida many times and am currently experiencing doctor discrimination after-effects from the Florida doctor who originally wrote my hormone replacement therapy prescription nearly 3 years ago.

On my second visit to him, he told me to tell my therapist not to send any more patients like to him, because treating people like us is not what he went to school for. This guy was the medical chief (top doctor) in a huge hospital in Florida's most famous area. Then, shortly after that, I get a letter from him dropping me from his medical practice for no reason whatsoever. Well, I KNEW the reason.

No problem. I refused to pay the balance I owed him ... about $200. I told his office manager, "Hey, no problem! He drops me from his practice for no reason, I drop his fee from my life for a good reason. Heck with him!" Screw the mo'fo', baby.

Anyway, I believe Lizzie is right about getting your gender marker on your license in Florida. Mind you, I lived in Florida for 31 years, so I know a lot about it and understand what are saying is actually true.

Now, I went to the SSA myself just this past Monday, and they WILL NOT give me a female designation until I'm postoperative with a letter from a doctor examining me for female genitalia. Then, and ONLY then, will the SSA give me the female designation. That's what they told me. However, who cares? Not me! I'm legally Lacey Lynne and legally female, so I don't give a rat's rear whether agencies think I'm this, that or the other gender. Will it affect my life? Nope! I won't let it!

Mind you, I'm nearly 3 years on hormone replacement therapy and often get called "sir" even with B-cup breasts and a girlie figure. Does it bother me? Used to. Not anymore! When somebody calls me "sir" somewhere, I just say, "Yo, thanks, bruh!!!" whether that person is male or female. It's a hoot! Heck with gender markers and pronouns. Just rock the house and enjoy life!

Good luck with your gender marker! I believe this can and will work out for you in FLA.

Peace & Joy Lacey Lynne

[Guest AngieT]

UPDATE

I visited the DMV again this afternoon to clarify what the requirements are for changing the gender identifier on my license "should I decide to move back here." Again I was told that I needed to get a Florida court order before the DMV would change that. All that they can do at this point is to issue a license with my new name, but former "M" gender marker. I askd to speak with a supervisor, (who was convieniently in a meeting) but who came out to speak with me about 45 minutes later. I explained that i had been informed that the gender marker could be changed with a letter for a physician, and she confirmed that. I then asked why I required a court order to have mine changed, versus the normal procedure.

The problem with my situation is:

1. SSA lists my sex as female;

2. I remain in a valid and existing Florida marriage;

3. Same sex marriage in Florida is illegal.

- If I were single and simply changing the gender marker, there would be no conflict with Florida law.

- If I were married but SSA records still indicated that I was male, I would still officially be considered male and my FL marriage would be valid.

- As long as SSA listed me as male, I would still legally be male, regardless of what gender is listed on my license. My "problem" is that SSA already lists me as female.

In my case, if DMV changes the gender on my license, my ID and SSA records would effectively make me female, but in a marriage to a woman, i.e. in an illegal same sex marriage. DMV will not issue a license that would create a conflict with existing Florida law, so they require that I either provide them with a valid divorce decree, or that I get an order from a FLORIDA court to absolve them of any potential liability.

I'm not going to nullify my 19 year marriage over this, although considering this weeks vote in WA legalizing same sex marriage, I have other potential options ot consider.

At this point all I can really do is establish an address in WA, renew my WA license, then weigh my options. WA is my true home regardless.

[Drea]

In my case, if DMV changes the gender on my license, my ID and SSA records would effectively make me female, but in a marriage to a woman, i.e. in an illegal same sex marriage.

Sorry, there are lots of married trans folks and I am aware of no cases where the transition of one and modification of documents such that both are now the same sex automatically voids the marriage. I just don't see an issue.

[Guest AngieT]

The terminology I used to explain my situation may seem overly simplistic, but was written in what I consider to be an easy to understand format. Marriages may not automatically be voided, however the DMV apparently doesn't want to be put in the position of issuing ID's that could potentially conflict with state law. They want to cover their butts and place the burden of clarification and/or decision firmly in the courts hands.

I'm sure that there are a lot of trans couples in Florida, I'm just not sure how many actually fall under the exact same sircumstances. Honestly, I don't see an issue either, however the people I've discussed this with at the DMV aren't quite as optimistic or open minded. What would you do if you were in my shoes?

[Guest LizMarie]

This sounds spurious to me. You are already married and federal law requires states to recognize marriages performed elsewhere, I believe. I think they are running you around. Can you seek GLBT competent legal counsel?

[Guest Melissa~]

Oh, If I were in your shoes? Visit a different DMV, check for consistency. you only have to find one to fix your problem. There are over a hundred DMV's in Missouri, they all have equal access to change data, a single sympathetic office could fix you up.

[Drea]

Why eveh bring up marriage with the DMV? Like they aren't experts on all state law.? They issue marriage licenses too? Though you don't need a marriage license anyway because you are married.

I am sure there are hundreds in the state if not thousands where both of a married couple have a FL drivers license that says F, SSN record says F and even both birth certificates say F.

The fact is that ANY marriage involving one parter that has changed genders is subject to legal challenge if someone was really motivated to do that. It can be an old marriage where both partners are female after one transitions MTF because now both are female. It can be a new marriage of MTF with a man that gets challenged because of the MTF not really being a woman.

Such challenges tend to only occur in instances where someone it motivated to. Sometimes in divorce, sometimes in death and family want's the money and tries to deny the trans partner. These things do happen and any trans person is well advised to have a will, trusts or whatever to insure proper inheritance just in case someone does try to challenge it.

I know of no instances where the a state has gone and challenged such a marriage, but I suppose if the state felt the marriage was entered into in a fraudulant ways to deny the state taxes or to get state services then a state might be challenge but I am not aware of any instances.

It seems to me that poking at the issue with the state agency trying to get the state to somehow validate the marriage and say "yes gay marriage of this sort is okay" is a useless and probably futile exercise. It wouldn't be the first time someone tries using thier trans marriage as a means to try and set gay marriage precedent. If you keep poking at it, you essentially put yourself into the positiion of challenging your own marriage and the only likely outcome would be bad for you as a minimum and has the potential to set negative pecedent against marriages involving trans people as a group.

Now if your intent is to create some sort of precident and willing to risk your marriage and potentially the marriage of others, get an attorney and go at it.

Or you can just do the practical thing get your license then update it.

Getting a license out of washington state would be illegeal if you do so claiming residency in that state while residency is in florida. And then there become the issue of taxes. You going to file them in Washington or in Florida? What about your spouse? Either way you file you have a problem. If you file in WA while residing in Florida, Florida can see that as evading state taxes. If you file in Florida then you are in trouble with WA for not filing taxes there.

States aren't going to worry much about a couple involving one transgender person, but they will worry about not getting their taxes.

[Guest Paradox]

Drea,

Quite practical advice. Well done!

Angie T,

I feel for you. I really do! But when you move from an ultra-liberal state to an ultra-conservative one, you have to know there will be major differences in the practices of the two societies. I bounced between Washington State and Texas for many years, and each time I had to adjust my thinking to approximate theirs. Short of some massive outside force intervening on your behalf. they can not realistically be expected to change their ways for yours. That is why LGBT advocates fight so hard at the National level using the pooled resources of the L, G, B, & T.

There are times when basic counsel from a lawyer is a good investment. This sounds like one of them.

Stay safe,

Debra (the paradox)

[Guest AngieT]

Why eveh bring up marriage with the DMV? Like they aren't experts on all state law.? They issue marriage licenses too? Though you don't need a marriage license anyway because you are married.

I was asked by the clerk at DMV when she saw a wedding band on my finger. I answered truthfully and lawfully. When information is changed in the DMV system, a record of the old information is still maintained. My status is somehow tied into that. We're all tracked by our SSN, and SSN disclosure is mandatory in accordance with federal law when anyone applies for a license, driver's license, marriage license, cosmetology license, fishing permits, etc. Lying about my marriage status isn't, in my opinion, a very prudent choice.

I am sure there are hundreds in the state if not thousands where both of a married couple have a FL drivers license that says F, SSN record says F and even both birth certificates say F.

I don't know of any, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. They may have been successful, but I'm batting 0/2 at the moment.

The fact is that ANY marriage involving one parter that has changed genders is subject to legal challenge if someone was really motivated to do that. It can be an old marriage where both partners are female after one transitions MTF because now both are female. It can be a new marriage of MTF with a man that gets challenged because of the MTF not really being a woman.

Such challenges tend to only occur in instances where someone it motivated to. Sometimes in divorce, sometimes in death and family want's the money and tries to deny the trans partner. These things do happen and any trans person is well advised to have a will, trusts or whatever to insure proper inheritance just in case someone does try to challenge it.

I know of no instances where the a state has gone and challenged such a marriage, but I suppose if the state felt the marriage was entered into in a fraudulant ways to deny the state taxes or to get state services then a state might be challenge but I am not aware of any instances.

I don't have much to say about legal precedence. I may not agree with how things are run, but it's really something that I have no control over.

It seems to me that poking at the issue with the state agency trying to get the state to somehow validate the marriage and say "yes gay marriage of this sort is okay" is a useless and probably futile exercise. It wouldn't be the first time someone tries using thier trans marriage as a means to try and set gay marriage precedent. If you keep poking at it, you essentially put yourself into the positiion of challenging your own marriage and the only likely outcome would be bad for you as a minimum and has the potential to set negative pecedent against marriages involving trans people as a group.

Now if your intent is to create some sort of precident and willing to risk your marriage and potentially the marriage of others, get an attorney and go at it.

For me, it's never been an issue of "out and proud," but rather an issue of "please leave us to live our lives in a way that makes us happy."

Or you can just do the practical thing get your license then update it.

That's an option I really prefer not to exercise. Considering all the problems I'm currently having, is the practical option always the best option? If it comes to legal action, do I really want to sacrifice what I have now simply for the sake of practicality? Is it worth being discriminated against for possibly years simply for a chance that the courts may come to a less biased opinion? I don't consider that an option I wish to pursue.

Getting a license out of washington state would be illegeal if you do so claiming residency in that state while residency is in florida. And then there become the issue of taxes. You going to file them in Washington or in Florida? What about your spouse? Either way you file you have a problem. If you file in WA while residing in Florida, Florida can see that as evading state taxes. If you file in Florida then you are in trouble with WA for not filing taxes there.

Not necessarily. I'm a WA resident, and have been for many years. I have firm intentions to return there. While I may have physical presence in FL, such doesn't automatically make me a FL resident. FL is full of tourists and people whose primary residence is outside of the state boundaries. Technically speaking, I have no residence here. My name isn't on the lease. The car is in my spouses name. I'm not working, and I have no desire to permanently reside here. Based on that, I'm not much different than a tourist at Disney World. Tax wise, FL has no state income tax, so there's no tax evasion issue. I can (and have in the past) lived outside of WA while working, but as long as I file all required state tax paperwork, they have no problems. Federal taxes aren't really influenced by residency and thus largely irrelevant.

Honestly, I'm tired of the crap here in FL. I'll leave here eventually, so there really isn't much of a reason to endure the pains of local residency.

[~Nova~]

I'm still married.

My dl says f

My ssn says f

My bc says f

I love in floida

[Drea]

I was asked by the clerk at DMV when she saw a wedding band on my finger. I answered truthfully and lawfully. When information is changed in the DMV system, a record of the old information is still maintained. My status is somehow tied into that. We're all tracked by our SSN, and SSN disclosure is mandatory in accordance with federal law when anyone applies for a license, driver's license, marriage license, cosmetology license, fishing permits, etc. Lying about my marriage status isn't, in my opinion, a very prudent choice.

It all seems relevent to me. So what, someone asked at the agency? Yes so the information is tracked, so what? Want to know a little secret? Washington state does it too. And you know what else? As far as the feds go, it doesn't matter what state puts on driver's license or legality of same sex marriage in the state because the feds use the SSA record and the feds don't recognize same sex marriages. You say your SSA record has you as F and your spouse is F, have you been filing individual tax returns all this time or been filing you fed return as married filing jointly?

Most couples where one spouse transitions continues to file married filing jointly even after getting the SSA records changed. This has been allowed and transition of one doesn't invalidate the marriage. This is something that a couple that gets a same sex marriage is legally prohibited from doing at the fed level.

I'm still married.

My dl says f

My ssn says f

My bc says f

I love in floida

Well that is one example. Obviously it isn't an issue.

If you do make your residence WA, just make sure your employer knows this and handles the appropriate WA state and local taxes and I guess your spouse would also have to be a WA resident. Similarly pay the appropriate if any are required as an out of state resident employed in Floriad. Cause tax evasion is something to be worried unlike these other issues.

[Guest AngieT]

First off, Nova, I'm glad that the system worked as intended for you. That aside, that the procedure worked in your case doesn't necessarily mean that all DMV offices will interpret and execute the changes in the same fashion. There will be varying interpretations, but the question is: Which interpretation is the most legally correct?

******

I was discussing this situation with a friend in another support chat, and she sent me a copy the text from the FL DMV manual. The manual as it pertains to gender change is as follows.

State of Florida

Driver License Operations Manual

License Requirements

LR14 - Gender Requirements

LR14.1 - Overview

Florida Statutes require customers to present proof of legal name, lawful presence, social security number, proof of gender, and two forms of residential address.

This section provides policy and procedures that examiners must follow to establish a customer's gender for driver license or identification cards issuance. It also provides guidance in cases where a customer requests a gender different from the one that appears on their Florida driver license/identification card or the primary identification.

LR14.2 - Requirements

LR14.2a - Establishing Gender

A customer's gender is taken from the primary identification provided for driver license or identification card issuance. If the customer requests a gender different than the one on the primary identification, they must follow the procedures listed in LRl4.2b.

If the primary identification does not list a gender, the office manager will be required to approve a secondary identification to establish the customer's gender.

LR14.2b - Gender Change

Customer's changing gender must provide a signed original statement, on office letterhead, from the attending medical physician. The Department's policy on gender change requirements follow standards established by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), recognized as the authority in this field by the American Medical Association. This medical certification must include the following items:

1. Physicians Name

2. Medical license or certificate number

3. Issuing state or other jurisdiction of medical license/certificate

4. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) registration number assigned to the physician

5. Address and telephone number of the physician

6. Language stating that he/she is the licensed physician for the applicant and that he/she has a doctor/patient relationship with the applicant

7. Language stating the applicant is undergoing appropriate clinical treatment for gender transition to the new gender (male or female)

8. Language stating "I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States that the forgoing is true and correct": and

Note:

* A medical statement is not required to correct an examiner error.

* If a customer advises that the gender on his/her primary document mistakenly lists the wrong gender due to typographical error, refer the customer to the appropriate issuing agency for correction.

* Sexual reassignment surgery is not a prerequisite for a driver license or identification card issuance and such documentation must not be requested.

LR14.3 - Examiner Conduct

* You must be sensitive and respectful at all times.

* Ask only appropriate questions regarding information necessary.

* Handle this discreetly.

LR14.4 - Name Change

Information about name changes can be found in the Name Change section.

* In accordance with Section 741.212. Florida Statutes, marriages between

persons of the same sex are not recognized in Florida.

* If a customer has satisfied all name change documentation requirements as per Name Change Requirement procedures, and the documents do not reflect proof of same sex marriage, proceed with issuance without questioning the customer.

LR14.5 - Recording Name. Date of Birth or Gender Change Documentation

The following procedures should be followed to record a gender change in FDLIS.

***************

Most of the information is fairly well known, but in my case section LR14.4 regarding name changes seem to be the most pertinent.

While changing ones name and changing ones sex designation are certainly two separate issues, the tone for generally accepted DMV policy seems to revolve around LR14.4 It's interesting to note that despite all the important information contained in this document, the only part of the section that was underlined for emphasis was LR14.4 to remind personnel about the illegality of same sex marriages in Florida. Likewise it sets policy that instructs agents to issue licenses only if documents do not reflect proof of same sex marriage. In my opinion, many agents interpret that policy to also apply to gender marker modification.

[Michelle 2010]

Honestly, I'm tired of the crap here in FL. I'll leave here eventually, so there really isn't much of a reason to endure the pains of local residency.

Pardon my late arrival to the discussion. I just read it in its entirety. I must say, it sounds as if you have a wonderful life: same loving spouse as pretransition, supportive parents, friends who love you, etc. Actually, a life many transgendered people hope for but are afraid is out of reach. You have also received a balanced and thorough amount of input here.

Somehow, it seems the lynchpin to the stability of your dream life hinges on an F on your DL. Your perception is (despite input from transitioned and transitioning Florida residents) that that you are trapped in a Kafkaesque world which leaves you in a sort of powerless limbo; at the verge of emotional ruin, correct? You seem a little heavily invested emotionally in being trapped in a situation that leaves you stuck and victimized by a large faceless entity.

So... maybe the wisdom of your own words should weigh out as most important. If your spouse has a "decent" or "pretty good" job in Florida, I would think its equivalent exists back in Washington. You have worked so hard to have a wonderful life over the last decade, plus the years we all go through leading up to your transition which included a lot of pain, no doubt. If I felt as powerless as you do, and the stakes were as high as you say they are (emotional flameout), I would very strongly consider the basic survival strategy of returning to Washington sooner rather than later.

Its possible that your ability to thrive as a well adjusted post transition woman is put at too great a risk by the roadblocks you are facing. Washington might be the best way to continue living the life you love. The stakes seem very high for you in Florida. It may simply not be a place you will thrive... You seemed to have returned to a place that brings back a lot of emotional baggage and bad memories and they are affecting your ability to navigate the current unpleasantness.

Best wishes and good luck on your decisions.

Michelle

[~Nova~]

I must be missing something.

Customer's changing gender must provide a signed original statement, on office letterhead, from the attending medical physician. The Department's policy on gender change requirements follow standards established by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), recognized as the authority in this field by the American Medical Association. This medical certification must include the following items:

1. Physicians Name

2. Medical license or certificate number

3. Issuing state or other jurisdiction of medical license/certificate

4. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) registration number assigned to the physician

5. Address and telephone number of the physician

6. Language stating that he/she is the licensed physician for the applicant and that he/she has a doctor/patient relationship with the applicant

7. Language stating the applicant is undergoing appropriate clinical treatment for gender transition to the new gender (male or female)

8. Language stating "I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States that the forgoing is true and correct":

There are the 8 things you need on a letter. It can be any doctor from any state. I'm sure if you ask your HRT prescribing doc for a letter they will write it.

I was still only part time when I changed my marker so I really don't understand why you are having such difficulty. Get the letter, get your other papers together and get a new DL. Simple

[VickySGV]

With all the legal discussions going on here and no one mentioning a state bar license number for Florida in evidence, Kathryn Julia did mention the ACLU, but we have an advocacy group of actual lawyers who are doing nationwide work for Name Change issues, I myself have met the folks at the following web site, and since I am academically qualified to shop talk with them, have had good vibes. This particular page is about Name Change issues they are willing to help with. I am pretty sure they can quickly give you the basics on what needs to be done and can be done. I contribute money to this organization and that is not something I do without some confidence. One of their projects there is just for New York, but the people I have talked to are eager to take some of the problems there cross country.

http://www.transgend...k_show.php?id=7

[Guest Daiyu Hurst]

One thing that you may have failed to consider is the ACLU. You are licensed as female in Washington State. All of your ID states that your gender is female. You might become a test case and the ACLU might be able to help without a huge expense on your part.

Give them a call. See if they can help you fight this. KathrynJulia

^ This. Three non-op trans women in Illinois demanded the change of the sex designations on their Illinois birth certificates. Illinois refused. They contacted the ACLU, who sued Illinois on their behalf, and won. Their sex designations were changed on their birth certificates.

And changing birth certificates is generally harder everywhere than are driver's licenses.

[Guest Ebany]

Have you considered going to another DMV and just not wearing your ring. It is blatently apparent that you meet all of the stated criteria to change the marker on your FL license as long as they have no proff that you'll be in a same sex marriage if the marker is changed. they don't ask for marriage licenses; if i was going to stay in the state, i'd be willing to play the part of being single for a few minutes. I do feel for you; I currently have a legal name change with an original gender marker. i have no hope of changing my bc since i was born in a very backward state that doesn't allow it and i don't have the money to even attempt to change that. Honestly, if it was me i'd find a friendlier state to call home. Or as you suggested, keep a residence in your true home state and just 'visit' flordia for as long as you have to stay there; i know people that are still residents of other states after 5 years here. I likewise, would never change my marker with SSA back if i was able to get it changed.

Danny