Why Do They Not Like Us?

[Guest bronx]

I 've often wondered 'cause it baffles me. Why is it that the LGB community is so transphobic. My expierince with the community hasn't been the best since I came out as a transman over 10 years ago.

Back when I was living as a lesbian I worked in a lesbian bar and I was active in the lesbian community. I was always me. I always pretty much had the same thughts and actions I have now except I'm a bit older. As soon as I found a name for who I was I was shunned. I was told by some that I had left the "cause".

Well as far as I know it was us trans people that stood up to the police during stonewall. We helped to pathe the way for GLBT rights. So why do they not like us?

When my wife who is a closet bisexual came out to her lesbian friends and told them that she was with me they shunned her.

I thought that when we fight for equal rights we fight for all. What happened?

[Sally]

Dear Bronx,

The sad truth is that very few people ever fight for equal rights - they fight for equal or superior rights for their own particular group.

While it is true about the trannies at stonewall and all of the whites marching through Selma, these are in the minority. The majority of people fighting for a cause have a vested interest in its outcome - the betterment of conditions for all human beings never seems to fit their own agenda.

You will see people of all colors trying to get some sort of imigration reform, some for tighter, totally restrictive and some for open borders and citizenship from vending machines. Somewher in the middle is where we need to be, but people with huge companies who can save millions by using undocumented workers don't want either - if it's totally closed their new workers would really draw attention and if it's totally open they would have to pay decent salaries.

Sometimes the motives are obvious, like money or power, with the LBG it's a little more subtle - society always has to have someone to fear or hate, it's the force that causes people to band together and form governments to pass laws against them and armies and police forces to protect themselves from the 'common menace'. With a greater acceptance of the GBL Community, they realized that we need someone to fear and hate along with the reat of society. Guess what - we're it! They keep the T on the end so that they can say to us, "We are working for you, too please continue to send your money and donate your time to our cause." What they mean is, "Send us money spend your time to help us advance while we turn our backs on you and claim not to know anything about you if questioned."

We are concidered the leppars of the modern society and saddly I haven't seen a Father Damion to help turn that around!

Sorry, I can't put a happy spin on this one!

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest DeniseNM]

Well Bronx I myself have wondered why some in the GLBT community won't accept us B's & T's (I am bisexual as well as transexual) and it has always baffled me. You would think they would be more open-minded but alas such is not the case. I see the same thing here at the VA Center I am at right now with the vets who are in the homeless program and deal with addiction (alcohol or drug), you would think they would be more open-minded and less judgemental and prejudiced because of what they have faced but again such is not the case. Why it is that way I don't know, all I do know is that it is what we have to deal with. I choose to let them be "ignorant fools" (as my friend Ana calls them) and be a better person than they are. Just don't let them get you down or pull you or your wife down to their level okay, you are much to good a man for that.

Denise

[Guest Elizabeth K]

I wondered that myself. My therapist is a medical consultant board member of two groups here. She warned me the GLBT group and the transgendender community (MTF, FTM and CD) are not always on the same page. She didn't say why.

My guess? I am not a therapist - this is an opinion:

the GLB part simply cannot understand the T part. I spite of all the prejudice and abuse the homosexual community has to face, they just don't 'get' us. Like the 'normal' world they don't want to change their sexual equipment, so why the heck do we have such a big issue over it? Their deal seems to be sexual orientation issues - exclusively.

Well, we can also have those sexual preference issues, us transsexual especially, and I suggest that is why the "T" is added at the end of GLBT.

But I feel sometimes it was an afterthought. For example CDs, whom are usually put in the sexual dysphoric catagory with us, are historically hetherosexual. Personally as a MTF I can't tell you if I am hetero or homo? After SRS, if I stay with my wife, or if I want to be with a man, what does that make me? Personally (again) I just don't care what I am called, I will always be transsexual. Sexual orientation can be very muddy with transsexual, androgyne, intersexual and the rest of us.

Perhaps that confuses the GLB community.

Another thing? How many here still have a bit of homophobia in you - and still call yourself gay? Be honest!

Heck, I still have a bit of transphobia in me and I am transsexual!

Sally nails it pretty well when she says they are a selfish group. We are a selfish group. I think it is human nature to be selfish.

Someone said, "Why can't we all just get along - after the police beat him to a pulp for being African Ameican and talking back to them (of course that was Rodney King - I don't mean to be coy - it was for a dramatic effect). BUT they riddiculed him in the press for saying that! RIDDICULED HIM! Actually the fact he was riddiculed - simply for asking why we can be more humane - caused me a bit more grief than the actual terrible mistreatment.

Shame on us all - as humans we really need to get a bit farther up that evolutionary ladder - or perhaps a more spiritural idea, get closer to what God intended.

Great Aunt Liz competes well with Great Aunt Sally on the soapbox/pulpit/dais/rostrum doncha think??? (gotta new thesarius for Christmas)... Is been a bad start so far this year - sorry.

[Sally]

Sorry Liz, if I've had a negative effect on you!

But just as another of my wierd observations - have you ever noticed that almost the only organizationsthat have the words Humane or Ethical Treatment are for animals and never human beings?

I try not to preach or lecture or be a 'downer', but some subjects do tend to get to me. I'm only human too!

I think that intolerance bothers me because I have felt that way in the past and it took a great deal for me not to hate myself for being one of 'those people' - now I have to deal with having been one of 'those other people'!

I also was brought up in a Christian church where we read the Bible and see that Jesus accepted and helped every one without checking their history asking their beliefs - just because they were people and needed help. It saddens me to see religion used as a guise for bigotry and it is with great regularity.

So as you can see this post did hit me (and probably a lot of others here) because of our past indoctronation prior to being able to decide for ourselves. I have come a long way and have further to go, I need to forgive others for intolerance and forgive myself as well.

Sometimes when someone holds up a mirror, we don't like what we see, even if it is in our past - it was a part of us and we must work very hard to make sure that it stays in the past.

I hold no grudge against the GBL, they have the right to embrace or reject any one that they choose. We should be aware by now that you can not make someone accept you if they don't want to!

I'm a little calmer now and a bit more introspective, so I'd better go lie down, Great Aunt Sally has done a lot of thinking today!

Love ya all,

Sally

[Guest mia 1]

Really Sally I never thought about Jesus accepting everybody no matter their beliefs. I always think of the "Christian Right" the people who say they love you as long as you believe exactly as they do. I am sorry for those who beleve that we are left out of theLGB{T} community, I personally have had no problems with prejudices against my lifestyle.

Naively I think we should take each person as they come along on an individual basis and not label an entire group genderphobic. I would bet the last nickel in my 401k{which is probably exaxtly what I have} that the vast majority of the LGB{T} community considers us their brothers and sisters.

Liz what do you mean a bad start for this Year? Don't mean to cross this thread Bronx,hope you and your wife can tell those few bigots to stick it! Good luck to all Mia.

[Guest bronx]

Mia don't worry about it. Infact I really don't care what the LGB cumminity thinks about me, my wife on the other hand thinks a little different than I do. I've always belived that it really doesn't matter what you are It's more about what kind of person you are. I don't think that every person that is in the LGB community is transphobic just like I don't believe every heterosexural is homophobic it's just that the ones that are let you know they are.

I happen to ID as a heterosexual male but that doesn't stop me from speaking up for gay rights, I think everyone has the right to be.

[Guest Evan_J]

I can't, and won't attempt to, comment on groups I never interacted among. My opinions can only be regarding lesbians and then as I saw them.....

There are multiple reasons. a) Members of the lesbian community who "hate" men (and yes, there are those) see us as nothing more than enemies who have taken off a mask. Most of those I think are the ones who also "decide" and "turn" lesbian (words that always made my skin crawl....). And usually they do it because of past pains and sins committed by men.

The other reason is b ) some lesbians , who feel marginalized in terms of "priviledge" -yep, male priviledge- are angry because they feel we're "getting something they're denied just because we're willing to change our bodies". They don't understand, accept, or care that in truth for us the body was the "last bit" we needed to match the rest of what was already male. Lastly c ) there are those who honestly are still keeping themselves imprisoned in wrong bodies out of fear of transitioning or fear of criticism and so they say it out of 50% jealousy and 50% anger at themselves for not having enough courage to do what it is they ought to do.

[Guest bronx]

You know Evan, I totally understand what your saying, I remember a woman telling me once that all I wanted was male priviledge and I had forgotten about that till you mentioned it. Why would my modivation for matching my mind and body be male priviledge. not to mention I'm a black man.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

I can't, and won't attempt to, comment on groups I never interacted among. My opinions can only be regarding lesbians and then as I saw them.....

There are multiple reasons. a) Members of the lesbian community who "hate" men (and yes, there are those) see us as nothing more than enemies who have taken off a mask. Most of those I think are the ones who also "decide" and "turn" lesbian (words that always made my skin crawl....). And usually they do it because of past pains and sins committed by men.

The other reason is b ) some lesbians , who feel marginalized in terms of "priviledge" -yep, male priviledge- are angry because they feel we're "getting something they're denied just because we're willing to change our bodies". They don't understand, accept, or care that in truth for us the body was the "last bit" we needed to match the rest of what was already male. Lastly c ) there are those who honestly are still keeping themselves imprisoned in wrong bodies out of fear of transitioning or fear of criticism and so they say it out of 50% jealousy and 50% anger at themselves for not having enough courage to do what it is they ought to do.

Evan

Never saw it the way you explain it - FTM viewpoint especially. Great observations.

I know many women's rights advocates - especially the more militant female types - hate the transgender MTF community - the slander statement "Men in dresses" comes to mind - I recall Gloria Stienhem may have said that, please don't quote me.

But can you see why? We MTF adore being called girls , gals, chicks and the like. We are so desparate in our need to affirm our female identity we will GLADLY accept being third class citizens (behind natal women) as T-girls. Meanwhile, much of the GG population is looking for equality. We MTF wanna march, but it may be because we want to be members of the woman's rights club, for all the wrong reasons.

But for example there is no glass ceiling for us because you have to be employed to have one affect you. We seem out of place, somehow. We haven't got a chance for acceptance by the women's rights group when we act like that.

So the GLBT ain't the only one out there chil'ren looking askanse at our community...

[Guest Cody_T]

I think that Evan really hit one of the main reasons lesbians dislike trans men. The other GLBT discrimination is slightly more closeted (pun intended ), but lesbians seem (from what I've read) to actively consider transitioning as treason.

I only have dated information from books that I've read, but from what I understand, the lesbian movement was very tied into the feminist movement. The idea that you don't need men in your life, you're equal in status, women can do whatever men can do- those are all things that being a trans man goes against, if only in their eyes. Women obviously identify pre transition trans men as one of them, so learning that the person you thought was just a great example of women being equal to men is actually a man can be a pretty negative experience for people whose ideology is built around that idea. This was my sort of interpretation... the next is paraphrase of what I've read:

In Jamison Green's book Becoming A Visible Man, one of his lesbian friends suggests (pre transition/coming out) that he ought to go to a gender clinic, have them diagnose him with GID, and then announce that he was a woman as an attempt to discredit them. When he admits that he's thought a lot about actually being trans, she's really surprised. He also says that transguys threatened femme lesbians who were afraid all the butches were going to become men, and butch lesbians who were afraid the femmes were going to like the transguys instead of them.

In Dhillon Khosla's Both Sides Now, the girl he likes tells him that her orientation is too politicized for her to be with him, even though she's actually either bi or straight (forget which).

And for the girls here... in Riki Anne Wilchins' Read My Lips, there's this creation of Camp Trans (or something to that effect) across from Michigan Womyn's Music Festival because they had evicted trans-identified festival goers through the policy of "womynborn womyn only."

So basically, lesbianism is/was somewhat political, and since they consider themselves to be subjugated by men already, someone they considered one of them "becoming" a man is one of the strongest affronts there could be. But even worse than that would be a 'lesbian' dating the said trans man, because of the politicization and the sort of pervasive idea that men are evil (not that everyone even realizes it), seeing as the woman is pretty much abandoning the lesbian community, at least in their eyes. And then of course, feminists are evil. Basically.

disclaimer- I know nothing of what I speak... I don't know any lesbians, I don't know any feminists, I don't know any trans guys in person either... or trans women... in fact I'm really pretty uninformed about life as a whole. But I thought I'd just throw this stuff out there because I thought it was interesting when I read it. So feel free to ignore my interpretations

[Sally]

Mia,

The "Christian Right" has done more to damage Christianity than any other group! In the Bible that I have read and do reread from time to time, Jesus healed leppars, had a tax collector as an apostle and had prostitutes among his close followers, he not only told parables about Samaritans (a much despised group at the time) he even associated with them, There is even a story of him speaking to a Eunoch! (Don't ask me where - I don't quote the bibble by Chapter and Verse) It seems that if you 'Thump your Bible' too much all of the understanding and forgiveness seems to drop out!

The problem with subjects like this is we do use generalizations!

My favorite is, "All rash generalizations are wrong!" (So that's a rash generalization, then it's wrong so that means that all rash generalizations are right so it must be right, then... )

I know that not all of any group feel the same way - not even the "Christian Right", they are more like minded through heavy indoctination, but some are more tolerant than others.

I mentioned in answer to another post and it applies her we are not talking about Black and White, we are using a gray scale! And every group and sub group has it's own gray scale. Society tries to group everybody into the same or a hanful of small compartments and the fact is that can't work - too many individuals, too much variation of environment and too many different view points.

I don't want anyone to think that I have anything against the GBL as a whole, three of my best frineds were gay - I say were because they all decided that Texas wasn't the best place for them and moved away. I miss thoose guys & girl.

I try to be tolerant and treat everyone as an equal - I'm no better than anybody else! Seeing how people who know about my being TG have begun to treat me has made me a better person! I am more aware of how much little things can hurt!

The whole princilple that they used to teach in church and in school should be brought back, remember the "Golden Rule"? "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I try to live by that rule, but I find myself slipping at times and I have to stop and say, "Sally, do you really want him to get out of his car and come punch you in the nose?" Guess what - I'don't!

Love everyone, it's no harder than hating everyone!

Sally

[Guest Evan_J]

You know Evan, I totally understand what your saying, I remember a woman telling me once that all I wanted was male priviledge and I had forgotten about that till you mentioned it. Why would my modivation for matching my mind and body be male priviledge. not to mention I'm a black man.

Here's the thing, when its said ("male priviledge") we think of status or influence economically or politically, power, position. Yes, in some senses that is what's being referred to. And in a lot of those senses a black man may not have so much (even though one is the president of the United States ). But, (and this is where, actually Barack being president of the United States plays into what they mean) even as black men, even as latino men, even as whatever kind of men there's a certain point (and you gotta admit this with me cuz we even do it among trans men) where if 30 people get together for something and 18 of them are men the likelihood of those 18 men unifying without even speaking about it on the grounds that "they are all men" exists. If 30 people are together and 24 of em are men not only will the unity exist they will darn near unanimously swing the vote, converation, or menu over dinner to suit them as a group easily preferring to compromise to one another before allowing a female to divide them. The fraternal spirit is alive and kicking amongst males in a broad sense. Females must "know" one another, there must be "consent" for them to bond and do whatever as a unit. Not so with men. So to them they consider this "bond" , "unity" "unspoken agreement" "priviledge" when really it isn't its just (cough)sexism. Sure, left alone we'll splinter by race, creed, or whatever else and war but when women are about? one group. So then whatever power or office is available then is passed among them before "an outsider" (aka Hilary Clinton here if you wanna go back to Barack as the Democratic candidate.)

And I'm not saying Barack wasn't the "better" candidate for all of our good, but surely , you have to know that a man will choose another man no matter what other differences they have in a situation like that (at least at this point) than a woman.

<--steps aside so they can throw fruit

[Guest April63]

Barack isn't president yet. Not till January 20. And hopefully he does a good job, but I doubt he will. But that's a tad off topic.

I think part of this may be that we are different and we are part into different groups. The gay crowd may not like the transsexual crowd just because they are different. Gays don't want to transition into the other gender. The straight crowd doesn't like either crowd too much, because they don't want to transition or sleep with a person of the same gender.

Most people don't hate the other crowds, but just see them as different. There are the more extreme groups that really don't like us, or any specific group, but today, most people just see us as different. That difference is an excuse for jokes, but not hate. And most people realize that, and thus don't truly hate us.

April

[Guest Evan_J]

Barack isn't president yet. Not till January 20. And hopefully he does a good job, but I doubt he will. But that's a tad off topic.

.....that and you missed the entire point of that reference.

Gays don't want to transition into the other gender.

What about all the gay transgendered people?

And I'm sorry, but if the majoritiy of a given population strike down my being treated like a human being on the grounds of my transgendered status -and thats what it means if you vote to abolish a human rights ordinance because it will include transgendered folks as a protected group against hate motivated crimes, being discriminated against in employment, and being discriminated against in housing- you hate me.

Not knowing why my penis looks a little different from someone elses is "seeing me as different". Saying its not illegal to refuse to let me live someplace even if I can afford it, be fired or harrassed, and stalked and possibly killed as long as its because I'm transgendered is HATE.

I'm sorry, but there's really no way to "soft sell" attempting to legalize injustice.

[Guest April63]

I didn't miss the point, I just didn't comment on it. I chose to comment on only my feelings about Obama.

I'm sorry to disagree, but I must. I don't believe all of that is hate. I think that word is being overused. Hate is an extreme dislike. Merriam-Webster defines it as an "intense hostility". In some cases this definition may apply, but I don't think it always does. As we as humans, do not always fully understand our situation, environment, or neighbors, it is possible to have a view on a group of people that is more negative than positive, but not hate the group, and especially not hate the members of the group for being part of that group. So to apply it to us, some people may not understand us, and thus look down upon us, but they do not necessarily hate us, but rather do not have a complete understanding.

April

[Guest Evan_J]

And so because of this "lack of a complete understanding" while you get murdered its reasonable that the murder in question not be addressed as motivated by your trangendered status even if in fact it was? Rather, its reasonable that we say......your presence, as it was contrary to an understandable human being, "provoked" your murder? That in effect, it was due to your own failure to be understandable that you were murdered? .....any second now I'm gonna have to reanimate your dead behind just to arrest you for provoking such a thing

[Guest April63]

I wasn't exactly referring to murder... but what I was trying to say was that hate is not the cause but a lack of understanding. The lack of understanding about the transgender status can cause people to view us differently, to create thoughts such as "eww" or "weird", and to the more extreme cases, cause them to treat us differently. Murder could be considered hate, I'm not arguing about that, but employment discrimination is not necessarily hate.

April

[Guest Evan_J]

I wasn't exactly referring to murder... but what I was trying to say was that hate is not the cause but a lack of understanding. The lack of understanding about the transgender status can cause people to view us differently, to create thoughts such as "eww" or "weird", and to the more extreme cases, cause them to treat us differently. Murder could be considered hate, I'm not arguing about that, but employment discrimination is not necessarily hate.

April

Here's the thing, to someone who actually hasn't thought out the ultimate consequences of the their actions -the individual perpetrating the employment discrimination lets say- they easily might convince themself that this activity "is doing nothing more than keeping one person out of one job". The truth is though that in committing that act they a) give their condonement to any witness that any discriminatory act against this person is just, are accepting the role of accessory before the fact in any subsequent misfortune that occurs due to the absence of that job c) are contributing to an unfair image of members of that group as "unemployed", "leech on the system", or "unskilled and uneducated and therefore unemployable" if their action is seen as a sign of "permissability to discrimination" and is repeated. That one "not hateful" act can, in the long run, be the beginning of stereotype and stigma applied to an entire catagory of people causing groupwide inability to not only be employed but function in any one of a thousand capacities made readily available to persons not in that group. What is "not hateful" about crippling an entire catagory of human beings in their ability to function with dignity and respect?

[Guest April63]

The intention of these people may not be to cripple our ability to function. If a friend of yours does not support you in your choice to transition does that mean he hates you? I wouldn't say so. So similarly, actions such as not letting you have a job, do not necessarily mean hate. They're just not supportive, probably from lack of understanding or other beliefs.

April

[Guest Evan_J]

Oh you are so wrong If a person claims to be a friend of mine the first requirement is they aren't someone who is willing to accept being ignorant. And at the point that they express or demonstrate a lack of understanding to my transition or transgendered state I think enough of them as someone who doesn't want to live in ignorance to offer whatever information or understanding of either thats possible. That would mean I also make sure they understand the scope and depth of the pain this causes me. If at that point that individual can say "I will not support you in this" I know that person is not my friend, but rather someone who has a poor understanding of what a friend is actually more caught up in the trappings of dogmas and ideologies than love for me. Is it hate? If that individual then maligns me to someone else, yes, actually it is, because theres a disregard as to what that other individual may do with the stilted information. If that individual contrives to hinder or impede my transition, either physically or emotionally, again, yes that is hateful since that action may ultimately cost me my life through initiating an unnecessary depression or despair. So my criteria for friendship is "high" by your standards. And maybe should not be referred to if you hope to prove your point.

Similarly, choosing to take the roof from my head, heat from my body, and food off the table by discriminating against me in a job and by example condoning like treatment from others will get you tagged as "hateful" by me. Probably right before I start trying to figure out how to get your house and your food to replace mine. But I'm vindictive like that. It's a reaction to hateful behavior.

[Guest April63]

I give up. I have tried to argue my point, but it seems impossible to get it across. Just to make sure things are clear, I don't support the discrimination that I've been talking about.

April

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Now children behave - no personal attacks here at Laura's

Great Aunt Lizzy

[Guest April63]

Great aunt? Are we related?

April

[Guest My_Genesis]

well. I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner because now I've got a lot of typing to do

First, to answer the original question..and I'm gonna admit this here because it's really the only place I'm comfortable doing so:

1) I naturally tend to relate better to straight people of either sex. I don't know why, I'm assuming it's some kind of brain thing. lol (Neuroscience is my intended major so I've actually read up a bit on studies about the brain vs. sexual orientation as well as gender identity. Interesting stuff ) So I can't really say much about the whole GLB-hating-T thing. lol

2.) That being said, I have my own issues with the GLB community...excluding those who are trans. And here's why -one word: jealousy. (Bear in mind this is just personal obseravtion and opinion.) They are comfortable in their own bodies. Yet they...they're the ones who are becoming increasingly widely accepted by the majority (heteros). They're the ones who (and I've heard this several times during a few months of college..) tend to get "be who you are", "be yourself", "God/Jesus loves everyone", etc. How often does anyone who's trans get that? They're the ones who get "My gay friends are my best friends.", "gay people are awesome", etc. (These are all things I've actually heard people say...just clarifying ) Gay marriage is this giant political debate. I've become very bitter about it...I have this kind of "screw it" attitude. Because of jealousy. Like "they're always complaining about not being able to marry, at least they can have relationships and not have to worry about being traumatized by the body they're in." I guess I feel like they're making a bigger issue out of it than it should be, they're drawing more attention to themselves than they really need, and it becomes a vicious circle of stigmatization. (specific example: more "pride" protests = more attention = more stigma.) Ultimately doesn't that stigmatize us as well?

3.) So then there's me. And sometimes I feel like a close-minded jerk when I think/mention this, but this is truly how I feel. I don't want to be associated with GLB. I really believe that causes more stigma than I might already potentially have to put up with. Why? Simply because I don't identify as GLB. I want to be seen by everyone else as a straight male. That's it. Just like anyone else. Why make it more complicated for myself?

4.) I'm not homophobic. I just feel like they have it easier than we do and are more widely accepted. So yeah like I said, jealousy.

most people just see us as different. That difference is an excuse for jokes, but not hate. And most people realize that, and thus don't truly hate us.

And I don't want to be seen as "different" either, is the point I'm making.

What does "different" even mean anymore? In the modern world, gay, lesbian, bi, black, hispanic, etc. none of those imply "different." (At least they shouldn't, though maybe some people still think that way)

So different nowadays can have really negative implications...

But even worse than that would be a 'lesbian' dating the said trans man, because of the politicization and the sort of pervasive idea that men are evil (not that everyone even realizes it), seeing as the woman is pretty much abandoning the lesbian community, at least in their eyes. And then of course, feminists are evil. Basically....He also says that transguys threatened femme lesbians who were afraid all the butches were going to become men, and butch lesbians who were afraid the femmes were going to like the transguys instead of them.

Hmm, I don't think I'd consider a serious relationship with a lesbian any more than any other straight guy would. I'm just gonna leave it at that.

(Flip it around, how common is it for femmes to be attracted to men of any sexual orientation??)

(So maybe I am a close-minded jerk?) :-/

And I hope I didn't offend anyone with anything I said. It's just been bugging me for awhile and I had to mention it.