Should Female Gender Marker be an unrestricted license to access womens only spaces?

[Guest apostate79]

In other words, for example, if one has the gender marker changed to F but still has male parts between their legs should that person be limited in any way in terms of degree of access to places like a women's locker room?

I'll get right to point, and say, unequivocally NO. Trans women are real women, wether post-op, pre-op or non-op. To suggest that T-women should somehow be limited in any way to such access is discrimination, pure and simple.

So would I be correct in understanding that in saying this, that if the person has an F for gender marker they should be protected fully even to the point of being able to be totally nude with male genitals in womens spaces?

In a word, yes. That person is still female. I don't quite get how you say that this is somehow "exploitive". Are you suggesting that Trans-women, who for whatever reason still have their male genitalia, are somehow "exploiting" women's spaces? And for what reason do you suppose?

The way the laws are changing now, why would someone who changes their marker to an F even have to be a Trans woman? That wasn't even stated in the first post or follow up questions. Perhaps they're 100% perv? That would not be eliminated by the hypothetical question and there seems to have been a close enough recent example of it in the real world.

Maybe being a transwoman wasn't explicitly stated in the original post, but the implication was there. I'm curious to hear what other possible reasons you think someone might have to get their gender marker legally changed, if they weren't actually trans. I'd like to point out that a lot of creepy men also hang around men's spaces. Those people are criminals who should be prevented from acting and punished, nobody is disputing that. However, I think the hypothetical possibility of perverts somehow opening this up for abuse is a false argument, compared to the very real physical danger that transwomen face if forced to use a male washroom. As I said before, I am also against the whole idea of segregation of the sexes to begin with. Such laws are counter-productive and discriminatory.

To me, the whole issue is fairly simple and straightforward, and I believe in erring on the side of freedom.

[Guest carolinagirl]

I personally would never use a locker room [ even if i was post op i still wouldnt ] . 1 reason being even though my gender is female i still wouldnt feel welcome and i wouldnt want anyone to see me naked other then someone i love or trust and 2 because trans phobia and how us trans women are not welcome in allot of spaces for women only. I also know i will never use a public changing room [ I have never used one and im still living as a guy] but i personally think that most trans girls would not want anyone to see the extra part and would not want to use a public changing room.

[Guest Kylie2112]

I see your point but also feel as long as a trans woman does not show whats between her legs it really should not matter at all. Example at a gym many gyms have there restrooms in there changing / shower rooms . this would basically in your option stop a trans woman all access to the restroom in that case. Personally I feel a trans woman should be able to access a womans locker room but she should also at all times keep whats between her legs never seen. Also there should never be any problem with her using a restroom as the only reason there is to do a #1 or #2.. Now a pre op trans woman should never ever be at a bio womans nudist beach..I feel as long as a trans woman uses common sense there should not be any problems...

Agreed with this. I'd rather duck and hide in a corner if I ever needed to change in public.

[Guest kariann330]

Personally i think it all boils down to plain old rational thinking and respect for those around you. Personally weather i was preop or postop there would still be things i wouldn't do. Best way to figure if its ok to do or not, stop and think, Would I do this if my Grandmother was standing behind me and if yes how many people are going to run screaming....if the answer to the second part is well it's possible since i still have a ----------(leaving the thought open for all transgendered peoples) how long would i be in jail, or the hospital after getting attacked? If you have an answer at all for that one then change your plans instantly lol....just tossing my opinion in as someone who is getting to the point of a definite gender fail.

[Guest KimberlyF]

The way the laws are changing now, why would someone who changes their marker to an F even have to be a Trans woman? That wasn't even stated in the first post or follow up questions. Perhaps they're 100% perv? That would not be eliminated by the hypothetical question and there seems to have been a close enough recent example of it in the real world.

Maybe being a transwoman wasn't explicitly stated in the original post, but the implication was there.

This was from the OP just prior to my post:

I found this link to be a pretty decent examination of the issues when someone trans (or not trans who) uses the laws intended to help trans people in ways that most of society would consider inapropriate.

I'm curious to hear what other possible reasons you think someone might have to get their gender marker legally changed, if they weren't actually trans. I'd like to point out that a lot of creepy men also hang around men's spaces. Those people are criminals who should be prevented from acting and punished, nobody is disputing that. However, I think the hypothetical possibility of perverts somehow opening this up for abuse is a false argument, compared to the very real physical danger that transwomen face if forced to use a male washroom. As I said before, I am also against the whole idea of segregation of the sexes to begin with. Such laws are counter-productive and discriminatory.

To me, the whole issue is fairly simple and straightforward, and I believe in erring on the side of freedom.

Freedom for whom? Most would agree that ones freedom to enjoy socking people in the jaw does not supersede another's right to not get socked. At what point does one's comfort supersede anothers?

Is the reason gay men are often found in the women's room because they're also at risk at times of getting beaten in the men's room?

There are people putting holes in walls and putting cameras in to video tape what goes on in locker rooms. Why they'd be there is fairly obvious. I haven't read the whole link above, but I think it mentions someone who has a footprint all over the net of being an exibitionist and enjoying making people feel uncomfortable with nudity. They have recently felt they have the legal backing of the state to do this in the women's room though they could write love sonnets to their male parts. But when the story broke and people started looking into their past, they started to delete a bunch of the creepy stuff on the net. But some of it always sticks around.

[Guest apostate79]

Now you're comparing apples and oranges by comparing access to women's spaces with the "freedom" to go around physically assaulting people. Please try to have a little bit more perspective here. And stop constantly bringing up the dangers posed by perverts and creeps- I am not defending such people so stop trying to imply that I am. The real issue at hand here, is whether or not, and how much so, trans people could or should be classified along with those same perverts. My position is clear on this matter.

As things have progressed it is becomming easier to get gender marker changes without need for surgery such as with US passports, drivers licenses in many states and even birth certificates. So the gender marker now only relates to public presentation, not necessarily physical anatomy of one's genitals.

I notice there is a great deal of emphsis on getting that F gender marker for a number of reasons including it making one "legally female". So I pose the question, if one has a F gender marker is that an unrestricted license to women's only spaces regardless of ones physical anatomy?

In other words, for example, if one has the gender marker changed to F but still has male parts between their legs should that person be limited in any way in terms of degree of access to places like a women's locker room?

I feel there are times where there does need to be some limits placed.

Please show me where in that ORIGINAL POST Drea mentions anything about"non-trans" people. Please help me out, because I don't see it.

[Guest (Lightsider)]

I would like to take a moment and remind every one to follow the rules of Laura's. I can see that this topic can get out of hand fast. We all have opinions and we should continue to respect each other. Thanks

[Guest kelise]

Good point, Drea. At first I thought the question seemed redundant. When I was pre-op, I went to exhaustive lengths to hide any part of me that suggested male, tucking, even taping if the outfit required it, all to hide that bulge. Regardless of the comfort of the other women in the facility, why on earth would I go through all that only to whip it out for all to see in there? Because I assumed fellow MtF would agree with this notion, I thought it would be silly and "stating the obvious" if one were to write that into law. But I suppose, it's bad to assume, and there probably is that one militant person out there who would go against the grain just to prove a point, which as was stated would only hurt our cause. As for perverts, again, as was stated there are already laws in place regarding lewd acts in public facilities, regardless of whether or not you are legally allowed to be there. To drive the point home, consider this scenario. A Cis-gendered female, with all female parts, presenting as female, enters a women's locker room with a hidden camera, illicitly films the othe women in there, and sells the tape on the internet. There is a market for that type of pornography and all pornography is lucrative, so it's not unheard of. Even if they were to go to the strawman extreme of doing genetalia checks at the doors..hell even kayotype testing at the doors would still not prevent this scenario from occuring. It comes down to this: anytime anyone of any gender is naked they run the risk of being preyed upon, either physically or visually, by anyone of any gender, even if they are naked in their own home! There are only a few options here to assuage this: 1. Get comfortable with the idea that someone, somewhere could be getting off looking at you naked (I for one will NEVER get comfortable with that), 2. Never be naked, anywhere at any time, or 3. The obvious and only realistic option, tough laws and crack-downs that specifically target ACTUAL PERPETRATORS of the ACTION of lewd behavior, not laws that sort-of roundabout try and screen out people who are stereotypically assumed to be "potentially" higher risk of being said perpetrators. That's like making a law barring anyone who "looks like" a bank robber from entering a bank, or denying someone a license because they "fit the bill" of someone who runs red lights. Bank robbers and red light runners come in all shapes and sizes....so do perverts. So you outlaw the action, not the stereotype.

[Guest kelise]

And in all that, I forgot to answer the question. I do not believe any trans woman should be barred from having access to women's-only facilities, but YES I can see reason in writing into these "bathroom laws" provisions that prevent said women from exposing any male genetalia to the public while in there. Perhaps not into the "bathroom laws" themselves, but certainly into the already existant anti-lewd conduct laws that bar the harrassment or "lewd observation" (for lack of a better term) of other people's naked bodies.

[Sakura]

in the case of why restrooms and changing rooms are sex segragated. women have need for a certain level of privacy and need to maintain a level of modesty . not to sound crude or anything but i am iffy about taking a #2 in the privacy of my own while my hubby is with in ear shot ( and i know i am not the only woman that faeels that way) let alone while some strange guy i do not even know is sitting right beside me less than a foot away with a flimsy wall separating us. then you have the other issue of a much much more private nature a certain monthly biological funtion women have , women capable of said funtion ( obviously my self not included ) tip toe around it when it is just other women in the rest room. then there is another issue which is safty . 99.6% of registered sex offenders in the united states are male .4% are female that is those convicted of forcable rape . For sexual assult, 98.8% are male 1.2% are female and 37% of these sexual assults take place in public restrooms. and roughly 96% of these sexual assults are aimed toward females of varying age. while not every man is a rapist , giving men such access to women when they are at thier most vulnrable ie partailly naked , would just be stupid , and nearly any woman would tell you that

also the source for those stats were gotten frm Bureau of justic statistics web site.

As for dreas question it is a delicate subject . While restrooms i feel should be a no brainer ,( there should be no reason for you to be flashing your genitals out side of the stall ) things like Locker rooms and showers were there is no available privacy the answer should be NO. i mean come on , While one may be comfortable with ones own body enough to bare thier pre oppedness to others, most male or female are likely not going to be comfortable with it , use some tact and discretion and concideration . in a prefect world there would be no sexual or gender differences but we live in a very imperfect world. and as such it is as much more our responcibility take the higher ground than it is for people to change their views and comfort levels to suit us.

Sakura

[Drea]

Because I assumed fellow MtF would agree with this notion, I thought it would be silly and "stating the obvious" if one were to write that into law. But I suppose, it's bad to assume, and there probably is that one militant person out there who would go against the grain just to prove a point, which as was stated would only hurt our cause.

Probably more than many would like to admit. There are very many trans of very different outlooks in the world.

As for perverts, again, as was stated there are already laws in place regarding lewd acts in public facilities, regardless of whether or not you are legally allowed to be there.

Well, one would expect someone exposing male genitalia in the womens locker room to be considered a lewd act, but if by definition a F gender marker means they are female and so is the anatomy in a legal sense, the person can do that without repercussion.

Please show me where in that ORIGINAL POST Drea mentions anything about"non-trans" people. Please help me out, because I don't see it.

Correct I didn't state just trans. Also in one of my posts I believed I allowed for who isn't trans getting their gender marker changed.

I would note that since trans is self diagnosed and under the umbrella there is a huge degree of diversity, there is no particular regulation of who can get their marker changed under many of these laws provided they can produce a letter from a clinician.

Like Kelsie I would think common sense would rule, but I am aware of too many instances were either common sense was exchanged for a demonstration of privlidge, or pervy activity, or a show for demonstration purposes. But there are the exceptions out there.

It seems to me, a MTF that can not see how women might be bothered in such situations, who doesn't feel compelled to act in a way to avoid discomfort of the other women using the facility, isn't really viewing things from a women's perspective sugggests at the least that they still have some growth and socialization to to learn as a woman.

[Guest LizMarie]

I'm sorry to MtFs who do not choose SRS but male genitalia is still male. Someone can be very feminine and a real and legitimate trans woman but male genitalia creates a difficult situation for women with female genitalia (genetic or trans). To me a trans woman asserting that her rights trump everyone else's rights smacks of poorly considered ethics. The old saying that your right to swing your fist ends where the next person's nose begins seems appropriate here.

This is why I plan to avoid dating as well as all such public places where I might face exactly that issue until after SRS. I don't feel right with those parts down there and I certainly wouldn't want to force other women to have to deal with that too.

[Guest (Lightsider)]

Drea: It seems to me, a MTF that can not see how women might be bothered in such situations, who doesn't feel compelled to act in a way to avoid discomfort of the other women using the facility, isn't really viewing things from a women's perspective sugggests at the least that they still have some growth and socialization to to learn as a woman.

I'm sorry to MtFs who do not choose SRS but male genitalia is still male. Someone can be very feminine and a real and legitimate trans woman but male genitalia creates a difficult situation for women with female genitalia (genetic or trans). To me a trans woman asserting that her rights trump everyone else's rights smacks of poorly considered ethics. The old saying that your right to swing your fist ends where the next person's nose begins seems appropriate here.

This is why I plan to avoid dating as well as all such public places where I might face exactly that issue until after SRS. I don't feel right with those parts down there and I certainly wouldn't want to force other women to have to deal with that too.

I believe you two hit the nail on the head it is very well said. However some will never agree with you because they think they have a right to let it all hang out as long as they have "F" on their license. Never giving full thought to what the ramifications would be for the rest of us for such behavior. Lawmakers are powerful and with a stroke of a pen they can take away what little freedoms we currently do enjoy. If any one doubts their power, just google the NDAA and see and amendments they recently made to it. It does not take much for one of us to screw up and rob the rest of us of our freedoms.

[KathrynJulia]

Are you going to stop every single woman going into a restroom to make sure she doesn't have a penis?

"Excuse me, ma'am, I'm going to have to check between your legs."

"Of officer, only if you must..."

No, but seriously though, can you think of something pragmatically better to use than legal gender? I can't.

I can see TSA checking all the female clientel going into the ladies room. My sister was so grouped going through the airport, that she refuses to fly. After I have GRS, I'm tempted to wear a dress when I fly with a bikini on underneath. And have somebody ready to snap the picture when I pull the dress over my head for the pat down search.

I am not a fan of the TSA. The money we spend on body searching little old ladies, while passing on young men who fit the profile of hijackers and suicide bombers is sad. Kathryn

[Guest Leah1026]

I'm sorry to MtFs who do not choose SRS but male genitalia is still male. Someone can be very feminine and a real and legitimate trans woman but male genitalia creates a difficult situation for women with female genitalia (genetic or trans). To me a trans woman asserting that her rights trump everyone else's rights smacks of poorly considered ethics. The old saying that your right to swing your fist ends where the next person's nose begins seems appropriate here.

This is why I plan to avoid dating as well as all such public places where I might face exactly that issue until after SRS. I don't feel right with those parts down there and I certainly wouldn't want to force other women to have to deal with that too.

I felt the same when I was pre-op.

Other than my own personal discomfort, having an "M" on my license didn't cause me any problems.

I do have one concern though. What about trans guys? At present their surgical options are quite limited, very expensive and few get bottom surgery. And yet, rarely does this topic come up for them (from what I see). Why this incessant focus on transsexual women?

[Drea]

I do have one concern though. What about trans guys? At present their surgical options are quite limited, very expensive and few get bottom surgery. And yet, rarely does this topic come up for them (from what I see). Why this incessant focus on transsexual women?

The topic isns't about surgical options etc. nor in posting was I advocating one should have surgery to get marker change.

I suspect a big reason is rooted in that a vagina exposed in the mens locker room isn't perceived as the same level of physical and/or rape threat by men using the locker room in the way a penis exposed in the women's locker room would be. That trans men would be the ones feeling at risk if others in the mens spaces knew they had some part of female anatomy whereas in womens spaces it is the women who feel threatened by a trans woman who has some male anatomy.

[Guest Kylie2112]

I'm sorry to MtFs who do not choose SRS but male genitalia is still male. Someone can be very feminine and a real and legitimate trans woman but male genitalia creates a difficult situation for women with female genitalia (genetic or trans). To me a trans woman asserting that her rights trump everyone else's rights smacks of poorly considered ethics. The old saying that your right to swing your fist ends where the next person's nose begins seems appropriate here.

This is why I plan to avoid dating as well as all such public places where I might face exactly that issue until after SRS. I don't feel right with those parts down there and I certainly wouldn't want to force other women to have to deal with that too.

I felt the same when I was pre-op.

Other than my own personal discomfort, having an "M" on my license didn't cause me any problems.

I do have one concern though. What about trans guys? At present their surgical options are quite limited, very expensive and few get bottom surgery. And yet, rarely does this topic come up for them (from what I see). Why this incessant focus on transsexual women?

After my incident in the ladies' room a little while ago (that I posted here), I asked a bunch of male friends and coworkers what they would think if a man who still had lady bits was in the men's room. The only response was "I can't see, so why should I care?" I think it also has to do with how poorly some transwomen can pass, while transguys are so rare in the general public's eye (outside of Chaz Bono, how many times do you see a transman in any kind of public light that isn't a novelty [like Thomas Beatty/pregnant man]...most people tend to think transsexual = MTF) that no one really expects them. Also, a woman in the men's room = a really awkward goof and comic fodder while man in the ladies' room = rape waiting to happen (again, general public...I'm far more scared of other women in the ladies' room than they could possibly be of me).

[Guest carolinagirl]

drea im surprized that you are allowed to join this website because i can tell you do not see trans women and women cuz basically what you have been saying is trans women are women but they will never know what it is like to be female and what its like to live as a female.

[MaryEllen]

Drea is allowed to be here as is every other person who identifies as transgender. Drea is giving her point of view as have all the others who have posted here. You may not agree with her as she may not agree with you. Difference of opinions makes for a healthy discussion.

MaryEllen

[Guest carolinagirl]

okay i guess i wont be back on here for awhile

[Guest Bellexia]

This thread reeks of the unstated yet implied opinion that even after surgery we are still less than female. I don't know about everyone else here who feels that way but I feel female. If you feel less well that's your problem. Sorry. I also realize that dangling the bits is unacceptable but if you pass as a woman and you are a woman then you use a towel to hide your bits. We all have to learn this, so out side the exhibitionists who tend to make things worse for all of us, I don't see the problem. They aren't going to know until you drop that bomb. Just be smart, if you can't do that then don't bother. It's not even a matter of safety. Like I said before, laws are there already so if something happens it wasn't because we were suddenly there. It was because of an individual. Again, common sense. If you don't pass things are going to be an issue yes, common sense is going to be a large factor in what you decide to do.

I guess if we are going to let the fears of everyone else dictate what we do then why bother at all?

Also before you post a frothing at the mouth post that I am talking about everyone being where ever than realize this, I still don't understand the need for segregated bathrooms. Many other places do just fine with a regular bathroom. This whole puritan view that women and men must be separated at all times is ridiculous at best. The only thing that makes sense is I don't want to sit on some guys piddle. That's all. However most places keep them very clean.

Oh well, fun thread is fun

[Drea]

what you have been saying is trans women are women but they will never know what it is like to be female and what its like to live as a female.

Not at all and the topic had nothing to do with that. In fact I think, as is demonstrated in the topic, most recognize the potential to cause discomfort to other women and believe discretion is in order.

I do however feel that for the typical MTF there is a learning process. That MTF don't automatically know from some intuition socialization as a woman nor how it is to live as a woman till they have actually been living as a woman for some time and have re-socialized. Something that will happen on it's own if one makes a public gender role change. Unless one simply doesn't take the time to listen and learn.

This thread reeks of the unstated yet implied opinion that even after surgery we are still less than female.

I don't see where that come from.

so out side the exhibitionists who tend to make things worse for all of us, I don't see the problem.

Exactly, so if the exhibitonists make it work for all, what should be done? Should that be protected because of their gender marker (i.e. no limitations) or if some reasonable protection agaist such would be good to have.

To quote a paragraph from that article I linked. Full text is here

Further– and possibly of more immediate concern to women as a class– “gender identity” has been used by certain predatory males to fraudulently break the boundaries of women’s-only space. My primary argument here is not that all trans people are insincere or fraudulent, but that embedding basic fraud-prevention measures directly into “gender identity” statutes is necessary for the protection of women’s right to sex-segregated spaces. Actively addressing the possibility of fraud, rather than stubbornly insisting that it never happens, will both insulate the larger class of trans persons from negative association with charlatans and, more importantly, it will provide some measure of legal assurance to females that no males will be present in sex-segregated space reserved for females. Indeed, there are similar legal restrictions on claiming the right to non-discrimination protections or accommodations on the basis of religion, national origin, and disability.[ii] Fraud prevention is like due diligence, it’s a no-brainer.

That is essentilly why I posed the question. It seems to me, like it says, that it is a "no-brainer". I think the community should get behind the idea of fraud prevention rather than fear it for risk that it somehow infringes their rights.

[Guest LizMarie]

As an aside, Drea's positions are almost always thoughtful and I've never seen her post in a hostile manner. Yes, she makes me think. That's good! I don't agree with everything Drea says, but she makes me think and I learn from that, just as I have from so many others.

Please do not read into her words anything that is not explicitly there. I've learned that Drea is very careful and exact with her postings and wordings. Read into them only exactly what she wrote!

[Sakura]

I agree with drea full heartedly. while i feel every one here knows exactly what it is like to feel gender dysphoria. but knowing what it is like to be treated , interacted with and viewed as a woman by ones peers , along with the social pressures interactions expectiation and bondaries, that comes from a life time of being naturally raised and socialized as a woman , with out actually living as a woman is a stretch. though that is not to say that if one is willing to really learn and truely resocialize them selves as female, that they can't eventualy come to know what it is like to identify socially an interperonally as a woman.

Like the reason most transsexuals can't seem to wrap thier head around why women are fear full of having men or male bodied individuals in these spaces. then one just does not understand what it is like to be a woman and why it is so troubling and uncomfortable to us. though i do see that most that posted to this thread, understand the reason to use discretion as to not cause un due discomfort to be refreshing.

Sakura

[Kyla666]

I think what's funny is that people think there is some kind of magic stopping others from going into the opposite bathroom. If I am seen as a wonmen ill go to The women's restroom. No gender marker or thing between my legs is going to stop me.

And I love when people try justifying not letting MTF in the woman's restroom under the fear of rape. .. my head hurts from the stupidity of human kind.