Should Female Gender Marker be an unrestricted license to access womens only spaces?

[Guest (Lightsider)]

Kyla in some states going to the other bathroom with out a letter from your therapist or marker on your ID can lead to arrest. Not a good thing.

[Guest KimberlyF]

Some of us think there are more important things than peeing in the big girl potty, and if you want to socialize with other women and expect them to respect you, then you should consider their feelings and treat them with respect.

If you feel that you are the center of the known universe or somehow superior to everyone, then this really won't apply.

Most on this topic have taken the reasonable position that you do not make others uncomfortable in the bathroom or shower or whatever and some think maybe laws to prevent fraud would also be reasonable. If this fraud never happens and it makes people feel better, then where is the harm? If it does happen and there is no law, there can be a huge harm to te community.

When do you see a headline "Transsexual uses bathroom-nothing happens."

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Good question Drea,

But we also must consider different countries and cultures regarding gender and what is considered taboo.

For example, I have been to the Orient many times and one thing that has struck me is the ubiquitos number of gender neutral bathrooms that exist there.

In the West, gender segregation is very clear as far as things as simple as bathrooms. In other countries, those lines are absent.

As far as the never knowing what it is truly like to be the other gender, I submit that many parts of that assertion is true.

Without being physically born and socially raised as a certain gender no one would ever really know. This is analogous to being born and raised in one culture and then being placed in another. One would never have the depth of knowledge of the new culture as those born in it.

With that said, I would suggest that one knows the other gender at the time one lives as the other gender at that time. Not the history of that gender, but the realities of being that gender at that time and age when transitioned.

[Guest Bellexia]

As an aside, Drea's positions are almost always thoughtful and I've never seen her post in a hostile manner. Yes, she makes me think. That's good! I don't agree with everything Drea says, but she makes me think and I learn from that, just as I have from so many others.

Please do not read into her words anything that is not explicitly there. I've learned that Drea is very careful and exact with her postings and wordings. Read into them only exactly what she wrote!

Actually it wasn't so much drea's post that set me off as much as it was yours. And to the point, it's that without my surgery I cannot be considered female by your god tier standards.

"I'm sorry to MtFs who do not choose SRS but male genitalia is still male. Someone can be very feminine and a real and legitimate trans woman but male genitalia creates a difficult situation for women with female genitalia (genetic or trans). To me a trans woman asserting that her rights trump everyone else's rights smacks of poorly considered ethics."

So basically even though I pass nearly 100% of the time I shouldn't be able to use the bathroom? Nah, not going to the mens room. I've tried, the stares in there are god awful. I should also let the fears of others dictate what I am doing? Maybe if you guys want to do that, sure whatever but I go there to piddle. Nothing else. I don't see why I can't do that? So fear of repercussions is now guiding us in our actions, why bother to even transition if you all are going to let the fear of others rule you?

[Guest Bellexia]

And yes upon reading this thread more I don't see anyone stating that. So I am truly sorry on that lame accusation on my part. :c

[Guest (Lightsider)]

Fractured: So basically even though I pass nearly 100% of the time I shouldn't be able to use the bathroom? Nah, not going to the mens room. I've tried, the stares in there are god awful. I should also let the fears of others dictate what I am doing? Maybe if you guys want to do that, sure whatever but I go there to piddle. Nothing else. I don't see why I can't do that? So fear of repercussions is now guiding us in our actions, why bother to even transition if you all are going to let the fear of others rule you?

You know...if a person is not going into the restroom and flashing their junk all over the place I do not see the big deal here. It is like splitting hairs. I present as female with out flaw. I will say it...I do. I do not have any concern when using the women's bathroom even though I am still pre-op. Now...if I decided to pull it out in front of some other woman there would be a justification to have me thrown out. In all my years living as me I have never run into a situation where flashing my junk has ever been an issue. This whole argument is just silly to me.

And for the record, I am not even offended by what Liz Marie has said and in fact I agree with her. It is still male genitalia and it is a problem for genetic women and we need to be sensitive to that fact or the repercussions can result in a HUGE step back ward for our cause.

Added note: I should also add....I have a revised Birth Certificate that I am female. I also have signed order from a judge that my sex is female as my ID reflects this. I am also post op-ochiectomy. And I still agree that if I flashed my junk I should get in trouble for such a trespass.

[Guest Bellexia]

That's true. Very true. I guess I should reflect on this I dunno. Oh well. Sorry if I was a bit inflammatory.

[Guest KimberlyF]

This topic is not about someone with a penis using the woman's bathroom.

The topic from the beginning has been should Trans women with an F marker on their ID have the freedom to do whatever they want in a woman's bathroom up to and including flashing their peni if they have one, or would laws to prevent such actions be appropriate given the world we live in.

So nobody has stated that I can tell that a non-op TG who wants to tinkle in a stall or touch up her make-up should have to march over to the men's room.

[Carolyn Marie]

The topic from the beginning has been should Trans women with an F marker on their ID have the freedom to do whatever they want in a woman's bathroom up to and including flashing their peni if they have one, or would laws to prevent such actions be appropriate given the world we live in.

Actually, the OP talked about "women's only spaces" and "locker rooms." Bathrooms were not mentioned at all, and it would seem me, an entirely separate matter.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest (Lightsider)]

I don't see it as a separate matter at all. I have a gym membership with locker room access. For me to go in there and be butt naked in full view of other female patrons would be a dis-service to all of us even though I am LEGALLY by court order female. I could sit here and say hey, I am female legally by definition and do what ever I want but it does not make it right or moral. Any one who does is just being irresponsible in my ever so humble opinion. Now if some one looks between the stall cracks and sees something then makes a stink about it I will be on a moral high ground and I would fight it. But that is not likely to ever happen because that is not what women do in "Womens spaces". One of the things I would ask is..."Why were you peeking through the stall crack you PERVERT!" LOL

[Guest Leah1026]

The topic from the beginning has been should Trans women with an F marker on their ID have the freedom to do whatever they want in a woman's bathroom up to and including flashing their peni if they have one, or would laws to prevent such actions be appropriate given the world we live in.

Actually, the OP talked about "women's only spaces" and "locker rooms." Bathrooms were not mentioned at all, and it would seem me, an entirely separate matter.

Carolyn Marie

Bingo

[Guest LizMarie]

Fractured, I specifically stated that someone can have male genitalia yet still be a very feminine and very real transgender woman. That's not the issue.

What is the issue is what Colleen Francis did - flashing her penis at grade school age girls in the locker room at a public facility. And it wasn't accidentally either. She did so deliberately, with legs spread completely wide for everyone to see, and then bragged about it afterwards.

That, to me, was completely uncalled for yet the way laws are getting written, they could not arrest her or charge her in any way. Colleen Francis' rights as a human being end where the next person's rights begin, and for her to force that situation on underage school children was the height of insensitivity.

Note that Colleen Francis is just an example for the broader question that was asked. And I stand by my answer, I do not believe that any pre-op or non-op transgender woman should be given carte blanche to "flash her junk" in front of other women. Sorry, I don't buy it and I'm in that same boat for a while myself.

[Guest KimberlyF]

The topic from the beginning has been should Trans women with an F marker on their ID have the freedom to do whatever they want in a woman's bathroom up to and including flashing their peni if they have one, or would laws to prevent such actions be appropriate given the world we live in.

Actually, the OP talked about "women's only spaces" and "locker rooms." Bathrooms were not mentioned at all, and it would seem me, an entirely separate matter.

Carolyn Marie

In Chicago women's bathrooms are women's only spaces?

But OK, I guess one could state if they are pro or con flashing in locker rooms and also pro or con flashing in bathrooms?

Work with me here people. I have a kid who was up most of the night kicking me in the kidney.

[Guest (Lightsider)]

I just looked up the Colleen Francis incident. TOTALLY irresponsible and it could have a very negative impact on all of us. Thank you Colleen! (I would say a lot more severe things about this person but it would break all kinds of LP rules and ME would put me in the dog house.) Colleen should be jailed if what is reported about the incident is accurate.

[Guest Kylie2112]

I just looked up the Colleen Francis incident. TOTALLY irresponsible and it could have a very negative impact on all of us. Thank you Colleen! (I would say a lot more severe things about this person but it would break all kinds of LP rules and ME would put me in the dog house.) Colleen should be jailed if what is reported about the incident is accurate.

Agreed. Yup, I'd feel a lot safer in the women's locker room, but I'm going to hide in the corner and change under a towel.

[Drea]

... up to and including flashing their peni if they have ....

Peni? Like more than one...oh my gosh...

[Carolyn Marie]

Peni? Like more than one...oh my gosh...

*Giggle* The imagination of some people.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest apostate79]

I'm sorry to MtFs who do not choose SRS but male genitalia is still male. Someone can be very feminine and a real and legitimate trans woman but male genitalia creates a difficult situation for women with female genitalia (genetic or trans). To me a trans woman asserting that her rights trump everyone else's rights smacks of poorly considered ethics. The old saying that your right to swing your fist ends where the next person's nose begins seems appropriate here.

This is why I plan to avoid dating as well as all such public places where I might face exactly that issue until after SRS. I don't feel right with those parts down there and I certainly wouldn't want to force other women to have to deal with that too.

I felt the same when I was pre-op.

Other than my own personal discomfort, having an "M" on my license didn't cause me any problems.

I do have one concern though. What about trans guys? At present their surgical options are quite limited, very expensive and few get bottom surgery. And yet, rarely does this topic come up for them (from what I see). Why this incessant focus on transsexual women?

Also, a woman in the men's room = a really awkward goof and comic fodder while man in the ladies' room = rape waiting to happen (again, general public...I'm far more scared of other women in the ladies' room than they could possibly be of me).

What you think of as "awkward comic fodder" can in reality be a dangerous situation, a transwoman in a men's room may actually be opening herself up to violent physical assault. I'm not sure if you are aware, but there are a lot of people out there who still harbour an irrational hatred towards GLBT people, especially transwomen. I don't care how pretty or passing you might look, if you are seen in a men's toilet or locker room YOU WILL BE READ. How could you in good conscience force anyone into such a situation, let alone make light of it?

I've heard a common complaint from some older transwomen about how so many transssexuals never stick together and seem afraid to stand up for each-other, that there really is not enough unity in the community, I'm starting to get understand what they were talking about. To address one of the questions that have been thrown at me, YES if it comes down to my own personal safety MY RIGHTS WILL ALWAYS COME FIRST.

[Guest Kylie2112]

I'm sorry to MtFs who do not choose SRS but male genitalia is still male. Someone can be very feminine and a real and legitimate trans woman but male genitalia creates a difficult situation for women with female genitalia (genetic or trans). To me a trans woman asserting that her rights trump everyone else's rights smacks of poorly considered ethics. The old saying that your right to swing your fist ends where the next person's nose begins seems appropriate here.

This is why I plan to avoid dating as well as all such public places where I might face exactly that issue until after SRS. I don't feel right with those parts down there and I certainly wouldn't want to force other women to have to deal with that too.

I felt the same when I was pre-op.

Other than my own personal discomfort, having an "M" on my license didn't cause me any problems.

I do have one concern though. What about trans guys? At present their surgical options are quite limited, very expensive and few get bottom surgery. And yet, rarely does this topic come up for them (from what I see). Why this incessant focus on transsexual women?

Also, a woman in the men's room = a really awkward goof and comic fodder while man in the ladies' room = rape waiting to happen (again, general public...I'm far more scared of other women in the ladies' room than they could possibly be of me).

What you think of as "awkward comic fodder" can in reality be a dangerous situation, a transwoman in a men's room may actually be opening herself up to violent physical assault. I'm not sure if you are aware, but there are a lot of people out there who still harbour an irrational hatred towards GLBT people, especially transwomen. I don't care how pretty or passing you might look, if you are seen in a men's toilet or locker room YOU WILL BE READ. How could you in good conscience force anyone into such a situation, let alone make light of it?

I've heard a common complaint from some older transwomen about how so many transssexuals never stick together and seem afraid to stand up for each-other, that there really is not enough unity in the community, I'm starting to get understand what they were talking about. To address one of the questions that have been thrown at me, YES if it comes down to my own personal safety MY RIGHTS WILL ALWAYS COME FIRST.

I meant genetic woman in that statement. If a woman accidentally walks into a men's room, it's not chaos and panic (and I was also referring to public perception and our rights, since that's more or less the focus here). Personally, I haven't had any issues in rest rooms (granted, I've never been to one where I'm not among friends or in a fairly safe place). That said, I would assume just not go to the gym/pool than to have to maybe be naked for a nanosecond in the presence of other women. Also, I see no problem for a trans person to go in their self-identified gender's "gender-only" places, as long as they respect that others may not respect certain...things...about them.

[Drea]

I don't care how pretty or passing you might look, if you are seen in a men's toilet or locker room YOU WILL BE READ. How could you in good conscience force anyone into such a situation, let alone make light of it?

I've heard a common complaint from some older transwomen about how so many transssexuals never stick together and seem afraid to stand up for each-other, that there really is not enough unity in the community, I'm starting to get understand what they were talking about. To address one of the questions that have been thrown at me, YES if it comes down to my own personal safety MY RIGHTS WILL ALWAYS COME FIRST.

Absolutely nothing within the topic of discussion was advocating trans women use the mens room.

The only point of discussion is if a F gender marker is unrestricted license to access womens only spaces. By unrestricted I didn't mean entry or not, but limits in terms of actions within those spaces. Specifally would it be reasonable to limit exposure of male anatomy openly within such space (case in point Colleen Francis). Would limitations to prevent that sort of behavior be welcome or not. To provide protection to women against non-trans or even a trans woman that might exploit laws intended to help trans.

In my opinion, and I said it already, I think this makes sense and would benefit the community to addressing one avenue of fear in extending trans protections.

[Guest CristyValeur]

I think common sense should prevail here. No, I do not think a pre-op trans woman should walk around in an all GG environment, flagrantly displaying her male genitalia. Even though there may be an F marker on a license, that's not what will be seen. For a pre-op to insist on that right would only serve to drive us further back to the dark ages of non acceptance.

My opinion and mine alone.

MaryEllen

I think its more than this. The whole idea is that our bodies do not match our minds and therefore it is our bodies that are the problem. Flagrantly displaying that portion of ones self defeats the purpose of presenting yourself as female in the first place. Having the "F" on your license means nothing if you are presenting yourself to be male and lets face it, walking around nude with a penis hanging down is exactly that, presenting yourself as a male to the general population in the area. IE the locker room, bathroom etc...

Cristy

[Guest (Lightsider)]

I think common sense should prevail here. No, I do not think a pre-op trans woman should walk around in an all GG environment, flagrantly displaying her male genitalia. Even though there may be an F marker on a license, that's not what will be seen. For a pre-op to insist on that right would only serve to drive us further back to the dark ages of non acceptance.

My opinion and mine alone.

MaryEllen

I think its more than this. The whole idea is that our bodies do not match our minds and therefore it is our bodies that are the problem. Flagrantly displaying that portion of ones self defeats the purpose of presenting yourself as female in the first place. Having the "F" on your license means nothing if you are presenting yourself to be male and lets face it, walking around nude with a penis hanging down is exactly that, presenting yourself as a male to the general population in the area. IE the locker room, bathroom etc...

Cristy

bingo. I think that there will always be the militants in a group who think they are helping the cause by being "IN YOUR FACE." When in reality they are actually harming every one else. They are giving our enemies ammunition that can be used to restrict us. And when children are in question as was the case in the Colleen Francis deal the law will as it should come down on the side of the protection of the child. I would not be surprised if some senator is already working on a bill to jail the Colleen Francis's and label them as child molestors. Which could cast a broad net and catch some of us, all because this selfish person wanted to express her freedom. There are some on the sex offender registries who did simple stupid things like peeing in public while drunk and that is what happens with many laws...they tend to go over board.

So here is a question for you all. Since I have a judges order stating that my sex is female yet I still have a penis does that give me the right to flash myself in womens places? Think about it. I have a legal document beyond my license and Birth Certificate stating I am female. Does that give me the right to (pardon the pun...it is not intended) shove my anatomy in peoples faces?

I think if I did that it would be a slap in the trans communities faces as well as make the judge who signed it look bad. It would be a selfish move on my part because of this mentality of..."MY RIGHTS COME FIRST" attitude. There are other ways to help the community. By me being a good example, the judge is likely to help another trans person down the road. It might not be some HUGE ripple in the pond of life but it is at it's least a small ripple that will help others. I am sure if Colleen walked into his court room he would blanch and turn her away. I sure would!

And if you doubt I have that document/decree, just let me know and I will make it available to any one who asks. Albeit, it is edited to protect my identity and the judges identity. The individuals in the community need to think about the community as a whole and if their actions will hurt others and not hide behind this warped idea of personal freedom.

Nicole

EDIT: I am providing a link to my Decree. This is so you know I am not playing the bull crap card. http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y484/Dakotaxile/decree-1.jpg

[Guest noelleis]

I'd say that common sense laws would at least be of some use in this case. Ms. Francis's actions were irresponsible and conducted with a blatant disregard for her peers and surroundings (from what I've read). I know that I would simply change under a large shirt, or perhaps in a bathroom.

However, yes, I think that the marker should grant access to those locations. Especially since the men's lavatory rarely has soap.

[Guest Daiyu Hurst]

I found this link to be a pretty decent examination of the issues when someone trans (or not trans who) uses the laws intended to help trans people in ways that most of society would consider inapropriate.

http://sexnotgender....aud-prevention/

I think the limitations suggested in the above article were pretty reasonable.

As soon as I saw Elizabeth Hungerford's name, I stopped reading.

[Guest Kelly-087]

Note that Colleen Francis is just an example for the broader question that was asked. And I stand by my answer, I do not believe that any pre-op or non-op transgender woman should be given carte blanche to "flash her junk" in front of other women. Sorry, I don't buy it and I'm in that same boat for a while myself.

I don't think any man, or woman regardless of transgender or operation status should be doing what Colleen did.

I would have told her off myself. It just makes things much worse for us!