Should Female Gender Marker be an unrestricted license to access womens only spaces?

[Guest (Lightsider)]

Note that Colleen Francis is just an example for the broader question that was asked. And I stand by my answer, I do not believe that any pre-op or non-op transgender woman should be given carte blanche to "flash her junk" in front of other women. Sorry, I don't buy it and I'm in that same boat for a while myself.

I don't think any man, or woman regardless of transgender or operation status should be doing what Colleen did.

I would have told her off myself. It just makes things much worse for us!

I have been reading up on Colleen and she has a thing about being an exhibitionist. It is this sort of behavior that hurts us all and can have a backlash that put us back a decade or more. It does nothing to move the whole agenda forward. Coleen is a selfcentered person and should be prosecuted and put on sex offender lists and should spend some time behind bars.

An example of a backlash on this would be a revised law retroactively forcing gender markers go back to birth gender if there has been no SRS.

[Guest apostate79]

I found this link to be a pretty decent examination of the issues when someone trans (or not trans who) uses the laws intended to help trans people in ways that most of society would consider inapropriate.

http://sexnotgender....aud-prevention/

I think the limitations suggested in the above article were pretty reasonable.

As soon as I saw Elizabeth Hungerford's name, I stopped reading.

? Who is Elizabeth Hungerford, and what is your issue with her...

[Guest (Lightsider)]

Cathy Brennan & Elizabeth Hungerford are two women who are fighting to have trans-women barred from (women's) bathrooms and public areas like locker rooms. And people like Colleen Francis are not helping matters by going in a presenting male genitalia in a locker rooms shared by under age girls. If these were other women who were over 18 that she exposed herself too there might be room for debate but these were children.

In fact this situation with Colleen Francis has gotten under my skin enough that I am thinking about writing to my legislators in Olympia. I am of the strong opinion that where children are concerned and some individual like Colleen are concerned the child's rights trumps all even if it hurts my freedom. Colleen is not a pioneer. Colleen is a liability to the community. Because of Colleen there is already a provision called the "Colleen Francis Clause" that has been written into a bill for Helena Montana Non-Discrimination statute. That is going to ripple through other communities and it is going to cast a broad net that will injure innocent, decent people.

[Drea]

Cathy Brennan & Elizabeth Hungerford are two women who are fighting to have trans-women barred from bathrooms and public areas like locker rooms.

Well I haven't seen what constitutes their attempts to have trans women barred.

The detetails of the article are entirely reasonable and only would be relevent in cases of miscounduct or fraudulant use of the laws that would allow a gender marker changed.

Now the way I seen the trans community will portray negativly anyone who questions community desires and asks for reasonable limits such as those that would protect from the links of Colleen Francis, it wouldn't surprise me that a resonable position like the article I referenced would be portrayed as an attempt to have trans women barred. Even within this discussion some have jumpted to that same conclusion.

What I am curious about is if the majority of the trans community would support such reasonable protections. To date the activists have been pushing for laws that would protect the likes of Colleen Francis.

[Guest (Lightsider)]

Cathy Brennan & Elizabeth Hungerford are two women who are fighting to have trans-women barred from bathrooms and public areas like locker rooms.

Well I haven't seen what constitutes their attempts to have trans women barred.

The detetails of the article are entirely reasonable and only would be relevent in cases of miscounduct or fraudulant use of the laws that would allow a gender marker changed.

Now the way I seen the trans community will portray negativly anyone who questions community desires and asks for reasonable limits such as those that would protect from the links of Colleen Francis, it wouldn't surprise me that a resonable position like the article I referenced would be portrayed as an attempt to have trans women barred. Even within this discussion some have jumpted to that same conclusion.

What I am curious about is if the majority of the trans community would support such reasonable protections. To date the activists have been pushing for laws that would protect the likes of Colleen Francis.

I for one will not support any laws extending protections to the likes of Colleen Francis and would soon see her hanged by her toes. I don't care if that puts me on the outs with the community because children were the victims here. As far the "barring" it was in a document I was reading. I am not feeling too well at the moment but when I do find it again I will post the link.

[Carolyn Marie]

I for one will not support any laws extending protections to the likes of Colleen Francis and would soon see her hanged by her toes. I don't care if that puts me on the outs with the community because children were the victims here.

Agreed.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest NoxNocturnus]

Kinda 50-50 on this subject. I just know personally, I don't want people seeing what is between my legs, as I don't want to see it or even know it's there (anyone got a mind-changing substance that will remove knowledge of having a penis permanently for me) so in ANY changing space, I tend to stay at least partially covered.

JMHO

~nnn

[Paula ult]

As things have progressed it is becomming easier to get gender marker changes without need for surgery such as with US passports, drivers licenses in many states and even birth certificates. So the gender marker now only relates to public presentation, not necessarily physical anatomy of one's genitals.

I notice there is a great deal of emphsis on getting that F gender marker for a number of reasons including it making one "legally female". So I pose the question, if one has a F gender marker is that an unrestricted license to women's only spaces regardless of ones physical anatomy?

In other words, for example, if one has the gender marker changed to F but still has male parts between their legs should that person be limited in any way in terms of degree of access to places like a women's locker room?

I feel there are times where there does need to be some limits placed.

I am going to assume Drea is referring to those that are transsexual or intersex and are transitioning, and not the rest of the groups under the transgender umbrella who are not going to transition.

I do not think there is a correct answer to Drea's question, I think the answer to this question is twofold, first, no there should be no limitations as long as the person presents well, what i mean by this is the look, act and talk in a feminine way and act in a discrete way which will not cause other women in the locker room distress, second, yes there should be limitations if the person i easily read or is trying to make a statement that regardless on how they look, act, talk etc they should be accepted as female and do not care how much distress to other women they cause.

I belonged to the YMCA long before i started to transition, there was another trans person who would come, workout then leave shower and change at home, i was on hormones about a year and i was past the point of no return, using the men's locker any more room was out of the question and i thought i did not present well enough to use the women's locker room, a few months later i went full time, as luck would have it a new gym opened closer to my home and was cheaper, so i joined it, the only person who knew my status because my name and documentation was not changed yet was the manager who signed me up, i did what that other trans person did and worked out, went home and showered, i did not want to cause other women distress as well as i did not want to be outed, now that i have had my GCS i don't worry about being seen nude in the women's locker room.

Paula

[Guest KimberlyF]

I do not think there is a correct answer to Drea's question, I think the answer to this question is twofold, first, no there should be no limitations as long as the person presents well, what i mean by this is the look, act and talk in a feminine way and act in a discrete way which will not cause other women in the locker room distress, second, yes there should be limitations if the person i easily read or is trying to make a statement that regardless on how they look, act, talk etc they should be accepted as female and do not care how much distress to other women they cause.

Are you saying passing is the key? If so, hypothetically, if a post-op doesn't look talk and act in a feminine way, should they use the men's room? Or based on your example, after surgery it doesn't matter?

And since you assume she's also talking about intersexed, where should they go? Where they look talk and act the most socially gender normal?

[Guest SJH]

I can't see there being any hope of me using a gym (not the type in the first place) and as for swimming short of having a pool to myself (highly unlikely( or having a transgender only swim event) which was talked about in our area believe it or not then simply put I would be uncomfortable swimming post op. Unless any TG only swim events come to fruition the closest I get is the bath in the morning. HeyHo better then nothing I suppose. as for bathrooms/toilets then TS women should be allowed to use them and we are protected by law here in the UK. Female loo's are stall only so no chance of actually seeing anything.

[Drea]

I am going to assume Drea is referring to those that are transsexual or intersex and are transitioning, and not the rest of the groups under the transgender umbrella who are not going to transition.

The question posed is not limited to just specific trans categories. It is about a F on identification being an unrestricted license to access womens only spaces independant as to how that F got there, because legally, the how doesn't necessarily make a difference. Nothing prevents someone who fits into any category under the umbrella, or who isn't even trans from getting it altered. I am confident that someone motivated can get the needed letter.

no there should be no limitations as long as the person presents well, what i mean by this is the look, act and talk in a feminine way and act in a discrete way which will not cause other women in the locker room distress, second, yes there should be limitations if the person i easily read or is trying to make a statement that regardless on how they look, act, talk etc they should be accepted as female and do not care how much distress to other women they cause.

As I read this, according to the original question, since one can't restrict based upon how one appears that there should be some degree of limitations/conformance to a standard.

...if a post-op doesn't look talk and act in a feminine way, should they use the men's room? Or based on your example, after surgery it doesn't matter?

I think I mentioned if someone was post-op but didn't make public role change or in every way appeared and acted male, it probably would be a problem in a ladies room or womens locker room, but that sort of thing is quite apart from what I was thinking with the question. If the person had an F on their ID this is an area which could cause discomfort for the women using such facilities but certainly isn't as severe as someone exposing male parts.

[Guest LizMarie]

Here is the problem - our culture has embraced binary gender thinking!

That is the problem in a nutshell. Everything else stems from that. In some parts of the world, locker rooms and rest rooms are gender neutral so this issue doesn't arise, at least in the same manner.

Now for better or worse, this is how our culture operates. And while some of us want to change that culture, all of us want to be accepted by our culture (or nearly all of us!). Let's throw away the notion of "passing" for now.

Here's the situation - we have a female space, be it locker room or whatever.

Into that space comes someone who disrobes. Let's ignore what that person thinks of themselves as since maybe they haven't spoken a word so far, ok?

That person, regardless of how the rest of their body looks, is going to have distinctive genitalia. It's going to be male or female. If it's female, even if the person is large and masculine looking, how do you think other females will react? I'm pretty sure they would largely accept that person as female. There might be some comments but there would not be a question about that person "invading" a female only space as she has the right "equipment".

Remember, no words have been spoken so far.

Now let's imagine a second person entering that space, someone very beautiful and feminine, but when this person disrobes, their genitalia is male. What do you imagine as the reaction of other females in that space? Yes, I'm pretty sure they're going to think "male" right off the bat. Females are naturally wary of males in our culture because males dominate and males have exploited females sexually for centuries. It's not an accident that rape became a major campaign issue during this last election cycle. So the presence of a penis in a female space is probably going to immediately set alarm bells ringing, at least in my opinion.

The above (admittedly assumed) reactions are exactly why I will not place myself in those situations until I am post-op. I try to be very sensitive to female issues and I admit I am constantly learning but I personally feel it is wrong for me to place that sort of social pressure on other females. This goes back to what I said before - my rights end where your rights begin (and vice-versa).

[Guest Bellexia]

Fractured, I specifically stated that someone can have male genitalia yet still be a very feminine and very real transgender woman. That's not the issue.

What is the issue is what Colleen Francis did - flashing her penis at grade school age girls in the locker room at a public facility. And it wasn't accidentally either. She did so deliberately, with legs spread completely wide for everyone to see, and then bragged about it afterwards.

I have tried to avoid this topic however the influx of radical comments and mention of hanging her has me worried about this community. I am also unsure what your source is on the underlined text. I've looked for it and been unable to find it.

[Guest Bellexia]

looks like I didn't finish my post. The underlined bit was about her bragging and I have googled this topic and been unable to locate it... Also the avoid part should have read "I have been trying to avoid posting again here." Still...

[Guest LizMarie]

The following [] (Links deleted because they do not fall within terms and conditions). That report shows that she sat there in the sauna with her legs spread open deliberately and without regards to others within the facility. I've also seen no statement from her apologizing for her impact on the younger girls in the facility or even an attempt to make accommodations to others. Additionally, Colleen is not on T-blockers and is only on low dose estrogen, admits liking male genitalia, and is "turned on" by curvy girls 18-60. (Note: The hormone, turned on and male genitalia comments were on his OK Cupid page which has since apparently been made private or removed.) So what was Colleen doing in there like that at that specific time? I don't know but it certainly leaves me questioning the entire incident, and further, it ends up being a black eye for the rest of the MtF trans community.

Yes, people need to be taught to be more tolerant but at the same time, we're not there yet and what happened in this incident bothers me. It may not bother you. That's ok, and it's your right to feel however you feel, but Colleen's need to expose herself in this situation is certainly problematic in my opinion. You are certainly free to disagree with me about that though.

[Guest Bellexia]

I don't disagree however I do think a lot of the anger about the children being there is misplaced. Be mad at colleen, be mad at yourselves (parents of these kids not my fellow LP'ers) but most of all do not take it out on us. I think she is an idiot and if you say it was like that well maybe she is a deviant of the pedophile kind and needs to be questioned in those regards... However this was a college and while the kids were welcome the parents had to realize that they might see something at some point. Maybe not in the sense of this kind of flashing pervert ways but in a way they make it seem as if no one should ever see anything in a locker room. I say that because instead of beating themselves up they have decided to go after us and our rights. Always seems to be the way it goes yes, so the black eye nah I won't lie there, this is probably worse. Because in a time when people are starting to realize we exist she pulls this crap. However I am of the firm believer of giving blame where blame is due.

In this thread I have see people say they would not go in there and others like me saying they would but would use a towel. It's all very personal but at the same time we have to realize common sense plays a larger role than anything else. And no I don't think she should be strung up by her toes as another said. although... nah. Common sense. Some have it, some don't and if any one is reading these forums *cough cough Colleen* thanks, thanks a whole lot for this. You should be really proud...*golf clap*

I also realize my opinion might have changed on this, in the time i spent avoiding this thread I had time to think on it. Yeah... anyway.

[Guest (Lightsider)]

The following [] (Links deleted because they do not fall within terms and conditions). That report shows that she sat there in the sauna with her legs spread open deliberately and without regards to others within the facility. I've also seen no statement from her apologizing for her impact on the younger girls in the facility or even an attempt to make accommodations to others. Additionally, Colleen is not on T-blockers and is only on low dose estrogen, admits liking male genitalia, and is "turned on" by curvy girls 18-60. (Note: The hormone, turned on and male genitalia comments were on his OK Cupid page which has since apparently been made private or removed.) So what was Colleen doing in there like that at that specific time? I don't know but it certainly leaves me questioning the entire incident, and further, it ends up being a black eye for the rest of the MtF trans community.

Yes, people need to be taught to be more tolerant but at the same time, we're not there yet and what happened in this incident bothers me. It may not bother you. That's ok, and it's your right to feel however you feel, but Colleen's need to expose herself in this situation is certainly problematic in my opinion. You are certainly free to disagree with me about that though.

This is exactly my concern about Colleen and Colleen's impact on our community. I really have nothing nice to say about this person. This person is a sexual predator and any one who is seeking to protect this persons rights needs to really take a close look at what they are standing for. She is unapologetic and does not care if children were exposed to this. As soon as a child is involved in something like this, freedoms go right out the door and tolerance is flushed down the toilet. If this had been a "Normal" male, that person would now be serving time and a registered sex offender. Would we praise a normal male acting this way?

Colleen is using us as a shield. That is the bottom line folks. And we are going to pay for it.

.

[Guest KimberlyF]

Colleen has already been used in laws being presented in just a few months.

http://m.billingsgazette.com/mobile-touch-2/?disableTNStatsTracker=1&asset=36a1b84e-3890-5c50-aebe-e7376e639dad#36a1b84e-3890-5c50-aebe-e7376e639dad

[Guest (Lightsider)]

Colleen has already been used in laws being presented in just a few months.

http://m.billingsgaz...be-e7376e639dad

Yup and it is just going to get worse because of that %$^$%*$*##@@!!!

[Guest kelise]

I think we're all in agreement that Colleen is a miscreant, but the question now is, how do we make it known to the general public that we as a community do not support her or her behaivior and she does not represent us?

[Guest (Lightsider)]

I think we're all in agreement that Colleen is a miscreant, but the question now is, how do we make it known to the general public that we as a community do not support her or her behaivior and she does not represent us?

I think there are several ways. Petition? I for one will be writing my representatives about this. And we as a community need to do is unite against Colleen or we are all in a serious heap of trouble. I don't think every one is agreement Kelise. I think a lot of us are scared to stand up because it might be seen as an attack on the community by not siding with Colleen. The community needs to send Colleen a clear message that what Colleen did was wrong and not acceptable.

[Carolyn Marie]

I'll give some thought to having a discussion about this at the WeHo TG Advisory Board. But, we usually don't delve into individual misbehavior. This might be worthy of an exception, though.

Carolyn Marie

[Drea]

I think we're all in agreement that Colleen is a miscreant, but the question now is, how do we make it known to the general public that we as a community do not support her or her behaivior and she does not represent us?

Very easy. As a community we support appropriate limitations and fraud prevention measures buint into laws allowing gender marker changes and similar laws. Measures that seem very reasonable as stated in the link.

[Kyla666]

From all the videos and text on the matter of Colleen, Never did i see anyone state she flashed her (Junk) at anyone.

My opinion would be that some teen girls/Or Women are Hating on this poor woman and just started a lot of rumors to try and get Colleen kicked out if not placed in jail Just for the fact she is Transgender.

I really don't like it when people on the Internet judge others just by hearing or seeing text that says some things they may or may not have done.

The only time i see statements about Colleen "exposing himself to young girls" is when the people trying to get Her kicked out are saying it.

And for all the talk about Evil people are going to use this to watch little girls or get off on some sick fetish....No perv or person trying to rape/watch or anything like that Needs get there gender changed just to do what they want... There is no magic stopping them from just walking in there..

And even if this was happening where a person is doing something wrong within the bathroom May it be Male or Female would be arrested, As it does not matter for there gender on doing Bad things in a bathroom... And i feel ashamed to have to even point all this out here on "LP"

....So maybe everyone getting upset over this Trans-woman should take a step back and think for a few days about why there upset, And maybe do more investigating before Hanging her up by her toes ....

My heart goes out to this poor women who is being ridiculed/Punished/made fun of/embarrassed and even being told to be put to death by her fellow Trans people without even knowing or understanding what happen or is happening.

And yes i could be wrong and she could just be a woman who wanted to flash her junk at some girl .. She could have done this in anger or she could have just opening her legs at the wrong time or The young girl in question Tried her best to Look to make sure She was a Man before Hating on him then made other girls say they seen it to. Who knows? But i am not going to sit here and Hang her for just word of mouth.

There was many times i got punished by teachers just because other people told on me for something i did not do, And not just 1 but Many.

.....Anyways that's my rant for all this..

[Guest KimberlyF]

http://www.adfmedia.org/files/EvergreenPoliceReport.pdf

This is the filed police report. CF did this two days in a row. There were minors in the room, and on day one CF was sitting with legs spread displaying male genitalia. On day two CF was naked displaying genitalia.