Lying by ommission ?

[Sakura]

I was talking to a trans friend of mine a few days ago , in the humourous banter we often times share a seriouse question formed , her " Do you ever feel you are lieing to people ? a lie of omission i mean " i know i do deffinately bend the truth where it is concerning my past or how i was gendered. or only tell people half truths . but then there are the assuming lies . were it is not me it is some one else just assuming , like other women assuming i have a period. or the ability to get pregnant . also in these assumptions , they tell me very very personal stuff about them selves . Like this one girl i am friends with describing an issue she was having down there , she is like 20 , and i think views me some what as a sister or just assumes i would know. because she assumes i have like anatomy and we are friends. one girl while in the rest room . she had fell i guess and landed right squi on her arse . she was complaining about it , but then she felt complelled to drop her jeans and show me . it was a pretty nasty bruise , when another woman walks in and goes " eeerr am i interupting ?" laughs then is like " OMG you need to tell your boy friend to take it easier on you , that looks like it is going to leave a mark" then we all laughed . guys hitting on me , or telling me about there own personal things.

i have been working here for nearly 2 years. i am well liked by most , i dare say loved by a few. BUt i wonder if or when these lies of omission catch up to me....... what will be the out come. i suspect i know, as it has happened before, but never on a scale quite this grand , truthfully i have built few strong relationships with other people since transition. or had people so emotionaly invested into the girl they think i am. I mean i am that girl, strong willed funny caring stands up for what she believes and a good friend above all else. i only tell or don't tell them the things i feel are irrelevent to being friends with me . i suspect the men there would take it hardest . not only am i friends with most all of them ..... most i know are quite smitten with me as well. that is the real danger, Men in larg groupes tend to take the news that the girl they were all drooling over is physically male quite hard as there is no way for them to save face . what they thought of you is already out there and in most cases the only remidy is violence.

it is prolly just me over analyizing the question. as it stands no one has any clue there , it is a factory if any one even had the slightest suspicion . i would know about it and i see it as self preservation . it is not a crisis i am having , just wonder how those who are stealth feel about this situation as i don't meet many who are stealth or stealth to the degree that i am. so the brain picking is slim at times .

[Carolyn Marie]

Sakura, I would imagine that everyone has a different standard, a different view, of how much to divulge to others, and it is a very personal decision we each make. I don't think there is any one "right" answer or wrong one, for that matter.

Let me ask you this; when you meet someone, or when you become friends with someone, do you feel obligated to tell them your entire medical history? Do you feel the need to divulge every embarrassing thing that happened to you in your youth, or every major mistake you ever made? I would guess the answer is no. I don't think it should be any different for us regarding who we are, or were.

When I began my volunteer duties recently, I made a decision that I would be stealth to the maximum possible degree. I have met many staff, and many other volunteers, some of whom I have become quite friendly with. We talk about our kids, we talk about our home lives, we talk about what we did on the weekends and holidays. i haven't told a single one that I'm active in the TG Community. I don't mention that I participated in Pride Day in West Hollywood. They know that my partner is female and that i have a son, but if they guess the rest, they haven't told me. I don't feel like I'm lying to them. They simply aren't entitled to know more than I'm willing to divulge. I am entitled to my privacy, and so are they.

Women I used to work with, who of course knew me "when," would bring me into conversations about female things. I was one of them, even though they knew my past. I didn't feel funny about it, and I don't feel funny about it when they don't know my past. Might someone be upset with me someday? Perhaps, but that still doesn't mean I am obligated to tell all. After all, who does?

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

[Guest -guest-]

I also had the experience of being brought into female conversations in the workplace by women who knew I was transgender.

There was no deception involved. They just accepted me as the person I said I was and never looked back.

[Guest LizMarie]

I agree with Carolyn. There simply is no reason to run around telling every single person that you are trans. It's really none of their business nor is what is between your legs their business. That issue is strictly between you and with whomever you chose to share that information.

Unless you are planning to detransition, I wouldn't worry about it.

I know in the past you've also talked about SRS. If you do go that route, it becomes even less of an issue. If I were you, I'd simply say nothing unless directly asked.

[Guest KimberlyF]

I think there are the two issues here. The first is what should we tell, to whom and when? That is a totally a personal decision.

Then how will people respond if/when they find out. I have always put that as one of the risks of being stealth. So many pros but the con would be keeping up the act and living with a fake past. Questions will come up. Either tell the truth or continue living with complete acceptance as a total equal in the target gender. Can't have both.

I think if you are a good person, many will try to find a way to understand. People will be hurt and angry and those are justified feelings. Violence is a minor risk but never justified.

[Guest Lizzie McTrucker]

My question is this: you've been at this job for 2 years and doing a good job at staying stealth so my question is, what do you think is going to happen that you'll break your stealth, or what someone might do to break your stealth? Only a handful of people know about me, the rest just assume I'm a woman like them and you know what? I'm okay with that. I don't feel a need to come out to them because there's no reason to. I'm being treated like I want to be treated. I'm in the other tribe. I'm on the other team. I'm exactly where I want to be so why complicate things? Sure I've had to tell a series of little white lies but it's just to people I'll probably never see again so it's no big deal.

You're living the life many girls on here dream about. You're young, you're pretty, you're full time and stealth and have a gorgeous figure. You have a boyfriend. Why complicate things? Just keep doing what you're currently doing because it seems to be working out just fine from what I can tell.

[Drea]

Sakura, I know that you know I am neither a big fan of the idea of "stealth" nor the sort of entitlement that drives one to declare you can do what you want. In the former stealth often is a reflection of hiding and insecurity or on the flip side of the "I pass so well nobody has a clue" sort of bragging. In the latter the sort of entitlement that ignores the reactions and feelings of others. A sort of trans entitlement attitude.

As someone who has been living full time longer than any of the others commenting thus far, I am sure you recognize the difference in how women who know would you include you in womens things verses those who don't know.

You to a degree touch on a bit of one of the biggest conundrums that any MTF who is interested in truly integrating as a woman and just being like another woman must face. The fact that you can't engage in the sort of intimacy women exchange with each other without acknowledging you are trans which will in turn immediately causes them to see you differently and put you back in the other category where they know.

Unfortunately there is no solution to this conundrum. In those situation where very personal information is shared, what do you do? You can sympathize with how a woman feels during her period, but can you genuinely share any of your own experience? And no matter how much you hear of experiences of others, could you adopt them as your own? Fact is trying to present such as your own experience will come across as not-genuine. So you end up having to nod your end and allow the other women to assume. The lies of omission. For a genuinely honest person that can be pretty difficult.

As for your question, what will they think? What will happen if they find out? Well, the key question is if there is any suspicion at all about you being trans? Awareness these days is high enough that I pretty much accept hat people may wonder. Oh they aren't certain. But folks are too polite to express suspicions and your friends are your friends and for that reason they won't say things. Furthermore, if you are well liked, most who may suspect something, really don't care. They know you as a person, not as some stereotype.

I've had the experience were people never gave me a single clue there was any suspicion I might be trans for better than a decade. Then one day, while sitting next to someone, this guy says something like "I hear one of the moms used to be a guy, I wonder which one that is". Well either there is some other trans person or that was a reference to me. Now this guy wasn't negative, but more interested in spotting the trans person.

Now I never assume perfect passability, so it wasn't something I hadn't allowed for, but it goes to show how long rumors may exist that one never hears about except in some usual circumstance.

So if there is any suspicion at all, even if only considered a 5% possibility, if people find out, it really won't make any difference. That is because they have already come to know you and have factored that possibility in already. And if there truly has been no suspicion at all, they have come to know you already so it shouldn't make a big difference. Unless you have been really romantically or physically involved with any who hadn't known I suspect they will fall back on the way they have come to view you already.

[Sakura]

Oh , i am not planning to out my self to any one anytime soon. personally i have trouble telling people that i have to tell namely medical professionals that i am trans.

i was more more asking the question to see what others do, or if they them selves feel it to be right or wrong.

I personally do not like the term stealth either. but i also feel the term integration is not as wildly understood by the trans community as the word stealth , so i use it as a generic reference. though i do feel their is a world of difference between what the word stealth and what the word integration implies . in the context of transition.most wont understand what integration is until it happens to them. so stealth to me is just a cleaner term to use.

in reality though factory/ manual labor jobs are a radically different social structures than those of more professional career paths. like engineers . or doctors or even administrative office type jobs. namely there is alot more at stake if one does not act in a proffessional manner . years of schooling credentials certifications and being labled a bigot from one place of employment to the next . in industrial type jobs one literally can just be fired for being a homophobe or a racist pick up and move to the next factory down the road. in these places rumors take on lives of thier own and any juicy gossip will make it back to the ears of the person it is about. there are very few concieved boundaries . things that would be considered rude or harassing are common place in these types of settings. That is why when i say no one has a clue it is said with confidence as i know well the type of environment i work in and the type of people i work with.

as you have said i have come to know the difference in how i am treated by those who know versus those who don't. right of the bat if there were even a 1% chance that i was male, the men there would not interact with me beyond that of their job duties maybe 1 or 2 would remain "friendly". and most exchanges become awkward. i see how these guys react to the known gay men that work there ( or suspected ones) . i have been also on the side of being the known transsexual in the work place. the simple fear of that 1% being true would not allow them to inteact with me in a friendly manner and being that i have such a friendly relationship with virtually all the males that work there. even thee most homophobic ones rules out any chance of them knowing. we joke and carry on mock flirt, burn each other. we really have very few taboo subjects that we do not try and burn each other about . so even on that if they were simply being friendly to me, would use it to burn me simpley because it would be a good burn ( to them ) . i also know of the sexual "fantasies " that go around about me. ( again stuff gets back to the one it is about in a factory)

On not being able to come across as genuin. i have invested alot of time in understanding the female condition. it was really only in this attempt to genuinely understand what it is like to be female that i realized what i thought i knew up to that point was not genuine. infact it was really only my male/trans interprtation of it. and most was complete bs. it is only once one sheds that sense of intitlment and preconcieved idea of what femininity is, can one really begin to sympathize with it or understand it. so i went to the source . i asked my mom to have the "talk" with me . same as she would have had with my sisters. she did and she spared no detail.... it was eye opening to say the least . my therapist was a great source as well. being a behavioal pysche she understands why men and women act like men and women. while i am still just a spectator. now when i speak of say " that time of the month " to another woman she will say " exactly ! " or the burdens that go along with being female. again they say " exactly !" .

i have really never went this long with out being outted, it eventually does find its way out , and i do imagine that at least here, i have earned enough positive rep and endeared these people to me in such away that if that time ever does come about . it will make little difference to most of them.

[KathrynJulia]

Hello Sakura:

You tell only what is pertinent. Before, long before I began transition into the woman that I have kept hidden, when I had two young children and worked with 5 woman, it was often remarked on that I was one of the girls when I clearly presented as male. I was told that I could talk girl all day long, yet I dressed male and was known as a father. They didn't know that I was also acting as mother because my wife did little outside of being the best teacher she could be. I was just being myself, nothing more.

I knew that I was dying inside to be female and to let Kathryn be free. When I left work, I reverted back to father, husband, and man. It was almost enough to be a woman all day at work, one of the girls. accepted as such. I ran into Nancy last week, one of the woman I used to work with. She liked my necklace I was wearing and commented on she like my hair style. She left with a smile on her face. She knows, it was just unspoken.

When my name is legally changed in a week, she won't be surprised in the least. I've fulfilled my responsibilities and there are multiple people who know that and respect that. There is no obligation to explain why I've waited his long to release Kathryn from confinement. People who really know me, need no explanation. Those that don't, don't. Life is like that. Enjoy being you girlfriend. It's long over do. Kathryn

[Guest Sarah Faith]

Sakura, I can't really speak to your situation too well as I haven't been full time nearly as long as you have. But I really don't see anything wrong in a lie of omission because honestly you are the girl that they have become emotionally invested in, the fact that you are trans is really none of their business at all regardless if they are attracted to you or not. My personal stance is that I'm not going to just tell people that I was born male just for the sake of telling them it's really none of their business, I don't know what I would say if someone asked I think I'd probably be honest but it really hasn't happened yet.

People lie about them selves all the time, and people leave out details about their lives all the time. I know in a world of detailed records and the internet following us around that the idea of a fresh start is pretty hard to reach but I don't think people should be obligated to carry the past around with them for all to see. So really I don't think you're doing anything that every single other person in the world isn't doing every day them selves.

Sarah

[Guest Jaques]

It can be difficult if people want to know everything about you and your life and its likely that lies will be inevitable if its not a one off meeting/conversation. I dont think that not telling anyone you are trans. is a lie at all, if its their assumption that you are a "regular" guy or gal, then that is about what they think - no problem.

I find it difficult to know what to do in a situation when I meet gay people as for some reason im very tempted to tell them - but I dont yet understand why - I am still working that one out - in the meantime, I sometimes avoid being in their company - not because of them but for instance, I belong to a chi gung group and there are two lesbians with whom ive had a few chats and like them. I would like to possibly see them socially, along with my partner but because they and the rest of my group see me as a regular guy, I dont want everyone to know because I enjoy my male status - does that make sense?

[Sakura]

I see nothing wrong with what i am doing. the saying " ignorance is bliss " i feel applies here . they like me for me. it just complicates things when people know. it was with in my first 1 year of transition i took the stand point of assuming that every one knows or atleast suspects i am trans , it really began sinking in that most if any really did not put 2 and 2 together. so i stopped telling people, and took the idea of " well i will just let them assume what they want about me " aka going stealth. as time goes on and stealth gave way to integration . instead of just flying under the radar. i just wanted to be like the other planes . as Jaques said. i enjoy my female status. i like how i am interacted with and how i can now interact with others more honestly . really the thought of being outted is thee most embarassing thing thing to me.

[VickySGV]

My major career for 33 years was spent in a strict information security environment. Our work involved some of the highest level financial security information the State had. Our security framework was based on two criteria. A right to know AND a NEED to know. Without BOTH elements being present, we did not share information even with co-workers, and even as a supervisor the last third of my career I had parts of my employee's work that I DID NOT NEED to know. I still think in those terms as far as my being Trans* especially during the last two years that I have been full time. I don't even consider it to be information omission if the two points are missing. There is just no information to be given.

[Guest Lizzie McTrucker]

Our security framework was based on two criteria. A right to know AND a NEED to know. Without BOTH elements being present, we did not share information even with co-workers

That's been the arguement I've been having with myself lately. With online friends who I've known for a few months now and really starting to develop some kind of friendship with, the debate comes up in my mind: should I tell them, or should I not tell them? Often times I want to tell them, but then the devil's advocate shows up on my shoulder and asks "Liz, do you need to tell them?" and most often the answer is no. I don't need to tell them, I'd like to tell them but there's no specific need to. So in the majority of cases, I just don't tell them. I'm almost federally legal female anyway so once I get that done I wouldn't actually be lying to people when I tell them I'm a woman.

[Guest Bellexia]

I see nothing wrong with what i am doing. the saying " ignorance is bliss " i feel applies here . they like me for me. it just complicates things when people know. it was with in my first 1 year of transition i took the stand point of assuming that every one knows or atleast suspects i am trans , it really began sinking in that most if any really did not put 2 and 2 together. so i stopped telling people, and took the idea of " well i will just let them assume what they want about me " aka going stealth. as time goes on and stealth gave way to integration . instead of just flying under the radar. i just wanted to be like the other planes . as Jaques said. i enjoy my female status. i like how i am interacted with and how i can now interact with others more honestly . really the thought of being outted is thee most embarassing thing thing to me.

And there would be nothing wrong with that. I plan on doing the same thing assuming I get this job. Why tell them if it doesn't pertain to them? Guys that hit on you? Chances are if they are going to beat you down if you don't tell them, they would do the same if you did tell them. As for the job? Stealth only goes so far in the age of information. If I wanted to find out anything from anyone here it wouldn't be impossibly hard. Even easier if I already have your social. That's life, given that most companies background check, there is no escaping that she used to be a he or vice versa. However in terms of the common interaction with employees, yeah what they don't know won't hurt them. As for what will happen if it does happen to slip out... always assume the worst and you won't be surprised. People will think differently of you than if you were a bio born girl. That sucks but that is life. It's not always bad but if you feel it's in your best interest to stay stealth I say do it. Just know you run a big gamble. *shrug*

[Guest KimberlyF]

I'm almost federally legal female anyway so once I get that done I wouldn't actually be lying to people when I tell them I'm a woman.

:O :O

So prior to someone in Washington allowing you the ability to change some paperwork you couldn't say you were a woman without lying?

Were you a man? Were you in the middle? If the Feds were to hypothetically change the rules again after you are a 'Federally legal female' would you cease to be a woman?