How do you know if you pass?

[Drea]

During one of the MTF meetings recently this question was brought up and resulted in some interesting discussion so I thought I would raise the question here.

So how do you know if you are passing? Person uses correct pronouns and honorific? How do you know they aren't simply being polite?

I feel this an important question as so many people dwell on either how well they might pass, fears about not passing. On the other hand some see passing as a cure all. The whole "passing privilege" thing. The belief if one passes their problems in society go away.

And then there are trans folks who get all uptight an bothered when someone uses a wrong pronoun. Is it the passing fail that is upsetting or something else where a person doing that is allowed to have so much sway over the trans person's feelings?

In my experience there are many levels of passing. There is the passing around people you walk past. There is passing with the average store clerk. There is the passing around store clerk you see very day. There is passing around co-workers. There is the passing around people you wish to become friends with without telling.

The ability to achieve casual passing verses passing among co-workers on a day to day basis is very different. And just because your co-workers never say anything, use correct name, pronouns and are polite, does that mean they don't know that you are trans? Or that suspicions abound and it is a subject of some gossip?

How does one know?

One could extend the question to how does one know if they are being accepted? Again can't people just be polite? Include you in things nominally for your stated gender but internally think of you as your birth gender? Is that okay?

We are already at a point that most people are going to be polite.

[Guest TGTrish]

Good question. One way I know I *was* passing happens when I seem to be passing, get carded, and notice a strong spontaneous disturbance on the person's face.

Trish

[Guest]

I think it's two fold.

Personally I'll probably consider myself passing when I look into the mirror and see a girl staring back. That's really all I'm looking for.

As for everyone else - I think when interacting with a complete stranger and they seem to instinctively use the correct pronoun you're probably passing. Id say especially if you aren't wearingg anything all that gendered - but I know from experience that clothing itself helps in passing.

Honestly though you're right - at the end of the day there really is no way to know if you're actually passing or if people are just assuming what to call you based on what they think you want. Probably best not to dwell on that thought though.

[Guest]

Alternatively you could enter the appropriate bathroom or locker room in some really conservative state and see if anyone makes a fuss. But do that at your own risk.

[tracy_j]

I have often wondered about this as, when I think about it, I don't know how I am passing, but I don't let it bother me. If I obviously fail that draws attention. I think about it for a while and usually determine why, but it happens. Usually I am a woman in my own little world. I dress and behave as such and seldom get negative comments / pronouns. I just take things as they come.

It may not be quite the same thing but take a cis woman with a disfigurment of some kind. She may worry about adverse reaction to it if noticed, and she would think it obvious and impossible to miss. We often think in a similar way. A fact that is a constant fear to us - How can anyone miss it? Don't get spooked - just learn from obvious negative reactions and carry on with life!

It is possible that in many cases others are unsure on gender but to be on the safe side if they are seeing someone dressed as a woman then to use feminine pronouns is generally sensible as few people dressed as such would be offended.

With more direct communication I think Trish has it. It would be difficult to most to keep up a pretence they did not believe for any length of time without showing some negative sign.

Tracy

[Guest]

A very timely question, Drea.

I realized this past weekend that I do blend in. I do not like the word "pass / passing".

I visited a local home improvement store which I have frequented for a few years.

People I have been dealing with for some time did not seem to recognize me. Maybe they were simply being polite.

I also had dinner with a few friends whom I have not seen in a year on Saturday evening.

Some of whom commented, they would have walked right past me on the street.

Huggs,

Joann

[Guest TGTrish]

One sign that really boosts my fem ego is how other women, clerks, store help, etc, treat me when they appear to have clocked me as one of them. As a male they will be friendly and helpfull but there is still a noticeable reserve. When I'm dressed female and apparently passing they are usually quite chatty and relaxed. I love it! I'm still feeling sorry for the young female store clerk who carded me once though. I think it half traumatized her, poor thing.

Trish

[Guest]

That is a tough question. As stated before, there are different levels of 'pass', but I believe when you feel good about yourself, which means people are being pleasant...

-Fiona

[Guest Mickey]

I really really hate that word, "passing". I love how Janet Mock said it. But since my memory kinda sucks, I'm just gonna put it in my own words, if'n y'all don't mind. You see, passing, is a verb. It means that I am actively doing something to "pass" as something that I am not. As if I am trying to trick somebody. Trying to fool people into thinking that I am something, that I am not. I am simply being me. Being the woman I've always known myself to be. I am actually being more honest with people now, than I ever was in my whole dang life. Understand this, my whole life, I tried to pass as a man. When I knew good and well, that I was NOT a man. I gave up trying to pass. Instead I am in love with my life as my true self.

[Guest Lizzie McTrucker]

Alternatively you could enter the appropriate bathroom or locker room in some really conservative state and see if anyone makes a fuss. But do that at your own risk.

It's not as scary as people make it out to be. I've gone in bathrooms all over the country. Never had a problem.

I've gone in bathrooms in another country, never had a problem.

I've even asked where the bathroom is and was directed to the location of the ladies room.

Busy bathrooms, empty bathrooms, solo bathrooms, bathrooms where the light was off.

I've gone in a box, I've gone with a fox. I've gone over here, I've gone over there.

One stall, two stalls, red states, blue states.

Wait, I didn't intend on spoofing Dr. Seuss...

[Guest Razilee]

I like that, Drea, "Am I being accepted?" rather than "Am I passing?" Then it doesn't matter so much what the the other person is thinking or thinking about what I would think if they let me know what they were really thinking. What really matters that we accept each other where we're at, like God does.

"What the world needs now is love, sweet love."

Raz

[Guest]

Alternatively you could enter the appropriate bathroom or locker room in some really conservative state and see if anyone makes a fuss. But do that at your own risk.

It's not as scary as people make it out to be. I've gone in bathrooms all over the country. Never had a problem.

I've gone in bathrooms in another country, never had a problem.

I've even asked where the bathroom is and was directed to the location of the ladies room.

Busy bathrooms, empty bathrooms, solo bathrooms, bathrooms where the light was off.

I've gone in a box, I've gone with a fox. I've gone over here, I've gone over there.

One stall, two stalls, red states, blue states.

Wait, I didn't intend on spoofing Dr. Seuss...

Missy you are simply over the top! LOL! I love Dr Seuss and you! Please keep tearing us up!

I had a first at the library the other day. I was in paying my water bill in the stall and a woman spoke. Not that I noticed as other talking women were leaving the Lady's room. As I put myself together and stepped out she spoke and said "I asked you were you got those great shoes?" "Oh, I'm sorry I'm a little hard of hearing. Payless." We chatted shoes going out the door together

That was a first! I mean friends and I have chatted door to door.

I pass the very best in my high heels with my head held high, a sweet smile on my face, poking my boobs and butt out like a new spring heffer. Giggle.

It's a wink and a smooth at ease conversation as they are all my sisters. Regardless of nicely feminine dressed and made up, the very best is when a gal says "I didn't know about you at first, but you're really a girl!" Yes we have a winner!

Women share with me their most intimate girl stuff and I share mine. Taboo stuff to tell men, so regardless I pass.

I parrot my AA sponsor; stick with the women and stay in the middle of the herd. Hug. JodyAnn

[Guest SonadoraXVX]

How do I know if I pass, depends on how I'm addressed in introductions, or if I'm addressed in male or female mode, without telling a person. Then again, I make no effort to pass, just sort of male fail mode, too much from work and school, to really address my passing ability, except my voice which I'm working on it.

[Carolyn Marie]

I think its a lot easier to know when you don't "pass" than when you do, and for the reasons you suggest, Drea. Most people are going to be polite, although there are always going to be those jerks who make it a point to be cruel, like the guy Sally ran into at the restaurant.

So at this point, I don't think about it too much. It is what it is. I'm in somewhat of a unique position, given the huge number of people I run across at the museum I volunteer at. Chances are, if I didn't pass, a few folks would have commented over the course of two years. But no one ever has, so I guess I do OK.

Would it bother me if someone misgendered me? I think I would be a tad disappointed, but if it was not intentional, I don't think I would be upset. if it was intentional, I would be angry. Would it hurt my self confidence? Considering how its worked out so far, no, I don't think so. The good outweighs whatever minor setback I might encounter.

I consider myself lucky. Lots of trans women have a much more difficult time, for many reasons. As I've mentioned many times here, a smile, a little self confidence, and some common sense go a very long way towards success. Those are rules I try to live by. So far, so good.

Carolyn Marie

[StephanieVikingGirl]

Do I pass? I prefer to say that I blend in seamlessly as just another woman. I am a wine tour guide in the Napa Valley, and I am completely accepted as one of the girls at work. Only my co-workers are aware that I am trans, the tour guests only know me as Stephanie. I know very well what I look, and sound like, and so that gives me extreme confidence in presenting as myself. I had a gay couple touring with me a couple of months ago (with no other tour guests on my tour that day). They were real comfortable with me during the tour, and so they said "well this might not be of interest to you, but it is to us, have you heard about the anti gay stuff going on in Indiana?", and I replied "yep, I have heard about it, and it really is terrible". So anyways, later on during the tour, when we were chatting at a table outside of a winery's tasting room, I decided to "come out" to them. They were astonished. They had thought that I was just a sympathetic cis-gender woman. They told me that I didn't register on their "gaydar" or "transdar", and that I was as stealth as could be. I was very happy to hear that of course! I thank the Gods every day for this blessing.

hugs,

Stephanie

[Cyndee]

I know I pass when I make it back to the right lane

I know I pass when I smell something foul

I know I pass when I am given a diploma

I pass at being Cynthia and hopefully human.

[Charlize]

I'm glad i came a bit late to this thread. I had my first good laugh of the day! Thanks Liz and Jody for the smiles i still feel. Passing is so relative and so much a matter of the situation. I move easily through my life and i do it as myself. Like Liz i've peed in some very red spots and chatted with other women as i checked my warpaint (my mothers description of makeup). Since society seems to place so much importance on where we pee i guess i pass in society.

My family makes mistakes. I will always be a husband and father.

Yesterday i had heart surgery. The hospital has my chart. My private parts were exposed. For the most part pronouns were correct regardless but i know i was passing as a trans* person not as a cis female.

i've learned to let that fall away. Time has given me that gift. As i accept this person others seem to accept her as well even though they may view her as a mugwamp.

I guess i can tell i pass by just feeling good about myself and accepting what comes my way.

A very good question Drea. Thanks for posting it.

Hugs,

Charlize

[JJ]

Perhaps it depends on the person but offsetting the deep desire to "pass"-a word I hate and never use because it is pejorative in my opinion and the opposite of what I am really doing-is that we also tend to be people watchers in our attempts to fit it in the past and read body language well.

I also was an abused child (as many of us were) and abused children usually end up being hyper aware of nuances of behavior as well as at reading body language. I then worked in fields where reading people was the key component to being able to do my job. As a Children's Protective social worker children's lives depended on it. If anything I am too sensitive to and aware of how people are really thinking and feeling.

For me becoming accepted in my identified gender was a process. With strangers of course being the first to see me as I am because they didn't have an image to overcome. When they said "Sir" without a second glance or hesitation it was clear. When people are being polite they will give themselves away by needing emotional recognition and feedback for it - in expression if nothing else. Routinely when my daughter and I were together and she mentioned needing to ask her husband or looking for something for her husband as her S/O insisted she call him -people looked at me even when he was there. Drove them crazy but amused me no end.

For awhile once I was addressed as "Sir " routinely gay guys were hitting on me-fairly blatantly on occasion. As I moved forward and the mannerisms of years of socialization fell away to become more who I am inside that happened less and less. Now it is women-especially little old women. I dress a little more than the norm for the area and apparently some women find that attractive. An attention I'm not particularly comfortable with -it's flattering on some level but uncomfortable too. They ask me questions about where things are in the store or drop something and put a hand on my arm and make prolonged eye contact when I answer or give them back what they dropped. Especially on the traditional senior day in the town where we shop. It's not all older women either though they seem more blatant about it. No way are they being polite. I've never been good at picking up on people flirting but it's unmistakable. Even my daughter and granddaughter have remarked on it.

Locally people are treating me as one of the guys and are forgetting it was ever different. One of my daughter's co-workers who watched my transition and around whom I've spent several hours at a time now and then was really confused when my daughter mentioned something about her biological father and told my daughter I am so much like every other guy now that she had forgotten my daughter had any other father. A guy who I used to interact with extensively in a theater group before transition was telling me a guy type story in terms he would have never used to a woman the other day. A neighbor in his late 80s and retired military has a reputation for speaking his mind very plainly and when we were having a conversation with another neighbor said "Got to be going boys" as he left. He wasn't being polite and he knew exactly who I am and my history. But in his mind I am now a man which actually amazes me.

It was a journey to get here. Looks won't do it. In fact to me in being accepted as your identified gender appearance is only the tip of a large iceberg. It takes time and a lot of inner work to rally change the gender you live in. And in my experience when I didn't "pass" or was still questionable to people they simply didn't use any honorific or pronoun rather than try to be polite. Polite just isn't something most people have time or are willing to take the trouble with though conversely neither is rudeness or confrontation.

Mostly I really believe we know how the people around us are reacting. Because we are for the most part watching closely for it and perhaps hyper aware.

When you start getting addressed as your identified gender then you can be sure that is how those people are seeing you. When something seems to puzzle them then you know you still have work to do. I have 60+ years socialization and conditioning and habits to undo. I'm actually amazed it has happened this fast. But I'll still keep working on expressing who I am in ways that accurate for me. I have no desire to be a stereotype. Just me. And that is perhaps the ultimate key. Playing a stereotype is false and people sense it and reject it. Being yourself will bring acceptance because you ARE what you are presenting from the inside out.

Just be patient because it does take time. It isn't a rejection of you if you get a misgender. It's an indication of something you need to work on mostly. You have to ask yourself what triggered it and what you may could have done differently. Appearance alone won't do it - I've known too many women over 6 feet and masculine in appearance as well as small guys with wiry build and high voices who were not questioned about gender. If you don't want to do that work then you have to live with those times. Without anger or resentment because you made the choice. If you are working on it keep reminding yourself that it i an ongoing process and has to be so. It isn't a rejection of you and it isn't personal usually.

Bottom line I think is not to think about "passing" but about expressing yourself as you are to the best of your ability and being open to learn and grow and change as you do. "Passing" should never be the goal. Living true to yourself should. For me anyway

Johnny

[Guest]

I know I pass when I make it back to the right lane

I know I pass when I smell something foul

I know I pass when I am given a diploma

I pass at being Cynthia and hopefully human.

I just put my coffee down to scroll my phone. Good thing as I was laughing so hard I fell on the floor! Hug.JodyAnn

[Guest]

I'm glad i came a bit late to this thread. I had my first good laugh of the day! Thanks Liz and Jody for the smiles i still feel.

Yesterday i had heart surgery. The hospital has my chart. My private parts were exposed. For the most part pronouns were correct regardless but i know i was passing as a trans* person not as a cis female.

i've learned to let that fall away. Time has given me that gift. As i accept this person others seem to accept her as well even though they may view her as a mugwamp.

I guess i can tell i pass by just feeling good about myself and accepting what comes my way.

A very good question Drea. Thanks for posting it.

Hugs,

Charlize

I'm glad you are back! I resently went to my local hospital being treated as female, all my records and ID reflected this. I was so happy they got it! I'm sure the plumbing was a medical technicality. Wonderful.

When I went to Banner hospital I showed my F marker ID and was questioned and embarrassed at admissions about an old guy's name matching my SS#. I explained. Then each person that dealt with me seemed as uncomfortable as I. When I left and removed my wrist band. JodyAnn "M" I was so angry and hurt as I was there for my chest not my plumber. I will never go back unless I am taken in unconscious!

My best is the independent hospital my doctor recommended. My "he" had his appendix taken out, three years earlier. later I returned as she. All the nurses had know of my bits, yet always treated me as one of the girls. I was thrilled!

Four of my nurse girl friends and the surgeon trooped into my room for my exit examination. My face showed hurt as Mr doctor kept referring to me as "He". All nurses frowning, one looked at him with discuss and shook her head. The nurse behind him raised her hand like she would slap him in the back of the head!

I grinned, raising the blanket, with alarm I looked at him and asked " What did you do?" He blinked and said I removed your Gall bladder." "What!" I exclaimed "I am here for vaginaplasty!" They all died laughing. The surgeon was stone faced. I wanted to say was your grandfather the surgeon the one that mutilated me at birth, but I held my piece. I had done enough. Charlize, enjoy here while you get well. Carefully gentle hug. JodyAnn

PS- I think I'm busted! I think Johnny knows I love to flirt with him, it's difficult not to, as he is such a hunk! Don't tell him I said that! JA

[Guest]

I try to not worry about passing but instead put my efforts at being myself.

I'm one of those people who do not like the word pass.

It might be because i'm french but that word have undertones of "being a fraud" to me.

a keen eye will always be able to tell if I was born a man or not just because of my skeletal structure.

besides, I know that if my main goal become to pass I will hurt myself a lot with the occasional failing

[Guest Syd_UK]

I really really hate that word, "passing". I love how Janet Mock said it. But since my memory kinda sucks, I'm just gonna put it in my own words, if'n y'all don't mind. You see, passing, is a verb. It means that I am actively doing something to "pass" as something that I am not. As if I am trying to trick somebody. Trying to fool people into thinking that I am something, that I am not. I am simply being me. Being the woman I've always known myself to be. I am actually being more honest with people now, than I ever was in my whole dang life. Understand this, my whole life, I tried to pass as a man. When I knew good and well, that I was NOT a man. I gave up trying to pass. Instead I am in love with my life as my true self.

i find this so beautiful <3 absolutely love your attitude.

i havent read all these comments yet but.. i dont pass, not physically in any case. i have told people im a bloke and most people usually respect my wishes about calling me Syd.. i absolutlely love hearing it.. never tire of it lol.. i feel its my real name.. i have always hated my female name.

it wasnt until recently that i chilled out about it a bit more.. on a music forum i used to go on people would deliberately use my old name to wind me up.. it worked a few times and i went ballistic.. now i just dont go there anymore.. um.. now people say it sometimes absentmindly, cos they forget.

in the pub people are usually kind of fascinated and ask me the inevitable question "have you got a ...." to which i answer no. i think i would be alot more concerned about it if i did. or maybe i would proudly say yes. i dont know. in the pub people sometimes shout "Syd !!!!!!!!!!" enthusiastically which i absolutley love. people never did that with my old name. people in the pubs around here are very vocal. <3 i have had a few people have a problem with me in the local pub simply for being trans. but for the most part they have been good about it i like the banter alot.

i feel like i look completely different to my actual appearance and sometimes i march up to the shop like a rock star and flirt with the ladies and act very outrageously and call all the guys magnificent and then march home singing as if im having my own private party in my mind.

then i look in the mirror and feel very bad. i want my outer appearance to match how i feel inside and it doesnt.

people tend to be very visual i find sometimes. recently i told a woman ive known for some years that i figured out who i was and that im a bloke.

"no you're not." she replied.

"yes, i am."

"well, you dont look like a bloke"

"i know." i said.

she wasnt nasty about it. its just i have big breasts and whatnot. but up until last week i was crying about it every day.

but then other times i feel nice especially after a bath. there are parts about being a woman that i will miss.

[Guest Syd_UK]

Locally people are treating me as one of the guys and are forgetting it was ever different. One of my daughter's co-workers who watched my transition and around whom I've spent several hours at a time now and then was really confused when my daughter mentioned something about her biological father and told my daughter I am so much like every other guy now that she had forgotten my daughter had any other father. A guy who I used to interact with extensively in a theater group before transition was telling me a guy type story in terms he would have never used to a woman the other day. A neighbor in his late 80s and retired military has a reputation for speaking his mind very plainly and when we were having a conversation with another neighbor said "Got to be going boys" as he left. He wasn't being polite and he knew exactly who I am and my history. But in his mind I am now a man which actually amazes me.

this is extremely encouraging

i find that guys do treat me in alot of ways as "one of the guys" despite my appearance mainly because of how i talk and act. also women have been treating me as a sort of honorary boyfriend for many years, long before i realised. i was always confused about it. now i really like it. at the pub i dont even mind people making fun of me about it. but i long to be seen completely as a man. even though i have some sort of "female" traits such as being very romantic at times and loving womens clothes.

i would love some kind of relations with women but im very consious of not being a man physically and very uncomfortable with it. i dont like being touched at the moment and it will take me a long time to be comfortable i think.

but i live in a traditional village and some people havent been accepting and the idea that they might one day see me completely as being male makes me feel amazing, thanks for writing that, i found it very helpful

[Guest Seanna]

I have often played with the question of whether or not I "pass". (To be clear, I, like many others here, HATE that term; it sounds like I'm trying to pass myself off as something I'm not, but I digress...) Having been on HRT for around 18 months or so now, I have definitely seen some physical changes, but it's often hard to tell how others see me. I have yet to have even the slightest issue with bathroom usage and have had several people, such as regular gas station attendants, seemingly assume that I was just your run-of-the-mill lesbian. Even my best friend since highschool told me recently that I looked very feminine now. At the same time, I still get some strange looks in public (not sure if they're because I look trans or because I look "like a lesbian") and some people in my life, including my wife, just don't see much difference in my appearance from before. With such varying opinions, it can often be difficult to know for sure.

Anyway, I recently had an experience which made me think that I must be "passing" a little better than I thought. Here's my story:

My best friend came into town to visit for the weekend and we (she, my wife and myself) decided to take the kids down to my apartment complex pool. I was wearing my now-typical swimwear, which consists of female board shorts and a racerback rashguard (both black, Volcom). Not male, but not overtly feminine, either. I also had my, still fairly short, hair pushed back with a headband. Anyway, the kids started playing with some other kids whose parents were all talking (and drinking) together. After awhile, we ended up joining said group and eventually wound up in the hottub. At some point, one of the guys asked my wife "So you're a single mom?" She looked a bit confused and replied simply with "No", gesturing at me. The guy responded "Oh! You and HER!? That's cool."

At this point, I had to reign myself in a bit...I really wanted to see where this would go...

So, the guy continued to explain how he was a hardcore Republican, but thought that we should "be allowed to marry", although he was worried that religious leaders would eventually be required to perform such ceremonies against their will. This conversation continued for some time, but never strayed from the concepts of lesbian and gay rights. I'm pretty sure that a guy like this, had he known that I was trans, would have brought that up.

After that topic passed, we continued to enjoy a wonderful evening with pleasant acquaintances. Needless to say, I left the pool feeling pretty good about myself.

~Seanna

[Guest noeleena]

Hi,

Appearance how you look and what you wear what clothes you buy , are they that importaint well may be for some male or female in my case female , yes if you wont to be part of the group that has this code of dress you must subscribe to..... to belong very much so .

Yet is that really true for those that don't fit that group or dress code , do I pass or blend in as a female , well I did not think so and in one group no I was on the outer , maybe im too much female for them to wont around , does not matter ,

Im accepted for ...who ...I am not what I wear or how I look or don't , so what makes that difference in my case being a female my personality my demeanor how I interact with others , just because im female does not make it any easye,er and some of us don't have that female look about us facial wise , yes I,v struggled with this most of my life 57 years,

so whats the difference, allowing others to know who you are what makes you tick your interests and things you do , of cause having many friends does make so much of a difference and getting along side them and this takes time to happen yes 57 years of out of 67 .

and will this happen if you..... don't .......accept your self for who you are , you all must answer that , I have for myself and yes I have , and did 57 years ago .

...noeleena...