Trans Vs. Gay?

[Guest Leigh]

so, this is a pretty open topic. but i'm really just curious about how we as trans are treated in the gay community.

the fact is, in my experiences, a lot of trans kids are queer. and we aren't, we started out thinking we were.

for example, before i knew i was trans, i knew i was queer (i'm pansexual). and so i went to the gay community (i really hate that term, but, you know what i mean). i was hoping that there i might finally feel comfortable, i might feel safe and at home. but when i realized that i'm trans, and tried to talk to my gay friends about it, i was rejected. even in gay media trans kids are the joke. tguys are really not represented at all, and tgirls are overly masculine and look like bad drag queens with bad personalities.

not really surprising given that my gay friends were less accepting then the straight friends i actually told. one was grossed out, another thought i was joking or in a phase, and another just ignored me because she already knew one trans kid and that seemed like enough for her diversity points.

so... the question is, besides the poll... what have you're experiences been? and what's your take on why trans kids are the outcasts of the gay community?

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora NobleLight,

I'm asexual bi-romantic, I'm not sure where I should be ticking, so I ticked 'other'

I have many gay[male and female] friends none have expressed any negative feeling toward me being transgender nor for that matter about any trans-people... My gay friends treat me no different than my straight friend who also know of my past...I guess it just depends on who you know...

Mind you, I do live on a beautiful island where most people are pretty laidback ie, 'live and let live' mindset...

Metta Jendar

[Guest Pól_Eire]

I don't really fit in with the queer community much at all. There are a couple of reasons for that. The main ones are that I don't identify with the counter-culture part of the community and that my experiences with the queer community have uniformly been extremely conformist (admittedly to a different 'norm,' but still conformist).

As to why gay people can be less than friendly to transpeople, I think sometimes we can be seen as threatening, even if we aren't. One reason may be that it's the other side of the gender identification/sexual orientation problem -- just because a gay person likes someone of the same gender does not mean that they want to be that other gender. Another may be simple, as distasteful as it is: gay people may be less than friendly to transpeople for all the same reasons that straight, cisgendered people may be less than transpeople. Just because a person is gay doesn't mean that they necessarily have any more insight into what it is to be trans, or any more empathy. I am by no means saying that all gay people are this way, simply that it is possible that some are.

One possible avenue for further discussion is lifestyle v.s. identity, but I don't know if we want to open that can of worms, so I'll hold off on saying anything about that. I do not mean to offend anyone, and I hope I haven't.

-Pól

[Guest Zabrak]

It depends who you meet. My S.O is bi and hes been fine. Besides my S.O I only hang out with straights and they've been fine with it. I don't think I'll be meeting or making any friends in the near future so I'm not worried.

[Guest Leigh]

thanks for the comments and perspectives. but to me the whole issue is just so confusing because so many trans people ARE gay. so we are part of the community for reasons besides our trans-identities.

to Pol Eire, i agree that sometimes it is just a lack of understanding equal to the lack of understanding by "normal" heteros.

still, i feel that the trans community at large supports the gay community, and so the understanding should be greater just because there's more communication.

maybe i'm just expecting too much from people in general.

anyway, thanks again for the comments.

hope i've not offended anyone.

peace&love

[Guest nova]

so, this is a pretty open topic. but i'm really just curious about how we as trans are treated in the gay community.

the fact is, in my experiences, a lot of trans kids are queer. and we aren't, we started out thinking we were.

for example, before i knew i was trans, i knew i was queer (i'm pansexual). and so i went to the gay community (i really hate that term, but, you know what i mean). i was hoping that there i might finally feel comfortable, i might feel safe and at home. but when i realized that i'm trans, and tried to talk to my gay friends about it, i was rejected. even in gay media trans kids are the joke. tguys are really not represented at all, and tgirls are overly masculine and look like bad drag queens with bad personalities.

not really surprising given that my gay friends were less accepting then the straight friends i actually told. one was grossed out, another thought i was joking or in a phase, and another just ignored me because she already knew one trans kid and that seemed like enough for her diversity points.

so... the question is, besides the poll... what have you're experiences been? and what's your take on why trans kids are the outcasts of the gay community?

I have attended lots of trans support groups since I've been in San Francisco, and this complaint about the gay community comes up a lot. It's pretty much all transsexuals . . . around here anyway. I think it's got a lot to do with the gay political activists. They've been saying for years things like, 'we are an embarrassment and we would just hold them back from achieving rights and protections. They also (some) don't want to be associated with trans people because of the stigma of mental illness put on us. These are things that I've heard and read about in my area. Personally, I think it may be the other way around--The gay drag entertainer gets confused with the transsexual population and the public thinks we are all 24/7 drag queens. But we all have in common the prejudice and discrimination we suffer from our communities, so when gay activists throw us under the bus, they are just comming off as hypocrites, and hypocrites lack credibility . . . in my view. There are lots of gay people that live in my apt. building, and I've only had a problem with one of them. This guy taped a note on my door a couple of years ago that said, "What are you, a man or a woman? You are a freak". He apologized later, after the whole building found out how ignorant he was and he had to apologize to me.

[Guest RainBird]

I selected Female/Straight..

The title sounds like an episode of 'Animal Face-Off' from cable tv lol

I think the 'tgal' would win.. she is smarter and faster hehe :lol:

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Hey NobleLight,

I think the reason why transgendered individuals are not readily accepted in the gay community is for the same reason why we are not accepted readily in the mainstream community. Gay people are satisfied with their birth gender (they are simply attracted to their same gender). Mainstream people are also satisfied with their birth gender and are attracted to the opposite gender from themselves. We on the other hand are not satisfied with our birth gender and are in some stage of being the opposite gender from our birth. Our attraction to genders is a mixed bag (and I'll leave it at that). As far as our gender identity is concerned, we are fundamentally different from gay as well as mainstream people. Funny, we understand and accept them (gay and mainstream), but we are not understood nor accepted by them. For many, many people, the idea of saying your are not the gender of your birth is as incomprehensible as saying your are not from this planet.

LOL

bernie

[Guest Lizzie McTrucker]

I think they're jealous because we can have SRS and then get legally married.

[Guest Pól_Eire]

Gay people are satisfied with their birth gender (they are simply attracted to their same gender). Mainstream people are also satisfied with their birth gender and are attracted to the opposite gender from themselves. We on the other hand are not satisfied with our birth gender and are in some stage of being the opposite gender from our birth.

Take a look at the coming-out process:

When you come out as gay, you're asking people to respect and acknowledge your sexual orientation, but not to treat you very differently (for the most part). When you come out as trans, you're asking people to change the name they call you, the pronouns they use when they talk and think about you, and to a greater extent, their expectations for you in how you act, dress, and talk.

Consider these two situations:

Hypothetical Situation A: You're trying to explain, at a basic level, what being gay is/ is like to a person who is not and does not know what it is. Unless they are asexual, you can relate your attraction to your own gender as being "just like" their own attraction to the opposite gender. It becomes something that they can understand by analogy, and they can use their own experiences of finding someone attractive to transitively relate to your experiences of finding someone attractive.

Hypothetical (OK, maybe not so hypothetical) Situation B: You're trying to explain, at a basic level, what being trans is/ is like to a person who is not and does not know what it is. You're essentially asking them to imagine a separation between something they never saw as separate before -- their gender and the sex of their body -- and it's something they didn't even know could be separate. There isn't an easily reachable analogous experience that this person has likely had that you can use to get them to relate to your own feelings, like you could in using their own sexual orientation to explain yours.

Like bernie said, we're talking about absolutely fundamental differences here. I think we understand and accept gay people far more easily than they do us because understanding what it is to be gay is fundamentally an easier thing to understand.

-Pól

[Guest Leigh]

Like bernie said, we're talking about absolutely fundamental differences here. I think we understand and accept gay people far more easily than they do us because understanding what it is to be gay is fundamentally an easier thing to understand.

i understand what both of you are saying. it's just disappointing to me.

i have tried to explain it to non-trans kids by asking them to imagine what it would be like to wake up one day as the wrong gender...but i guess you can't really get it unless you experience it.

thanks everyone for your comments

btw, bernie, you are so cute. i can't help smiling ever time i see your posts.

[Guest OneOutOfnOne]

The only friend I've come out to whose initial reaction wasn't positive and supportive was a gay friend who gave a sort of stunned-surprised, 'Oh. ...Really?' He's perfectly fine with it, and even told me later that he has another friend going through the same thing and offered to introduce us, but it was interesting how he reacted at first, since I had heard that the gay 'community' wasn't always so accepting of us. This friend is also going to be the one who outs me to the whole world, because the charming fellow simply can't keep a secret. Worse things have happened.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

i understand what both of you are saying. it's just disappointing to me.

i have tried to explain it to non-trans kids by asking them to imagine what it would be like to wake up one day as the wrong gender...but i guess you can't really get it unless you experience it.

thanks everyone for your comments

btw, bernie, you are so cute. i can't help smiling ever time i see your posts.

Thanks NobleLight!!!

xoxoxo

bernie

[Guest CharliTo]

I actually have been avoiding gay communities for now... I think it's cuz I felt like I didn't fit in....especially my college's one.

I think it's also cuz I'm not the most "out" person out there either....

As far as explaining things, I put it to extreme and told my guy friends who are a lil' less understanding things like "okay, what if you were wearing girl clothings right now? you won't like it right? well imagine that that's the kind of feeling you have when your birth sex is not matching you"

or something like that...

[Guest Little Sara]

I voted female and straight, though I'm mostly pansexual, I don't see myself being romantically involved with anyone but a man, so it balances out.

I was asexual prior to transition, so I never got in the LGBT community. Asexuality was unrecognized until shortly ago (and still gives mostly Huh? what's that even now) and I didn't know about it.

[xanyx]

I even feel concern about being acceepted even in trans community, not only in gay community..

I'm FTM and androgynous looking.. so I don't go to gay clubs at this point, cause I feel out of place, but I'd like to.

I found this great transgender club, and I like the music there a lot, and the dancefloor; the club is really

MtF and gay male admirers... now I went there once and I was the only genetic female there I think (I was of course dressed as a guy). The door girl who's MtF weren't friendly and I dunno if its because of what I am. I want to go back to the club, but I wonder about feeling of isolation cause I kind of caught a weird vibe like people there were guessing hard what I am. I really like that club and don't know if I should go back....

I'm goth, so I'd be threatening enough to normal people even without being trans, now being trans and goth is like a complete freak to some of them. I guess over the years I hardened up and bottled up to the point I dont' really care who accepts me and thinks what... Yes I think certain genetic male people are threatened by FTM because they feel that a woman "sneaks" into their "club" under false disguise sort of, this is about misogyny ultimately. The same goes to MtF not being accepted in some gay circles, a misogyny might be the cause.

[Guest Little Sara]

I even feel concern about being acceepted even in trans community, not only in gay community..

I'm FTM and androgynous looking.. so I don't go to gay clubs at this point, cause I feel out of place, but I'd like to.

I found this great transgender club, and I like the music there a lot, and the dancefloor; the club is really

MtF and gay male admirers... now I went there once and I was the only genetic female there I think (I was of course dressed as a guy). The door girl who's MtF weren't friendly and I dunno if its because of what I am. I want to go back to the club, but I wonder about feeling of isolation cause I kind of caught a weird vibe like people there were guessing hard what I am. I really like that club and don't know if I should go back....

I'm goth, so I'd be threatening enough to normal people even without being trans, now being trans and goth is like a complete freak to some of them. I guess over the years I hardened up and bottled up to the point I dont' really care who accepts me and thinks what... Yes I think certain genetic male people are threatened by FTM because they feel that a woman "sneaks" into their "club" under false disguise sort of, this is about misogyny ultimately. The same goes to MtF not being accepted in some gay circles, a misogyny might be the cause.

Are you positive they were gay admirers? I'm used to straight or bisexual admirers, and probably would not go with a gay man (if he wants man-on-man action, he'd be pretty disappointed). And I'm pre-op btw.

[Guest Stuv]

May I contribute to this discussion? Feel free to exclude me.. I'm just a bioguy. I voted "other" on the poll, didn't feel I was represented by any of the choices. I rarely have felt represented or included in anything when it comes to gender or sexuality, and I'm a bit of a loner (don't know which came first, either).

A quick and dirty list of thoughts..

-People "need", in their cultural experience, an "us" and a "them". People to identify with, and people to identify in contrast. It helps us to find ourselves.

-Stereotypes are nearly always based in some sort of fact. Consider that "the worst news travels fastest" and it's easy to imagine why they can be so negative, unfortunately.

-The most interesting facets of an entity are the most interesting! People are going to remember, relate and pass on those details.

-The more oppressed, excluded or distanced-from-the-norm a minority is, the odder it's going to get. When a group is not stigmatized, they will generally acclimate, if they wish to. Groups that -want- to be excluded will often do everything in their power to keep it that way, however. (seems to me like evolutionary theory at work!)

This may be a little blunt, but here goes..

In my experience, some gays feel "weird enough", and transsexuals just make it harder for gays to become accepted. In the case where gays don't feel a need to fit in, there's little-to-no identification with other parts of the queer community. I've encountered a lot of animosity, misogyny and (best of all!) misandry among plain old gays, and it's nearly always more distasteful than the anti-gay sentiment among the hets.

To be completely honest, as a cisgender, discovering transsexuality was like finding aliens "among us". My reaction was something along the lines of "Really?! Neato." I felt so little association with "normal" people that it was slightly more exciting than a new flavor of ice cream.. never thought it would impact me much either. How naïve!

I'm blessed to live in a body I can accept, and to be sufficiently patient to pass as whichever sexuality is demanded by the situation.

[Guest Zack L]

I'm fairly active in the queer community in my area -- Have met tons of friends at gay dances and such and I think I got roped into helping decorate for gay prom at the last one. Everyone I meet at those conferences and dances has been very nice and supportive. Although to be fair, there seem to be quite a few genderqueers who go to these things. I know of at least one other transman, a transgirl, and two androgynous people I've met there, so it might be a safety in numbers thing. But my group at these events includes all the transpeople, a bi guy, a few gay guys, and like 6 lesbians. XD Overall I've had a good experiance with everything from the queer community so far, I'm glad. =3

[Guest Zack L]

Oh. Also, I lean more towards guys, yet it seems the lesbians and bi girls are the only ones who seem attracted to me...blargh. Note to self: Stop mentioning that I thought I was a lesbian before realizing trans status.

[Guest Nire]

"the enemy of my enemy is my friend" probably why the trans community was linked with the gay community in the first place, but I like that the two groups are together like a step towards unity. But this discrimination is news to me, I didn't really know that the gay community could be like that, actually I'm not even so sure if there is a gay community around here so I really don't know what I'm talking about.

btw, voted other, so I think I'm something in between-ish, and sexuality: maybe pansexual?

[Guest doodle]

I voted female pansexual

I started thinking I was gay like so many others than found out I wasn't quite a surprise . I think goth is cool . I was sort of pre goth when I was young dyed my hair flat black also my eyebrows wore only black clothing than black womens clothing for years - a total freak at the time. I'm with a bi woman now for a long time. I'm a relationship driven person not sexual driven. I've never had much luck with the gay community men or lesbians. I did live with a lesbian for about a year,but there was to much pressure from the lesbian community about her being with me so we broke up. I'm still attracted to men on a pure animal level but after a number of bad relationships with them I just gave up trying. My partner also had a bad time with men . I think that we got together in the beginning by trashing men.Straight people have been nicer to me than gays

doodle

[xanyx]

Are you positive they were gay admirers? I'm used to straight or bisexual admirers, and probably would not go with a gay man (if he wants man-on-man action, he'd be pretty disappointed). And I'm pre-op btw.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that most admirers were gay, but again here can be a discussion as what you'd define as man-on-man action... The bottom line they weren't into biofemales and what they have. A lot of girls there seemed to have penis and not hide this fact... In general, that place is referred as queer by people who go there I think.

[Guest Leigh]

May I contribute to this discussion? Feel free to exclude me.. I'm just a bioguy. I voted "other" on the poll, didn't feel I was represented by any of the choices. I rarely have felt represented or included in anything when it comes to gender or sexuality, and I'm a bit of a loner (don't know which came first, either).

i have nothing against bioguys...except maybe a little jealousy. sorry if you felt left out.

-People "need", in their cultural experience, an "us" and a "them". People to identify with, and people to identify in contrast. It helps us to find ourselves.

i understand why you'd think that, or why lots of people may.. and may act like that, but i'm a humanist (mostly) so i can't really relate.

This may be a little blunt, but here goes..

In my experience, some gays feel "weird enough", and transsexuals just make it harder for gays to become accepted. In the case where gays don't feel a need to fit in, there's little-to-no identification with other parts of the queer community. I've encountered a lot of animosity, misogyny and (best of all!) misandry among plain old gays, and it's nearly always more distasteful than the anti-gay sentiment among the hets.

that's kind of how my sister tried to explain it too me...her theory is that the gay community feels as if it's hard enough to be accepted by the heteros without having all us trans kids associated with them...

thanks for the imput

[Guest Leigh]

Oh. Also, I lean more towards guys, yet it seems the lesbians and bi girls are the only ones who seem attracted to me...blargh. Note to self: Stop mentioning that I thought I was a lesbian before realizing trans status.

lol...i knew a transguy who only liked lesbians because he was a lesbian before his transition...too bad all the lesbians thought of him as a guy...rightfully...lol