Still Not Passing

[Guest Benzrathe]

New here, but for what it's worth - I agree with bernie. The lil douch-um darlin' was just being viscecious(sp). He could've, and mostly likely did see you as male, but the comment was his adolescent attempt at posturing in response to bein' scolded of sorts. Bio men get the same kinda responses.

Your response is what I'd be examining, and I have cuz I've been there too, man. Its the result of an ingrained fear, because we've been brainwashed to believe that unless we were born biologically "correct", we're not "real (insert gender here)".

Its all about your personal perception bro. Took me a while but it's like bronx said, I am a man. They can say/think what they want, because I (now) know who I am. So if/when I hear crap like that, I don't assume it because they're lookin' beneath some kinda veneer - its just people being the typical snotwads they can be. Don't live in fear bro. People really only see what WE want them too... and if they can, BFD! Capeche`?

Benz

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

New here, but for what it's worth - I agree with bernie. The lil douch-um darlin' was just being viscecious(sp). He could've, and mostly likely did see you as male, but the comment was his adolescent attempt at posturing in response to bein' scolded of sorts. Bio men get the same kinda responses.

Your response is what I'd be examining, and I have cuz I've been there too, man. Its the result of an ingrained fear, because we've been brainwashed to believe that unless we were born biologically "correct", we're not "real (insert gender here)".

Its all about your personal perception bro. Took me a while but it's like bronx said, I am a man. They can say/think what they want, because I (now) know who I am. So if/when I hear crap like that, I don't assume it because they're lookin' beneath some kinda veneer - its just people being the typical snotwads they can be. Don't live in fear bro. People really only see what WE want them too... and if they can, BFD! Capeche`?

Benz

Thanks, Benz! I'm glad you didn't let being new stop you from speaking up. Welcome!!

You're right, my response to the kid is probably more of the problem than anything he did. It isn't like this is crushing me. I just vent a lot on here because it's the only place where people understand. My confidence could always be improved, but I'm far from being shy and hiding. In situations like this it is important to notice people's perceptions. They give you good feedback about how you look.

Now, I'm not freaking out. I'm fine. However, I know for a fact that I do get read as female on campus. My voice has dropped into the unambiguously male range, so when I open my mouth people usually revise that perception. It's funny because things kind of worked the opposite way 6 months ago, people would be unsure about my gender and then would decide I was female after I talked.

Anyway... the jury is out on whether the kid thought I was male or female. I do, however, have reasonable evidence that other kids perceive me as female at times. Like I said, it isn't like I never pass on campus...just much less often than in other parts of town. I pass with older adults. I'm running an experiment right now where we have older adults (so 65 and older) coming in. The last older guy that came in definitely read me as male. After I told him my name he says "Ha! That's my lawyer's name. He spells it differently though." He said a lot of other stuff that suggested he thought I was a "nice young man". My passing problems are mainly with the 20-something crowd.

My biggest concerns are being consistent with my gender presentation. This is kind of a professional concern. I'm teaching classes in the fall. It undermines my "classroom presence" if I am not getting read as male most of the time. I think being on T for 4.5 more months will help a lot in that regard.

Yesterday I realized that there is still a lot to being a man that I don't know. When I was getting my hair cut the lady asked me what to do with my sideburns. I'm not used to having sideburns, so I didn't really know what to say. I was all like "just even them up". I figured that was a good thing to say.

[Guest Benzrathe]

I pass with older adults. I'm running an experiment right now where we have older adults (so 65 and older) coming in. The last older guy that came in definitely read me as male. After I told him my name he says "Ha! That's my lawyer's name. He spells it differently though." He said a lot of other stuff that suggested he thought I was a "nice young man". My passing problems are mainly with the 20-something crowd.

My biggest concerns are being consistent with my gender presentation. This is kind of a professional concern. I'm teaching classes in the fall. It undermines my "classroom presence" if I am not getting read as male most of the time. I think being on T for 4.5 more months will help a lot in that regard.

Yeah the older generation come from a time period when you were what you look like. One of the reasons they're so dear to me. Today's folks are so use to gender ambiguity, that they've been trained to question appearances. Mostly (IMHO) its due to all the radical dykes who looked male but screamed at anyone who called them "sir". LOL Good times..... *snickers*

I always delighted in my "sirs" though, was like hearin' your native tongue while living in a foreign land. =]

Yesterday I realized that there is still a lot to being a man that I don't know. When I was getting my hair cut the lady asked me what to do with my sideburns. I'm not used to having sideburns, so I didn't really know what to say. I was all like "just even them up". I figured that was a good thing to say.

Depends on the look you're goin' for. Should figure that out in advance, so you can issue requests with a casual confidence. But I know what you mean. A lot of finding landmines while yer steppin' in this journey. =]

I like my side burns below my ear at my jaw line, because I kinda tailor them toward my goatee. Just waitin' for my stache to thicken to complete the look. But that's just me.

Thanks for the welcome btw. *nods*

Benz

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Depends on the look you're goin' for. Should figure that out in advance, so you can issue requests with a casual confidence. But I know what you mean. A lot of finding landmines while yer steppin' in this journey. =]

I guess what was so surprising about my sideburn experience was that this was the first time that I have gone for a haircut and had enough hair there to be noticeable. I'd been growing them out to see how much there was. It sounds like I'd been keeping them just about the length you keep yours.

I can just about grow a little goatee. I keep telling myself it is patchy, but looking at some less hairy cisgender guys, it really isn't all that patchy. I guess I have high standards because I am so hairy elsewhere. I've got so much leg hair that I pass like 100% of the time when I am wearing shorts. ...so that's a good thing.

Benz, it sounds like you've been out on the journey for a while. Any advice you can offer for those of us just starting out is greatly appreciated!

[Guest Benzrathe]

I guess what was so surprising about my sideburn experience was that this was the first time that I have gone for a haircut and had enough hair there to be noticeable. I'd been growing them out to see how much there was. It sounds like I'd been keeping them just about the length you keep yours.

I can just about grow a little goatee. I keep telling myself it is patchy, but looking at some less hairy cisgender guys, it really isn't all that patchy. I guess I have high standards because I am so hairy elsewhere. I've got so much leg hair that I pass like 100% of the time when I am wearing shorts. ...so that's a good thing.

Benz, it sounds like you've been out on the journey for a while. Any advice you can offer for those of us just starting out is greatly appreciated!

Not sure I've been on it any longer than most, but sure.

I envy yer body hair. The Native American parts of my ancestry kinda curtails mine a fair bit. Leaves me lookin' younger than i'd like. But better'n older, I reckon. =]

And patchy is in, if yer into the grunge look.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Not sure I've been on it any longer than most, but sure.

I envy yer body hair. The Native American parts of my ancestry kinda curtails mine a fair bit. Leaves me lookin' younger than i'd like. But better'n older, I reckon. =]

And patchy is in, if yer into the grunge look.

If you've been on T for more than 6 months, you are way ahead of me. I wasn't in the lesbian community before I transitioned. I've always been kind of off in left field, by myself. It's good to get to know some kindred spirits.

Perhaps we could arrange a hair follicle transplant.

I have some Native American ancestry, but they are buried under layer upon layer of English, Scottish, Irish, and Welsh. My great, great grandmother was Cherokee.

[Guest Martin]

According to my voice recordings, my voice stopped changing about twenty weeks after starting T. That's about four and a half months. Of course, everyone's experience is different, and your voice might still drop.

I just looked over some of my old pictures. My face has definitely masculized over the years of T. These changes did not finish after the first year of T - or even the first three. I'm hoping they'll continue to develop even now (four plus years later). Be patient - the changes will come.

[Guest Little Sara]

8 years after "starting T", my voice is still pretty androgynous. (from 16 to 24)

I put "starting T" in quotes because it wasn't my decision to have testes there.

My voice might have dropped an octave, from soprano to alto, or at worst, contr-alto. This *can* pass as male, but it can just as well pass as female, cause it's never brought me problems, and I never sought to modify my voice in any way.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

According to my voice recordings, my voice stopped changing about twenty weeks after starting T. That's about four and a half months. Of course, everyone's experience is different, and your voice might still drop.

I just looked over some of my old pictures. My face has definitely masculized over the years of T. These changes did not finish after the first year of T - or even the first three. I'm hoping they'll continue to develop even now (four plus years later). Be patient - the changes will come.

My voice didn't even really start to drop until I'd been on T for about 2 months. It didn't start becoming noticeable to people who weren't expecting it until 4 months. It seems like voice was the first thing to change for most people, but for me it took a little longer. Even now, it doesn't seem to have leveled out. I still crack and squeak some.

8 years after "starting T", my voice is still pretty androgynous. (from 16 to 24)

I put "starting T" in quotes because it wasn't my decision to have testes there.

My voice might have dropped an octave, from soprano to alto, or at worst, contr-alto. This *can* pass as male, but it can just as well pass as female, cause it's never brought me problems, and I never sought to modify my voice in any way.

You have an amusing way of phrasing things. The absence of testes wasn't my decision either!

In my case, I am really surprised my voice isn't deeper than it is. It was never particularly high pitched for a female, I was well in the alto range pre-T. I've heard people who started out with much higher pitched voices than me get a lot more change. It's kind of weird. However, listening to recordings, I think my perception of my own voice isn't all that accurate. It sounds deeper on recordings than it sounds when I'm listening to myself...if that makes sense.

[Guest Pól_Eire]

My voice didn't even really start to drop until I'd been on T for about 2 months. It didn't start becoming noticeable to people who weren't expecting it until 4 months. It seems like voice was the first thing to change for most people, but for me it took a little longer. Even now, it doesn't seem to have leveled out. I still crack and squeak some.

You have an amusing way of phrasing things. The absence of testes wasn't my decision either!

In my case, I am really surprised my voice isn't deeper than it is. It was never particularly high pitched for a female, I was well in the alto range pre-T. I've heard people who started out with much higher pitched voices than me get a lot more change. It's kind of weird. However, listening to recordings, I think my perception of my own voice isn't all that accurate. It sounds deeper on recordings than it sounds when I'm listening to myself...if that makes sense.

That makes a lot of sense. Your own voice always sounds different to you because you hear it mostly through a solid medium (your bones and flesh that come between your voice box and your inner ear), and other people only hear it through a gaseous medium (air). That's why when you hear yourself on a recording, you always sound different. When you're listening to the recording, you're hearing your voice through air only.

-Pól

[Guest Pól_Eire]

Also, this might be useful in talking to a barber -- it doesn't have anything about sideburns, but it has good examples of how to explain what you want so that you sound like you know what you're talking about when you go in.

What to Say to a Barber

-Pól

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Also, this might be useful in talking to a barber -- it doesn't have anything about sideburns, but it has good examples of how to explain what you want so that you sound like you know what you're talking about when you go in.

What to Say to a Barber

-Pól

Thanks! That looks like it'll be quite useful.

[Guest April63]

I don't think a buzz cut is a bad idea. It's stereotypically for lesbians, because it's popular among guys. Maybe you should spike it a little.

Facial hair would help. How's that coming? Sideburns too.

Do you use lotion? If you do, I would cut down on it a little.

Cologne? That could help.

As for your voice, it doesn't need to be super deep. Just be loud and demanding. That's pretty guyish.

April

[Guest Zajabr]

I'm not really seeing, on the visual front, how someone could say you're female. o: Maybe a little spiking would look cool, though. xD

Love,

Jack

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Lot of response - good ones too.

I can only say, it would look good if you had a five oclock shadow - guys without that dark shading seem adolescent, so you are reading too young. Unfortunately i have no idea how you could accomplish that.

Then I think the idea of slightly spiking your hair is good. I would not buzz cut. It would make your face look very round.

What can you do to take people's eyes off your face in general? Bright shirts maybe - Hiwaiian?. Also, shades really change the focus somehow.

Ains - you DO look good - hang in there!

Lizzy

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Ha ha! April, I don't use much face lotion. That one closeup pic was taken when I hadn't been on T all that long. Pre-T dudes have the purty skin. My skin's a lot rougher looking now.

Lizzy and April, I'm trying to push out the facial hair as fast as I can. I've got a little 5 o'clock shadow on my upper lip. That comes in pretty thick. I've got reasonable sideburns, but not all that thick yet. Believe me, if I don't shave for a week, the incidence of "ma'am" drops WAY down. The thing is, I often end up shaving a couple of times a week. When I have experiment participants, I try to look conservative and clean cut. My preferred look is more grunge, but that doesn't work when you have older adults coming in. They get all skeeved out if you look too grungy.

I know what would take people's eyes off my face. I just won't wear a shirt. Of course, my scars will give me away then. I bet people won't call me ma'am though. If only I could remove the hair that grows on my belly and transfer it to my face. I'd be all set.

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora Anisley,

Here you are trying to sprout facial hair - and for most of the morning I was plucking mine out... how ironic...

Here's a prediction=This time next year all your pronoun troubles will be a thing of the past...And you will no doubt see the funny side of what would have been a weird but wonderful rollercoaster ride of self acceptance and discovery...

Will you sport a beard when facial hair permits?

BTW Anisley..I must say, you've come a long way since we first met...

Metta Jendar

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Kia Ora Anisley,

Here you are trying to sprout facial hair - and for most of the morning I was plucking mine out... how ironic...

Here's a prediction=This time next year all your pronoun troubles will be a thing of the past...And you will no doubt see the funny side of what would have been a weird but wonderful rollercoaster ride of self acceptance and discovery...

Will you sport a beard when facial hair permits?

BTW Anisley..I must say, you've come a long way since we first met...

Metta Jendar

Hi, Jendar!

It is funny how MTF's and FTM's have opposite aspirations where facial hair is concerned! Our struggles have a similar character, but the specific details differ.

I think my pronoun problems will be a thing of the past within a year. Even now, it isn't so bad. I'm just going through a rough patch at school. It's hard to decide who needs to know what. I'm getting really tired of having specific "talks" with people.

This really has been a journey of self-discovery. I never thought I'd ever be this "whole" or this comfortable with myself.

I probably will experiment with beards once I can grow a good one. It's something I've always wanted to do, but for obvious reasons never could.

I definitely have come a long way. A lot of it is due to meeting people here. Your posts have always been thought provoking. I think you have a sense of peace that I aspire to have myself someday. I'm not terribly religious or spiritual, but I feel like Buddhism has a lot of general principles that can inform and enrich even the most cold, rational man. In fact, there is a certain indisputable rationality to a lot of Buddhist ideas.

Ainsley

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora Anisley,

Still not 'passing'? Try some laxatives They will definiately make you 'pass'

By not taking life 'too' seriously-can make ones problems seem not so bad

Metta Jendar

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Kia Ora Anisley,

Still not 'passing'? Try some laxatives They will definiately make you 'pass'

By not taking life 'too' seriously-can make ones problems seem not so bad

Metta Jendar

LOL!

[Guest Seth]

Now I am going to go be grouchy up in my office. As soon as I can squeeze out enough facial hair, I am definitely growing a beard.

I actually just shaved off all my facial hair. The bead hairs were getting caught in my shirt collars. Makin' me angered.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I actually just shaved off all my facial hair. The bead hairs were getting caught in my shirt collars. Makin' me angered.

LOL! "...makin' me angered"

I'm fuzzy right now. School's "out" for summer, so I'm lazy with the shaving. I put "out" in quotations because I still have to work, even when there aren't classes.

[Guest Martin]

I still have the rest of this week and then finals week to go. This includes an essay do tomorrow. I should probably work on that rather than posting on here. But somehow, words come easier here.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I still have the rest of this week and then finals week to go. This includes an essay do tomorrow. I should probably work on that rather than posting on here. But somehow, words come easier here.

I've had that experience before! Good luck on your finals. I'm sure you'll emerge triumphant!

I'm supposed to be writing a paper, but not for a class.