Trans debate and work colleagues

[Emma De]

I had a very interesting discussion with two women at my work today. Before I continue I should say that I am not 'out' at work.

They expressed concerns over trans women being women and that for them trans women are men. Sorry, it hurt me as well. I was interested to hear their concerns and issues with female only spaces and trans women and recognition of them. I have always believed that understanding differing views helps me moving forward in discussions and debates.

 

So why post here?

 

Well I would be interested to hear how others cope with this level of 'hate' or 'anti' trans feeling from colleagues at work. As a 'trans women in waiting' this experiences has made me question my ability to come out at work if these normally chatty and happy women are so anti the idea, I just feel I must have been naïve about the true response I will get when I come out.

What discussion and counter comment would I make, I don't want this to become a strong aggressive counter to them, but feel that as a community having a 'rehearsed' answer to these concerns would give me confidence and strength to face these difficulties. Many thanks for reading, and I hope my post doesn't hurt and make anyone feel down. my intenion is to be better prepared in future.

[Abigail Eleanor]

I am glad that you posted this.  I am in quite a similar situation at my workplace. I believe based on how the people here talk that I would be very much unwelcome if I revealed myself. (major euphemism in that last sentence)

 

Sometimes I wonder if their views would change if they had personal acquaintance or experience with a trans person. I am terrified to be the Guinea pig to run this experiment at this workplace but I think it needs to be done.  

 

(For what it is worth I am not planning to make any sort of announcement or send out an email. I have been just slowly changing in appearance and behavior and I know there will come a point at which someone will have to say something and I'm just going to let the subject arise organically. This could be wildly insane or it could be my best way accomplishing a coming out.)

 

I am very interested for other people to chime in and find out more insights into this.

[Marcie Jensen]

This is sad, but true. TBH, the term "female only spaces" is, IMHO, discriminatory and, sorry I don't mean to offend anyone, bigoted. For example, imagine the uproar if the roles were reversed and the term "male only spaces" was used instead. In fact, it evokes in me the emotions--none of them good--as the pictures of water fountains, restaurants and businesses with the signs "whites only" from the American South do. There is no moral difference.

 

I don't know what the laws in the UK are like, but in the US, these ladies' talk would most likely be grounds for an HR complaint due to hostile work environment.

[Emma De]

6 hours ago, Abigail Eleanor said:

I have been just slowly changing in appearance and behavior and I know there will come a point at which someone will have to say something and I'm just going to let the subject arise organically.

This is similar to me, but I am quite certain that there must be a better way. I mentioned in a recent post that I don't feel brave enough to do it yet.

[Emma De]

5 hours ago, Marcie Jensen said:

I don't know what the laws in the UK are like, but in the US, these ladies' talk would most likely be grounds for an HR complaint due to hostile work environment.

Oh that is true, but I did say be honest say what you think. Open discussion is important, even if it hurt me so much. I don't believe they are extreme people. I have known one of them for ten plus years. Outspoken, yes but not a horrible person. I almost said something about me, be realised that environment and openness was 100% the wrong place for it.
I feel this is my first true experience of what lays ahead. This is why I am in awe of those who have travelled this path before me and are strong and more resilient than I am.

[KathyLauren]

8 hours ago, Emma De said:

for them trans women are men

 

This is the fundamental error at the root of those discussions.  The people do not have access to reliable, accurate information, so they rely on media echo-chambers.  I don't know how you deal with it once the ignorance is entrenched that far.

 

My solution is to work on building people's acceptance by default.  In my small, rural, rednecky community, population maybe 200, I am the only out trans person.  Everyone knows about me.  The ones who have met me have nothing to complain about.  They know I don't attack anyone in women's washrooms. 

 

I am retired, but I came out while I was a volunteer firefighter, which is like a workplace.  Shortly after I came out (like only a week or two later), they issued new uniforms.  I went to try mine on, and of course, I went to the women's washroom.  I did get one surprised look, but no one said anything. 

 

In my favour, the law was quite clear here that "volunteer public service organizations" were covered by equality legislation that protected me in the fire department.  I feel for those who do not have the protection of equality laws.

 

So, when the people in this community hear an echo chamber of lies about trans people, they are more inclined to question it: "Well, Kathy is trans, and she's okay."

[Emma De]

On 1/20/2023 at 1:06 AM, KathyLauren said:

So, when the people in this community hear an echo chamber of lies about trans people, they are more inclined to question it: "Well, Kathy is trans, and she's okay."

This seems to be the key. We have to be role models and teach people what it is really about. The difficulty is that I am a mental mess and struggle to cope. That is why rehearsing the discussions through this might help. I feel that at the moment it seems a misunderstanding about gender dysphoria. I don't choose this, who would. The pain and hurt of not being the real me is so tough.

I don't feel this for other people, I don't think of others sexually. I just need to be and understand myself. I have hidden it for so long but just can't keep lying. My gender is the question, the problem. I guess they had their beliefs and feelings and I will have to challenge them that I am not going to hurt them. I just need to be me. I just feel that lacks the articulate meaning I feel. Words fail me when I need them most.

I guess they are scared that their worst fear and imagination is that predatory males will take advantage of them. While I feel the most vunerable and have never hurt anyone in my life and could never live with myself if I did. Therefore the fear of offending them makes me feel guilt on top of my guilt for not being real.
Oh this is so tough, and this whole discussion just started to make me bury myself further.

[Ivy]

5 hours ago, Emma De said:

I guess they are scared that their worst fear and imagination is that predatory males will take advantage of them.

This is what people are being told.  The truth is they're way more likely to be harmed by a cis-guy.

[Emma De]

39 minutes ago, Ivy said:

This is what people are being told.  The truth is they're way more likely to be harmed by a cis-guy.

I have found it hard to stop thinking about what I could and should have said to them. They really didn't seem to understand that trans is gender based.

[stveee]

At my workplace which is a large blue chip corporation at a big city ironically I am "protected" by the the fact people generally do not want to mess up their career which they have outstanding pay and bennies over work drama.

I also did not make any email or formal announcement since I am at the bottom of the totem. I came out to my immediate boss, who has actually been quite supportive, I have been reliable for them over a number of years.

The first person you talk to is HR. Be aware of the actual policies they espouse. Most companies want things to run smoothly without any drama or getting in the way of business. HR should be supportive professionally, and your boss should only be interested in creating a productive environment for everyone, which includes use of proper pronouns and gender.

I did rely on word of mouth quite a bit as I only had one on ones with coworkers (out of a couple hundred) I considered work friends. But of course people will resist or claim ignorance, even after clearly my appearance has feminized and my name changed, so I find still have to have one on ones to after a year of being out so they at least use my name. Just when I think I am "done with coming out", someone uses my deadname and it seems like it's never ending and I am at 1 month again.

It's scary but generally, it's a matter of courage, sincerity and the right time and place to out yourself.

I still feel a little cautious about the restroom but have been using the women's for quite awhile, but still get paranoid someone is going to create drama over it even though there's never been any problem. I was also the first trans here. 

The bottom line is we gotta do what we gotta do and those with a problem with bathrooms need to take it up with the company, but some will take it out on us. I refuse to feel intimidated or fear for my job in exercising my rights in which I am hurting no one because I believe in the end I will be okay, but it's up to me to step up and defend myself. 

Some women do not care, per se, but most usually still exit the restroom when they realize I am in there. So there is tolerance without actual acceptance, but I guess it's a compromise.

Generally I am apt to tolerate or let things slide at work and I tend not to socialize a lot here. If a person has their mind made up we don't exist, it's rare they will change anyway. And I am just here to do the job and get my money. I worry about authenticity sometimes but really only a few people actually care. We don't get together at the tavern after hours or anything.  

You have to feel out your own particular situation and what you are willing to live with, sometimes on a daily basis.

[Betty K]

I don't know if this argument would help since I've never used it before, but it seems to me that trans women wanting access to women's bathrooms are something like refugees seeking asylum. Similar fears surround us in the minds of those who inhabit the spaces we are trying to access. To me, the only possible approach in both cases is an appeal to kindness. Trans women have generally been harmed by the patriarchy equally as much as cis women. We suffer sexual violence at even higher rates than they do. If they can at least see that we are under threat from the same forces that they are, then it us up to them if they want to exercise kindness or give into fear. If they choose fear, maybe it's worth asking them what they are basing it on. Since there seem to be no statistics demonstrating an increase in sexual assaults in women's bathrooms when laws around bathroom access are changed, it can only be fear of the unknown. The only way to combat that is representation. Be yourself. Be the best version of yourself you can be. I bet in time those same women will realise you're no threat at all, and that might open up a little space in their hearts to start accepting other trans women too.

 

Incidentally, I read the most heartwarming thing today. In Shon Faye's book The Transgender Issue: An Argument for Justice she writes of "a 2018 letter, signed by thousands of Irish feminists, rebuking a delegation of British anti-trans feminists who planned to host a debate on trans rights in Dublin". It went like this:

 

Quote

We, the signatories of this letter, organise hand in hand with our trans sisters. Together, cis and trans, we are Irish feminism. Trans women are our sisters; their struggles are ours, our struggles are theirs. They were our sisters before any state-issued certification said so and will always be no matter what any legislation says now or in the future.

 

Isn't that beautiful? I still believe most women accept us. I know in my everyday life I have yet to meet a vocal transphobe.

[Emma De]

@stveee I applaud and acknowledge you are so much braver than I am and your approach is amazing. I hope acceptance and friendship follows with your colleagues.

 

For me I have a real problem with my own acceptance of my self worth and value. I have been hiding myself for so long that I no longer value myself. If I am not strong enough to be my true self, then how can I value myself. The fear and lack of courage to be myself to others annoys me and stops me. I know I have to overcome this. I know I am making myself ill by not being myself, yet I still am stuck.
I came out to my wife two years ago, she is amazing and I love her so much. I came out to my parents late last year. Good response but no real contact since and I feel they hope it will quietly go away. It won't the voice inside is screaming at me to go further.
Then a really tough week in every way and the conversation I outlined here has just confused me further. It helped me realise that others will be against me, but I know I have to be me. Just hiding me this long will take a long time to uncover me and let myself live and eventually find joy and happiness again.

[Emma De]

@Betty K Beautiful and so positive. Thankyou for sharing. 😭
I will try to be me.

I will try to be brave.

I will try to be stronger.

I will try to be the best me I can be.
I will try not to find another excuse to put things off.

I will try to join the community.

I will try to find friends who understand.

I will try to listen to the voices I respect.

I will try to voice my beliefs and explain that others have nothing to fear.

I will try to love more and fear less.

I will  try to be Proud of who I am.

I will try.

[Emma De]

Thank you @Katie23 you example is inspiring. The knock that the conversation gave me was like a stomach blow. I didn't post all of the chat as it was so negative. I am reading these replies and taking the positives.
I expect that given another few weeks I will come up with my replies to their comments. I just wonder what they would have said if they knew I was 'one of those trans people'. 

[Betty K]

@Emma De Just remember there is no judgement at all around how fast or slow you take this process. I’m sure we can all relate to your fears and your struggle to love yourself — I know I can. But know too that, if you’re anything like me, your self-esteem and self-compassion will increase dramatically the further you go on this journey. 

 

You have it hard in England; the level of institutionalised transphobia there is astonishing. I don’t envy you at all. But for every visible trans person the chance of combatting that becomes greater. 

 

Good luck! For me, my social transition has been the most challenging, momentous and wonderful time of my life. Scary too. But so full of joy. Once you get a taste of that joy, I suspect, you will not want to turn back.

[Emma De]

21 hours ago, Betty K said:

@Emma De Just remember there is no judgement at all around how fast or slow you take this process. I’m sure we can all relate to your fears and your struggle to love yourself — I know I can. But know too that, if you’re anything like me, your self-esteem and self-compassion will increase dramatically the further you go on this journey. 

 

You have it hard in England; the level of institutionalised transphobia there is astonishing. I don’t envy you at all. But for every visible trans person the chance of combatting that becomes greater. 

 

Good luck! For me, my social transition has been the most challenging, momentous and wonderful time of my life. Scary too. But so full of joy. Once you get a taste of that joy, I suspect, you will not want to turn back.

@Betty K So much of what you say is spot on and correct. I know it will be better in the end, the issue is I have been so ill recently, that getting better and being well is the aim. Also family issues are terrible. So once these are resolved, then I can focus on me and my gender. Until then, survival, health and family are the priority.
The impact on the comments from others didn't surprise me but did make me realise how hard it will be to cope with if I don't consider what I would say a little more. Thanks for you support, I need it. 

[Betty K]

5 hours ago, Emma De said:

So once these are resolved, then I can focus on me and my gender.

 

Yes, it is crucial that you have a strong basis on which to build your transition. I’m sure you’ll know when the time is right, and you’ll simply take the plunge. Your situation does not have to be perfect for that to happen, but it’s best if you are in good physical and mental health to weather the inevitable challenges.

[Emma De]

21 hours ago, Betty K said:

but it’s best if you are in good physical and mental health to weather the inevitable challenges.

The storms, thunder and lightning happen in all life, but when you are out you get more impact from it.

[Jupiter]

I've got this challange coming up, but I suspect my workplace is a lot nicer than yours.

 

I see you are in the UK, so from a legal POV they like it or lump it, and to put in any blockers to you using those spaces would be a nightmare for them and HR.   They would have to prove its OK to stop you, ie 'proportionate means of achieving a legitimate claim' which to date, to my recollection, have all been done in a case by case basis via the courts.

 

With the way you state it, it sounds like classic Terf/GC speech like those women have been spending too much time on twitter or attending FiLiA conferences, and have all the catchwords but don't know the implications or legal groundwork of which they speak.

 

Realistacally speaking, the World outside your door and your work environment is different, there are so many dynamics at play and these women may completely change their tune when an actual trans women pops up right in front of them and they see we are not as made out to be by the media and personalities that make hating trans people their entire identity.

 

In my situation I've been here for 5+ years, they know me as male, and I came out at Xmas but am currently presenting NB or femme depending on how I'm feeliing (or how my face is doing, electrolysis ongoing).  I've basically told them I will be using the mens whilst I'm pre-HRT, but if I'm presenting femme and eg wearing a dress etc I'll use the womens.  I really resepct the women I work with and will be going to them in some fashion to check with them that it's OK for me to do so (half of them are OK with it already, I've even been offered a chaperone in case I was nervous).  This has the added benefit of finding out who's on the fence or a secret GC.

 

You can't not use the toilet, and whats more likely to happen is those 'ladies' that vocally object will find themselves being side eyed at the very least by their colleagues...  The law is on your side, people are generally good on the inside.

 

I've just this morning been invited to a women's only night out at the end of the month, and I knew this would happen but I'm bricking it.  When you come out-out, you may find like I did you get emails in support and offering help.

[Robin]

On 1/20/2023 at 1:06 AM, KathyLauren said:

So, when the people in this community hear an echo chamber of lies about trans people, they are more inclined to question it: "Well, Kathy is trans, and she's okay."

 

I believe that there is a lot of truth in this statement.  The vast majority of people have probably never knowingly encountered a trans person.  

 

I have known people that felt intimidated by the thought of working with someone of a different race or religion.  When the situation actually arises, there is usually no problem, as most people have the social skills to naturally get along in a group environment.  I know that there are some that just have to rock the boat, but the majority of people want to be liked and don't want any hassle.

 

Robin.

[Emma De]

On 3/8/2023 at 12:36 PM, Jupiter said:

 

 

Realistacally speaking, the World outside your door and your work environment is different, there are so many dynamics at play and these women may completely change their tune when an actual trans women pops up right in front of them and they see we are not as made out to be by the media and personalities that make hating trans people their entire identity.

 

, people are generally good on the inside.

 

I've just this morning been invited to a women's only night out at the end of the month, and I knew this would happen but I'm bricking it.  When you come out-out, you may find like I did you get emails in support and offering help.

@Jupiter Thank you for your comments I agree with it all. I stand in awe of your ability to stand up. I try and will one day. I use a disabled toilet to avoid the mens. I have too much going on in my whole life to make the next step, but I am making gradual progress. I do believe I would get support and that most people are good.
My surprise was that conversations were so anti, tough and disparaging when they felt they could be open. It has made me fear their true thoughts and ideas. They spoke while not knowing who I really am and who I am when not at work. It was educating, but certainly pushed me backwards by a long way. I respect those who are braver than me and thank you and applaud you for making the path more possible for my future.

[Emma De]

On 3/8/2023 at 5:57 AM, Robin said:

 

I know that there are some that just have to rock the boat, but the majority of people want to be liked and don't want any hassle.

 

Thank you @Robin
I don't want to rock the boat. I just want to be me. I understand your meaning that people complain and say things but when real life brings things up they are more accepting.

Unfortunately I am left hiding myself and it is eating me up from the inside. It isn't sustainable and I need to find a way to move forward. 
 

I am also reading into actions and attitudes from others and fearing the worst. I appreciate the idea of looking at the next step and not putting negatives on what hasn't actually happened. One day....

[Jupiter]

19 hours ago, Emma De said:

@Jupiter Thank you for your comments I agree with it all. I stand in awe of your ability to stand up. I try and will one day. I use a disabled toilet to avoid the mens. I have too much going on in my whole life to make the next step, but I am making gradual progress. I do believe I would get support and that most people are good.
My surprise was that conversations were so anti, tough and disparaging when they felt they could be open. It has made me fear their true thoughts and ideas. They spoke while not knowing who I really am and who I am when not at work. It was educating, but certainly pushed me backwards by a long way. I respect those who are braver than me and thank you and applaud you for making the path more possible for my future.

 

It helps I'm late 40's, so age has made me tough and I'm also from the 'alternative/goth' scene so I've been insulted, bullied and otherwise hassled since I was a kid and that helps with a thicker skin.  

With work I'm a part of the staff LGBTQ+ network, several EDI groups and have supportive managers, and that helps enormously to being able to stand up as my true self.  It's not all plain sailing and it took me almost 7 years to come out to these people that, apart from a few misguided comments, haven't given me cause for concern so don't judge yourself on how far down the path you are.

Some of people I did have worries about now have their pronouns in their email sigs, and several are attending trans awareness training, so people can be helped with any ignorance or issues of understanding they might have.   We do have actual verified terfs/GCs at my work but we do also have a staff number of over 6k (perhaps higher), so I'm aware that some you just can't get around but I'd wager there are more silent but supportive people around you than you imagine.   

 

Take your time, play it your way and don't let fear dictate how you live.  I did that for far too long and its a big regret.

[Emma De]

20 hours ago, Jupiter said:

Some of people I did have worries about now have their pronouns in their email sigs, and several are attending trans awareness training, so people can be helped with any ignorance or issues of understanding they might have.   We do have actual verified terfs/GCs at my work but we do also have a staff number of over 6k (perhaps higher), so I'm aware that some you just can't get around but I'd wager there are more silent but supportive people around you than you imagine.   

 

Take your time, play it your way and don't let fear dictate how you live.  I did that for far too long and its a big regret.

It sounds as if your work is far more empathetic and caring. My work runs on fear and getting rid of people who don't follow their aims. This is new and has seen a lot of the best staff leave. I am trying to fight it from the inside, but my own health and well being is a mess. Maybe change requires a change of environment?
I need to find firm foundations and that is just not possible at the moment. Someone else said similar in a reply. I just fear that while struggling with gender dysphoria and other issues I won't find firm footing or even recognise them if I find them. 
I will keep reading and trying to be me when I can. 
Thank you for taking the time to reply. It helps so much and means so much as I feel so alone. Thanks

[JoniSteph]

@Emma De seems to me you need someone close as a support as you don't seem to getting it from your wife or family.  A friend that you can shoulder your feelings and wants but someone to give you feedback and as support for you. Typically this would be your wife.

A therapist or gender therapist would be best to work through the lack of confidence in what you want, how to handle various situations as they come about, setting some goals for yourself and how to meet them. However small as any of these may be for you.

This is some of the things that I did to get myself on the road to Transition to be the woman I am today.

 

Big Canadian Hug

 

JoniSteph