Donald Trump Links Middle East War to Trans Folk In a Social Media Post

[Carolyn Marie]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F722yQwXIAAqpX3?format=jpg&name=medium 

 

Par for the course.  This will be repeated and amplified ad nauseum in the next several days.  We are, along with Democrats apparently, the root of all evil in the world.  I hadn't realized that the Palestinians were on the march all the way to America.

 

The haters have found their ultimate nemesis.  The target has been, and will continue to be, on our backs.

 

Carolyn Marie

[Ivy]

 

The Quote:

"As we perpetually indoctrinate our children with weakness, feminize our boys, attack masculine men, glorify trans insanity, etc. just understand that one day the savages you see brutally attacking innocent civilians in the streets of Israel will be on your front door & you and your loved ones will have ZERO capability of defending themselves. That's the future the
left is creating for you."

 

Apparently this person doesn't realize that a lot of queer people are actually veterans.   But now that I think about it, as a draft dodger he wouldn't really understand this.

[KathyLauren]

We are not only veterans, in civilized countries trans and queer people are actively-serving members.  So if the war comes to these shores, trans people will defend even the likes of him.

[Vidanjali]

35 minutes ago, Ivy said:

 

The Quote:

"As we perpetually indoctrinate our children with weakness, feminize our boys, attack masculine men, glorify trans insanity, etc. just understand that one day the savages you see brutally attacking innocent civilians in the streets of Israel will be on your front door & you and your loved ones will have ZERO capability of defending themselves. That's the future the
left is creating for you."

[VickySGV]

I will accept the last statement on that linked item there.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

Well... a bit of falsehood mixed with a bit of truth sure makes a mess. 

 

I agree with him in part - some forces DO indoctrinate our kids with weakness and disarmament, attack masculinity, and we often don't do well with raising our boys. 

 

However, I disagree with the rest.  The "savages" on the streets of Israel won't be the same as the savages on the streets here.  The savages here look and act quite different, and have different motivations.  They also aren't "coming here" because they are here already - the Antifa types are home-grown.  We had plenty of it in 2020 with the looting and burning and violence. 

 

Its weird to try to connect unrest in Israel with what's going on in the US (let alone adding in trans folks)....it just makes zero sense.  Not quite "word salad" but certainly a salad of statements. 

[Carolyn Marie]

1 hour ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

  The savages here look and act quite different, and have different motivations.  They also aren't "coming here" because they are here already - the Antifa types are home-grown.  We had plenty of it in 2020 with the looting and burning and violence. 

 

 

This part of your post offends me, AYS.  The vast majority of "Antifa types" were in the streets protesting racial discrimination, the murder of Black Americans by police officers, and racial injustice.  The people (people - not savages.  That term dehumanizes them) who broke the law and committed acts of violence should have been, and were, arrested and convicted.  To lump hundreds of thousands of peaceful protestors in with them is inaccurate, wrong and amounts to disinformation.

 

Funny that you never mention the hundreds of White supremacists, Nazi's, Nazi sympathizers, and those right wing zealots who have murdered and assaulted dozens of people in stores, Synagogues, churches, and schools, and who the FBI considers the gravest threat to America.

 

Carolyn Marie

[Davie]

2 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

"Feminize our boys" Gosh, I'm so jealous. Sounds great to me.

"

[awkward-yet-sweet]

57 minutes ago, Carolyn Marie said:

 

This part of your post offends me, AYS.  The vast majority of "Antifa types" were in the streets protesting racial discrimination, the murder of Black Americans by police officers, and racial injustice.  The people (people - not savages.  That term dehumanizes them) who broke the law and committed acts of violence should have been, and were, arrested and convicted.  To lump hundreds of thousands of peaceful protestors in with them is inaccurate, wrong and amounts to disinformation.

 

Funny that you never mention the hundreds of White supremacists, unhealthy politics's, unhealthy politics sympathizers, and those right wing zealots who have murdered and assaulted dozens of people in stores, Synagogues, churches, and schools, and who the FBI considers the gravest threat to America.

 

I was going off the "savages" word because its what's in the Trump quote, so I was referring to it.  The word itself could be pejorative.  But it can also have the definition of "brutal or vicious" which is often used to describe criminals or their behavior in the news.  Maybe we oughtn't use it, or maybe its just a gray area?

 

However, the claim that the Antifa is somehow good (and not a criminal/terrorist organization) is something that deeply offends me, because people I care about experienced personal harm.  We still feel some of the effects in our community 3 years later.  But, I can understand that you maybe didn't experience events the way we did.  I actually wrote a really long response to this, but I redacted it and I'm not going to post it because it would probably derail the topic.

 

No, I don't see the peaceful protesters as the same folks who committed crimes.  There was a clear difference between the peaceful protesters and those who showed up later to cause trouble - something my husband witnessed firsthand. 

 

I've mentioned the fascist disrupters, the Triple K clowns, and the followers of Icky Old Adolf a number of times here, when relevant topics come up - so I disagree with your assertion that I "never" mention it.  I'd rather not get into the "always" and "never," since that tends toward ad-hominem stuff.  However, in the context of what my community experienced in 2020, there's practically no comparison.  I wrote out a lengthy description of that also, but again...topic derailment.  I'm open to talking about it in another topic or in PM, or perhaps just leave it be. 

 

[Betty K]

Seth G. Jones, director of the International Security Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, says, “Antifa is a decentralized, shared ideology rather than a formal group or organized movement. […] Antifa has no central command, no definitive texts, and no clear command-and-control organizational structure. In 2020, FBI director Christopher Wray argued that Antifa is ‘more of an ideology than an organization,’ though it would be more accurate to refer to Antifa supporters as adhering to multiple ideologies.” (https://www.csis.org/blogs/examining-extremism/examining-extremism-antifa) This does not sound like a terrorist organisation to me.

 

4 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

However, in the context of what my community experienced in 2020, there's practically no comparison.

 

I'm curious what you mean by this. Do you mean that there has never been as violent a protest in your community as the one you're talking about involving people aligned with Antifa? If so, I'm sorry to hear that, but to jump from that to saying that "the savages here" (ie, in the US) are "Antifa types" makes no sense. There are plenty of folks causing a ruckus in the US, surely? The attack on the Capitol in 2021 comes to mind; if I remember correctly that involved the Proud Boys, not Antifa. Or there was that white supremacist who drove his car into a crowd of counter-protestors in Charlottesville in 2017. Or there's this from the Anti-Defamation League: "All the extremist-related murders in 2022 were committed by right-wing extremists of various kinds, who typically commit most such killings each year but only occasionally are responsible for all (the last time this occurred was 2012).  Left-wing extremists engage in violence ranging from assaults to fire-bombings and arsons, but since the late 1980s have not often targeted people with deadly violence." (https://www.adl.org/resources/report/murder-and-extremism-united-states-2022)

 

 

 

 

 

[Vidanjali]

10 hours ago, Carolyn Marie said:

 

 "Antifa types"

 

The term antifa has always struck me as funny - not in a ha ha way, though. It's a portmanteau for anti-fascist. I am clear about claiming myself as anti-fascist. Are those who are anti-antifa then pro-fascist? 

[Vidanjali]

10 hours ago, Davie said:

"

 

Just to clarify, I quoted "...Feminize our boys..." from Ivy who quoted it from Trump. I suspect Davie's comment was "Gosh... " but was accidentally typed in the quotation box. 

[Betty K]

34 minutes ago, Vidanjali said:

Are those who are anti-antifa then pro-fascist?

 

That's the old "my enemy's enemy is my friend" argument, isn't it? And that's an over-simplistic argument.

[Charlize]

26 minutes ago, Vidanjali said:

 I am clear about claiming myself as anti-fascist

That just about all i have to say.  If there are pro-fascist folks in this country, as there were as Hitler tried to take over the word, i would be ashamed if i didn't resist as i can.  I don't understand how anyone in this country can openly support the tenants of fascism and live in a democracy.  

As to the draft dodging Trumps.........  i can't find the words to describe those who strive to ferment hate for political profit

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

[Betty K]

I don't like fascists either, just in case that's in question. But I'm also a pacifist, so I'm not big on those factions of Antifa who use violence against them. I'm a believer in non-violent direct action.

[KayC]

I will try to bring this thread back to the cartoon character known as Trump - in the classic words of Bugs Bunny ... "What a maroon!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1SUfDhvUTM

 

[Vidanjali]

32 minutes ago, Betty K said:

 

That's the old "my enemy's enemy is my friend" argument, isn't it? And that's an over-simplistic argument.

 

It is indeed an overly simplistic and polarizing argument. Please allow me to elaborate and clarify that my comment was intentionally facetious to point out what in my opinion is the absurdity of labeling people or groups of people as "anitfa".

 

I draw on Ibram X Kendi's current point of view on racist vs antiracist. Consider the following statement replacing "racist & racism" with "fascist & fascism", antiracist with "antifascist", and "whiteness" with whatever normalized "power" is being aggressively asserted. He has said:

 

“We should not be saying this is who a person is. We should be saying this is what a person is doing in the moment. And the reason that’s critical is because when you study the history of racist ideas and antiracist ideas, you find the same person saying both racist and antiracist ideas in the same book, in the same speech, in the same article. So then, how would you define that person in a general sense? When we stop being so intent- and perpetrator-focused, and start being more outcome- and victim-centered, then we are able to decenter whiteness. Then we are able to put the victims of racism at the center of our analysis. It boils down to this: If one thinks the fundamental racist problem in society is “those bad people,” then one can essentially do nothing. But if racism is bad policies, then you need a collective effort to change those policies. Once we get over our denial, and once we admit the ways in which we’ve consumed racist ideas, then we next try to adopt antiracist ideas"

 

(Source: https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/54999/how-ibram-x-kendis-definition-of-antiracism-applies-to-schools)

[Betty K]

23 minutes ago, Vidanjali said:

Please allow me to elaborate and clarify that my comment was intentionally facetious to point out what in my opinion is the absurdity of labeling people or groups of people as "anitfa".

 

Yes, I suspected you were being facetious but wasn't certain. That is a brilliant argument from Ibram X Kendi. I may read more of this person.

[Betty K]

25 minutes ago, Vidanjali said:

We should not be saying this is who a person is. We should be saying this is what a person is doing in the moment.

 

So let me correct myself: I don't like fascism.

 

29 minutes ago, KayC said:

"What a maroon!"

 

Exactly.

[Ivy]

5 hours ago, Betty K said:

“Antifa is a decentralized, shared ideology rather than a formal group or organized movement.

This is my impression as well.  In a sense, "Antifa" doesn't actually exist.   But of course it is a useful label for politicians.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

4 hours ago, Betty K said:

“Antifa is a decentralized, shared ideology rather than a formal group or organized movement. […] Antifa has no central command, no definitive texts, and no clear command-and-control organizational structure. In 2020, FBI director Christopher Wray argued that Antifa is ‘more of an ideology than an organization,’ though it would be more accurate to refer to Antifa supporters as adhering to multiple ideologies.”

 

I'm curious what you mean by this. Do you mean that there has never been as violent a protest in your community as the one you're talking about involving people aligned with Antifa? 

 

The attack on the Capitol in 2021 comes to mind; if I remember correctly that involved the Proud Boys, not Antifa.

 

I think it is interesting to claim that Antifa is decentralized without noting the the right-wing troublemakers and criminals were also decentralized.  The Jan 6th rioters came from a bunch of different groups - possibly dozens.  And when they aren't working together, those groups often have conflict with each other.  They used social media to get together, and Antifa has done the same.  I disagree with the idea that the FBI is trustworthy, or that the ADL and SPLC are somehow unbiased and objective sources of honest information. 

 

In my area, there was no question about who was causing trouble - its pretty clear they claimed the Antifa label when they painted their symbols on plywood shields studded with nails.  Not just one occasion, but a couple of large riots involving hundreds of people, a few smaller incidents of group unrest, and a sporadic campaign of crime for months.  I contrast that to the one (yes, only one) incident we had with the Triple K clowns as a group - it was brief, pathetic, and they found zero sympathy for their behavior.

 

I base my perspective on what I experienced in my community - and these things were completely the opposite of the claims that the Right-oriented groups are some kind of apocalyptic threat, while the Left-oriented groups are somehow just a combination of disorganized protesters and that what happened is minor and doesn't matter.

 

50 minutes ago, Charlize said:

I don't understand how anyone in this country can openly support the tenants of fascism and live in a democracy. 

 

Well...we don't live in a democracy.  We live in a supposedly representative republic that has failed and turned into an oligarchy.  There are a bunch of people who believe changing it to a socialist, communist, or fascist system would be preferable.  Some of what happened in 2020/2021 looked a lot like 1920's Germany, with multiple factions against each other. 

 

45 minutes ago, KayC said:

I will try to bring this thread back to the cartoon character known as Trump - in the classic words of Bugs Bunny ... "What a maroon!"

 

A maroon indeed. 

[Betty K]

7 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I think it is interesting to claim that Antifa is decentralized without noting the the right-wing troublemakers and criminals were also decentralized.

But I’m not claiming anyone is a terrorist organisation. W/r/t the Jan 6th rioters my point was purely that there are other troublemakers besides Antifa.

 

7 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I base my perspective on what I experienced in my community

And from that you can accurately draw conclusions about your community. But when you try to apply those conclusions to the whole of the country you are citing anecdotal evidence out of context. Not a compelling argument.

 

[Betty K]

11 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I disagree with the idea that the FBI is trustworthy, or that the ADL and SPLC are somehow unbiased and objective sources of honest information. 

And this bit. If you have better sources could you share them? Clearly no source of information is completely unbiased, and we each have to try to factor in biases when we review information. But to go from that to distrusting all sources in favour of anecdotal evidence and unfounded opinion is a recipe for societal meltdown imho.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

14 minutes ago, Betty K said:

And this bit. If you have better sources could you share them? Clearly no source of information is completely unbiased, and we each have to try to factor in biases when we review information. But to go from that to distrusting all sources in favour of anecdotal evidence and unfounded opinion is a recipe for societal meltdown imho.

 

I consider eye witnesses to be far more reliable than what passes for "news" reporting.  In fact, eye witnesses and word of mouth is about the only reliable information we can get in the USA.  When most major networks are leftist mouthpieces, FOX is an establishment Republican mouthpiece, and the local news just wants to put out puff pieces about kids taking their 4H critters to the fair, there's not much content worth looking at.  Just an American version of Pravda. At this point, I wouldn't believe them if they told me water was wet. 

 

You're right to say that when we can't trust anything, its a recipe for social meltdown.  Because that's what we've had for a while now - nearly universal deceit.  I don't trust anything that speaks for power - not politicians or media, not major corporations or large nonprofits.  You can glean some information from among the weeds, but the complete picture is something you piece together. 

 

The filth of the FBI's founder, J. Edgar Hoover, is well documented.  Find a biography in your library to check out the sin that organization was born in.  The murders and Constitutional violations the FBI has committed for decades are common knowledge.  Examples from the 90's, such as at Waco and Ruby Ridge, are practically legend.  And their tradition continues.   

 

Here's one of the latest victims, a helpless 80 year old man.  I'm surprised the media bothered to mention it: 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/10/craig-robertson-biden-assassination-fbi-killing-utah

 

And they steal and lie as a habit.  Just one recent, minor thing:

https://apnews.com/article/civil-war-gold-fbi-dig-pennsylvania-6b5feca00ebf3e04638a8bbce992809d

 

Here's some stuff about the SPLC, although you probably won't like the sources.

https://adflegal.org/setting-the-record-straight

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/08/24/republican-national-committee-condemns-southern-poverty-law-center/3431429001/

 

Folks who are pre-biased against the information won't accept it.  Folks who accept it will often get the wrong conclusions (which is how we have so many Trumpists).  About the only useful source you can get is people who were there when things happened.  I know what I have seen.  I know what my partners have seen, and what my friends experienced, both here and in other places.  I can tell you these things, although I don't have the eloquence of my husband or fancy papers framed on the wall....I just raise tomatoes and chase toddlers most of the day. 

 

[Betty K]

@awkward-yet-sweet, that is an impressive collection of genetic fallacies.
 

To return to your original point, is Antifa a terrorist organisation and the primary source of savagery on American streets? Based on your (or your husband’s?) eyewitness account, all that can credibly be claimed is that people aligned with Antifa have committed acts of terrorism. To jump from that to saying Antifa is a terrorist organisation is like saying that, because some Muslims commit acts of terrorism, Islam is a terrorist organisation. I hope it’s obvious that claim is false.

 

As to whether Antifa is the primary source of savagery on the streets of the USA, without citing other sources it’s an impossible question to answer. Your eyewitness account alone tells us nothing at all. To a citizen of Baghdad in the early 2000s, the USA (along with Australia and the UK) might well have seemed like the primary source of violence in the world. To a citizen of Kiev in the 2020s, it would be Russia. To a Palestinian in either of those eras it would be Israel, and to an Israeli it would be Palestine. Who is correct? 
 

3 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Folks who are pre-biased against the information won't accept it. 

I think this is one point on which we can agree.

Again, my condolences for whatever happened in your community.