a funny thing happened at lunch yesterday

[Vidanjali]

Yesterday I went out for lunch with a friend. Picture this. I am an afab trans enby and present as artistic, androgynous, masc-leaning. My lunch companion is 20 years older than me and a soft-butch lesbian. I came out to her just a few months ago. When the server returned to our table to take our order he said, "So, ladies, how are we feeling?" Without compunction I cheerfully replied, "Well, not like a lady, but besides that I'm deciding between these two items - which would you recommend?" The server, who was energetic and very friendly, said, "Oh, okay!" and then proceeded to tell me his opinion about the two menu selections. My friend looked amused. For the rest of our time there the server referred to us as "you guys". He was a sweetie. I must say it felt good to openly declare my not-a-lady status and not feel fearful about it. Of course I don't feel fearless about it in all circumstances (especially as I live in Florida), but it was nice to feel free like that. 

 

On the other hand I reflect on the long period of my life during which I was deeply in the closet, overcompensating, masking, and miserable. It used to really bother me when "you guys" was used to generically address a me among a group of people regardless of gender. I realize now why it bothered me so much. Every time I was included in "you guys" I'd panic a little, thinking "OMG they know - they can see through my disguise - they know I'm not "normal". It's funny how now I find safety in "you guys" as people generally mean it to be gender-neutral despite the literal meaning of "guys". I wonder if that mode of address bothers any transwomen or femmes. Do most people understand it as gender-neutral? And is anyone bothered by a gender-neutral form of address when they would be more affirmed by a binary form of address?

[Timi]

37 minutes ago, Vidanjali said:

... It's funny how now I find safety in "you guys" as people generally mean it to be gender-neutral despite the literal meaning of "guys". I wonder if that mode of address bothers any transwomen or femmes. Do most people understand it as gender-neutral? And is anyone bothered by a gender-neutral form of address when they would be more affirmed by a binary form of address?

Thank you for sharing the coffee shop story - so interesting and I'm glad it turned out well!

 

I often hang out with a couple of women with whom I'm very close friends. One is gay and the other cis. "You guys" is often bandied about, especially by the cis woman, as a reference to the other two people in the group, e.g. "You guys make me laugh so hard!" It never really bothered me because it was always done with obvious affection.

 

We've known each other for many years - decades really. I just came out to them when I started transitioning a few months ago. Our gatherings were always feminine, and now are even more so with me more freely being myself (although presenting as a male or gender-ambiguous male - wearing a casual kilt or blousy hippie top or such).

 

I would not only be affirmed, but absolutely thrilled if the referred to me as one of the "ladies", "girls", or "gals." I don't see that happening anytime soon. "Guys" still seems to be more gender-neutral (but why?) and even affectionate depending on context. 

[Vidanjali]

@Timi Shiels how lovely you have such jovial and companionable friends.

 

And I totally understand what you mean by being thrilled if you were included as one of the ladies. Similarly, but also differently, I used to adore spending time with my gay boy friends when I was active in the choir in which I used to sing. But, I was not out. I came out to one of the boys - someone who I had considered an intimate friend - and it didn't go well. I came to find out that he was rather bigoted and simply refused to believe me or acknowledge it. It was very upsetting and made me afraid to tell anyone else in that group. When I'd hang out with the boys, there was a mixture of joy and awful dysphoria because while I saw myself as very much like them, they saw me as a lady. Eventually I quit the choir mostly because of chronic illness, but there was also a component of giving myself social relief - it had become too stressful for me to spent time with them. Later on, given some distance, I did come out to a couple of my gay male friends in the group. One who is older, was completely sweet about it and opened up more about himself. It was as if he recognized me as "family" in that moment. Very wonderful. The other is a decade younger than me and he was perfectly gracious and even affirmed that he saw my relationship with my husband as a true example of "love is love". So, that was a balm to the scar left by the bigoted "friend".

 

You make a good point that "guys" is indeed also used as term of endearment. That was not on my radar (given my baggage, I suppose), so thanks for pointing it out.

[Timi]

37 minutes ago, Vidanjali said:

I came out to one of the boys - someone who I had considered an intimate friend - and it didn't go well. ... Later on, given some distance, I did come out to a couple of my gay male friends in the group. One who is older, was completely sweet about it and opened up more about himself. It was as if he recognized me as "family" in that moment. ... So, that was a balm to the scar left by the bigoted "friend".

Oh! Thank you for sharing, Vidanjali. 

 

Reading about your first experience brings me a visceral gut reaction of fear. I can, in my imagination, want to come out to someone and think it will go wonderfully, and then experience the exact opposite. I haven't had that happen to me. Yet. But from what I've been hearing listening to other people's stories, it seems sure to happen. 

 

So I'll remember about that second experience, when you were recognized as "family"

 

My gay woman friend was my business partner for many years, and we shared an office and pretty much shared a brain. But when I came out to her, she also recognized me as "family" and opened up more about herself. 

 

I always hold dearly onto one text of hers for those moments I fear -- She sent a link to the song "(Expletive) Perfect" by Pink and said the chorus was from her to me. It's just what I need to hear. 

 

Maybe those super painful moments can be soothed by the super sweet moments after all. 

[Vidanjali]

3 hours ago, Timi Shiels said:

 Maybe those super painful moments can be soothed by the super sweet moments after all. 

 

YES. Love ALWAYS wins. 

[Ivy]

I know what "guys" means literally, but it's kinda become neutral in usage.  In a way I think of it like "y'all".  If I'm with other people it doesn't bother me at all.

However, if someone were to refer to me, alone, by myself, as "Hey guy" it would bother me I think.  It would at least merit a dirty look or eye roll.

[KathyLauren]

"Guys", plural only, has taken on a gender neutral usage.  My wife hates it and calls out servers in restaurants all the time about it. 

 

Server: "How are you guys today?"  Wife: "Neither of us is a guy!"  Server: "Oh my gosh, I'm sorry, guys!"  She has way too much fun with it!

 

I tend to agree with her.  And yet, I find myself addressing a mixed group or an all-female group as "you guys" myself.  And then kicking myself for doing so.  Argh!  I sympathize with the servers.  It is a hard habit to break.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

4 hours ago, Ivy said:

I know what "guys" means literally, but it's kinda become neutral in usage.  In a way I think of it like "y'all".  If I'm with other people it doesn't bother me at all.

However, if someone were to refer to me, alone, by myself, as "Hey guy" it would bother me I think.  It would at least merit a dirty look or eye roll.

 

I'm thankful to live in the South, where folks say "y'all" just as much or more than using "guys."  Y'all is nice and inclusive and totally gender-neutral.  But then, there are a few people (which includes a partner who shall remain unidentified) who use "dude" in conversation even addressing a female.  And apparently that's normal.  Oh well! 😄

[Birdie]

Living in the south as well I rarely hear 'guys' in conversation other than referring to more than one male. 

 

In half my childhood I lived in the Midwest, and 'guys' was used quite frequently as a unisex term. 

 

It was never allowed usage at home do to a very strict grandfather that saw the usage of it as grammatically incorrect. We were told to use 'you all' instead. 

 

Here in Texas I will use y'all with those that are accustomed to it. The locals know quite rapidly that I am not from here, even through I have been here since the 7th grade. Having a Welsh grandparent had quite the impact on our use of the English language. 

[Mirrabooka]

We don't typically say y'all here but I use it often enough on the American forums that I participate in. I actually got used to it a few years ago thanks to a couple of favourite YouTube music review channels that I subscribe to and I think it's a sensible term.

 

I agree with Ivy and Kathy, I see "guys" as a unisex term but "guy" could easily be a case of misgendering.

 

I'm gonna throw a curve ball now. I often say "Thanks mate" to women, for example to a sales assistant, or to a waitress after taking our order, or even to a receptionist at a medical center. It's not unusual here, it's just part of the vernacular, just like calling a redhead "Bluey." There is no gender attached to it. Despite that, I can't help thinking now that if I called a transwoman "Mate", she might think that I am misgendering her?

[Birdie]

1 hour ago, Mirrabooka said:

I can't help thinking now that if I called a transwoman "Mate", she might think that I am misgendering her?

I can see where in some countries that would be problematic. I do remember my grandfather calling female acquaintances 'mates' as well. It was expected of him, so well taken. 

I don't think it's misgendering in the least. We call our 'workmates' and 'classmates' in a unisex terminology all the time. 

However calling a trans-woman receptionist 'mate' in my part of Texas might make her uncomfortable unless you happen to have the accent that should accompany the expression. 

 

 

[Heather Shay]

@Vidanjali wonderful question. I'm a transwoman and you guys doesn't bother me but "sir" cuts me to the quick. I'm confined in my area like you in Florida due to being ultra MAGA here but not being able to socialize freely here hurts A LOT.

[Ivy]

On 12/1/2023 at 5:16 AM, Mirrabooka said:

I can't help thinking now that if I called a transwoman "Mate", she might think that I am misgendering her?

Well, I would probably take it that way.  But of course where I live nobody  would use the term.   I am of course aware that it is commonly used "down under" among other places, and if you were to use it I would take that into consideration, LOL.

 

On 12/1/2023 at 7:24 AM, Heather Shay said:

"sir" cuts me to the quick.

Yeah that one is hard to take - especially when deliberate.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

Interesting... hadn't thought of using "mate" in a social context outside the home.  Totally not used like that here.  Mate is a synonym for "intimate parter" or spouse in my world, but we don't use it much.  

[Sally Stone]

I don't live in the south anymore, but I spent so much time there when I was in the military that I still always use the term "y'all."  It was gender neutral long before gender neutral was a thing and it really does help prevent misgendering someone.  I like it.  I'm also in the "guys" is gender neutral camp, since everyone uses it these days as a term of endearment.  

[Timi]

On 12/1/2023 at 7:24 AM, Heather Shay said:

@Vidanjali wonderful question. I'm a transwoman and you guys doesn't bother me but "sir" cuts me to the quick. 

I was just at the grocery store in boy clothes with a little gay flair and got the "sir" from a clerk and it got me thinking. Why are "sir" and "ma'am" still in use at all? The gender labeling is bad enough. I can't even imagine how bad it would feel if I was en femme. But those words also have class/privilege baggage as well. Is there some better term? Actually, why not just omit the honorific entirely?

[KathyLauren]

1 hour ago, Timi Shiels said:

I was just at the grocery store in boy clothes with a little gay flair and got the "sir" from a clerk and it got me thinking. Why are "sir" and "ma'am" still in use at all? The gender labeling is bad enough. I can't even imagine how bad it would feel if I was en femme. But those words also have class/privilege baggage as well. Is there some better term? Actually, why not just omit the honorific entirely?

 

I got sir-ed this morning.  I was at the lumber yard buying some 2x6s, so I wasn't dressed fancy.  Everything I was wearing came from the women's side of the store, but jeans and a ski jacket don't make much of an impression.  So I didn't correct the guy.  It was irritating, but not worth the hassle.

 

You are right.  The honourific is entirely unnecessary.  I'd be happier without it.

[MaeBe]

2 hours ago, Timi Shiels said:

Why are "sir" and "ma'am" still in use at all?

Societal habit. It's hard to break, too. Most people don't full engage their brain when conversing and I don't mean that in a bad way. We're wired to be as efficient as possible in what we do and unless we fully engage our brain we use the shortcuts we've learned over time. But, over time, habits change. They take a while, but perhaps in a window of time, not so far in the future, people will generally not the use dated hono(u)rifics (😁) society uses today.

[MirandaB]

I have a niece who tries to correct her ma whenever there is 'sir'-ing and 'maam'-ing going on. Maybe eventually it will happen .