Post Op Sexuality

[Carolyn Marie]

This thread is prompted by my completion of the fourth TS autobiography I've read. Some were written long ago, others more recently.

One thing they all share is a description of post operative behavior that I euphemistically describe as "risk-taking," but could also be

described as jumping the bones of anyone within reach.

Yeah, so anyway, what I'm trying to figure out, is if these Transwomen (and I include Transmen here too, its just that all the books I've

read so far have been by transwomen) are aberrations, or if you have found in your discussions with others, or in your own experiences, that this kind of behavior is typical.

I certainly understand why someone would want to experiment with their newly found sexuality. I mean, hey, when you get a new car, you

don't just let it sit there in the driveway, right? Most of us have been trying to obtain the new equipment for years, and

gave up everything, including our retirement savings, to have it installed. Why wouldn't you want to road test it? But the behavior of

some of the authors I've read, going through hole in the wall dating services, picking up guys in bars, and all the rest, just boggles my

mind. Aren't there more traditional ways to find men (or women)? Or do some of us believe those are the only places we would be accepted?

I don't expect anyone to talk openly about their own experiences. But if you can couch it in ways that protect the innocent, I would really

like to know what the real world is like. Please remember, this is PG 13. Thanks

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Jenni_S]

Hi Carolyn,

While I do see the appeal of "taking it out for a spin," it's just not in my nature. I guess you could say I've been keeping mine in the garage for sixteen months. While one can certainly find the easy opportunities, they usually have some REALLY unsavory characters on the other end. I'd rather wait until I find a person with whom we would both find meaning in the act. Something "quick and dirty" would just leave me thinking "What have I just done??" So, call me crazy, but I'll keep away from people that give me the heebie-jeebies!

[Guest N. Jane]

I had SRS in 1974 at the age of 24. I spent significant parts of my teens in girl mode and felt very stymied by my physical impediment. In those days most girls lost their virginity somewhere between 15 and 18 (on average) and I felt very much that life was passing me by. I had my first boyfriend at 14 and lost him at 16 because I wouldn't/couldn't have sex with him. At 18 there was a man who was very much in love with me and wanted to marry me ..... but I couldn't. There is no way I would have made it to 24 as a virgin if it hadn't been for the physical problem.

My first time wasn't my idea - I wasn't "looking". A smooth talking Irishman took a fancy to me and I was too naive to offer much effective resistance.

After that, well, it was the 1970's, the days of "free love", flower children, and I was one of them. I had been sexually repressed for nearly a decade and I can to enjoy my passion and sensuality.

It all really had little to do with my medical past but with growing up in a time when "morals" were quite different.

[Guest BeckyTG]

Carolyn,

I expect that this might be explained developmentally as GCS (Gender Confirmation Surgery) is the equivalent of a young girl having her first period. The girl is now physically mature (in theory) and she also thinks she knows everything. She doesn't want to listen to her parents and she wants to "prove her womanhood" by showing that she can attract a man and get him to submit to her will. She doesn't realize that all the men want is her on her back one time. All that "will you still respect me in the morning?" can be answered with "Heck, I don't respect you now!"

The truth is, this young girl is no more ready for the outside world than the newly minted GCS patient. The girl isn't ready to get a job, provide for herself and know all the things she needs to know in order to survive and prosper in the long term. She still has a lot of learning to do and it will take years to do it.

The GCS patient feels like the surgery is the end of the transition and they "can now get on with their life". They don't need a therapist, support group or anyone. They are now a woman.

Great--now you've isolated yourself from those who can coach you and guide you. I know many probably have come through fine, but why not take advantage of the combined experience and knowledge of all those who've come before?

Maybe this is part of the reason for the "post-op depression" I've read about. Reality sinks in. OK--you're a woman. Now What?

A girlfriend who just completed hers is now concerned with fitting in with the other women where she works. She was an outsider before, can she now earn her place? How will she deal with being a second-class citizen at many male-dominated places? How will she know how to truly experience sex as a woman?

I mean this sincerely. Unless you have a coach with some experience, this is all new and is nothing like sex as a man. Many of us never really had that experience, for we didn't consider ourselves to be men. In many ways, we're really virgins without a clue.

There is so much to learn and this behavior is a great way to become dead, either through AIDS or some other STD, or being raped or some other violent crime. This is not an area to play around with.

People who think they already know it all should look at a teenager, because the parallels are scary. A year of RLE prepares you for the rest of your life.....right.

Becky

[Guest BeckyTG]

I had SRS in 1974 at the age of 24. I spent significant parts of my teens in girl mode and felt very stymied by my physical impediment. In those days most girls lost their virginity somewhere between 15 and 18 (on average) and I felt very much that life was passing me by. I had my first boyfriend at 14 and lost him at 16 because I wouldn't/couldn't have sex with him. At 18 there was a man who was very much in love with me and wanted to marry me ..... but I couldn't. There is no way I would have made it to 24 as a virgin if it hadn't been for the physical problem.

My first time wasn't my idea - I wasn't "looking". A smooth talking Irishman took a fancy to me and I was too naive to offer much effective resistance.

After that, well, it was the 1970's, the days of "free love", flower children, and I was one of them. I had been sexually repressed for nearly a decade and I can to enjoy my passion and sensuality.

It all really had little to do with my medical past but with growing up in a time when "morals" were quite different.

Jane, you are so right about those times. The worst thing that could happen back then was to get a disease that took a shot to cure. It was that easy. All the "free love" was likely brought about by the advent of the birth control pill. It was simple, easy and led to a devil-may-care moral fiber by the youth of the time.

I don't see a way to adequately compare then and now. AIDS turned out to be God's way of saying PAY ATTENTION: she didn't exactly call it "The Ten Suggestions", you know.

Becky

[Guest Elizabeth K]

but could also be described as jumping the bones of anyone within reach.

I used that phrase about a year ago and got into trouble.

Obviously it was offensive to some people who equated 'bone' with 'penis.'

Just a heads up.

Lizzy

[Carolyn Marie]

but could also be described as jumping the bones of anyone within reach.

I used that phrase about a year ago and got into trouble.

Obviously it was offensive to some people who equated 'bone' with 'penis.'

Just a heads up.

Lizzy

Thanks Lizzy, but I think the entire phrase is what matters, and three different dictionaries all say it means what I intended it to: sexual intercourse.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora Carolyn,

My post-op sexuality [or should I say asexuality] is no different to when I was living pre-op, I have no pressing desire for any intimate relationships…From the get go I was not driven by any desire to test my new equipment …

In fact I would have been quite happy just to have surgery to remove the penis and construct a non functioning vagina[cosmetic surgery so to speak], however when it comes to government funding, beggars can’t be choosers, it was all or nothing, so I chose all[i’m not complaining] ..

It’s funny really because when I was selected for the $30,000 plus surgical procedure , on hearing about this, some members of the local ‘trans-community’ were a bit peeved because the government was prepared to fund surgery for a person who was ‘not’ interested in having sex “OMG they are funding an ‘asexual’s surgery !”…”What’s the point in that?”

Fortunately nowadays most gate keepers are focused more on the level of comfort one feels in their own skin and that the possibility of genital surgery will go some way to increasing their quality of life-ones level of contentment=’peace of mind’ …

In all the psyche assessments related to approval for government funded surgery, my ‘asexuality’ was clearly stated…

A trans-friend prior to having her surgery, her number one concern was 'SEX' ie, will she find a guy to have sex with and would she enjoy having sex! Well she did[more than one but is now finally settled down in along term relationship] ... Whatever rocks your boat ...

Metta Zenda:)

[Guest ChloëC]

I will say, Carolyn, that those sections of Canary and Mirror Images put me off a little when I read them. I mean, I'm no prude, and in my imagination, if I went through transition, I knew I would want to find out, but, the way these two women wrote about it, I just wonder how absolutely true it was, and how much was added (or enhanced) for 'shock' value to try to make the book a seller.

They say sex sells, and I would guess in the 1970's when morals were supposedly a little looser, that the publishers may have thought there might be a sort of voyeur sub-market for these stories, since they may have felt the mainstream might not be there (yet).

I think it was Mirror Images where the author spent two or three chapters talking quite strongly about protecting her virginity, then the next chapter, she 'happily' (and way too quickly) lost it to almost some stranger.

And isn't it in Canary where she wound up having to work at a mail-order adult toy place and the owner or manager put some moves on her and she succombed? It just made the story a little less, oh, liberating, I guess.

I mean in 1970's USA, for a teen/early 20's potential mtf, the choices were drag queen, female impersonator, odd media star, or jumping into bed with almost the first male that showed interest. Not exactly ideal choices. Maybe that's why I chose the road I did.

Hugs

Chloë

[Carolyn Marie]

I just wonder how absolutely true it was, and how much was added (or enhanced) for 'shock' value to try to make the book a seller.

.

That thought had occurred to me, Chloe. No way to know. Still, it makes for a good discussion piece, don't it?

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Jenni_S]

The GCS patient feels like the surgery is the end of the transition and they "can now get on with their life". They don't need a therapist, support group or anyone. They are now a woman.

Becky,

Which patients are these? I haven't quit seeing my therapist, nor would I recommend anyone else doing so. I know three other post-ops here locally, and all of us continued in our support groups and therapy sessions after surgery. I stayed with my group for a year after mine was done, and continue with my therapist monthly. I don't disagree that many post-ops do have that attitude that "everything is done, so here I go!" But I think that making such a generalization is painting with a brush that's a bit too wide.

A year of RLE prepares you for the rest of your life.....right.

I think a lot of opportunities are missed in therapy. This falls at both the feet of the therapist, and the patient. I have heard patients say that people should go to so-and-so, they'll give you a letter right away. Is this therapist doing their job? And what about the patients who do their best to give the therapist what they think the therapist wants to hear? Really, the patient is only short-changing their own self when they do this, and learns some very hard lessons. Therapy should not be looked upon as a roadblock, just something to do to get that box checked on a list and rubber stamped. I wonder how many of these post-ops who make questionable decisions saw therapy as such.

RLE for one year is only a minimum. A therapist can, and should, withhold that letter of recommendation if they feel the patient is not ready for what lies ahead. Nevertheless, there do appear to be those therapists who gladly will hand out letters immediately at the end of that year.

There are so many that have their hearts set on this one goal, and see it as what "fixes" them, while ignoring everything else about themselves. What goes on in those therapy sessions, that they must have to satisfy the SOC, that leaves no time for preparing for what comes next?

[Guest BeckyTG]

Jenni,

My apologies for not being clear. Of course, I should have written "Many GCS patients..." or perhaps it would have been more correct to write "Too many GCS patients..."

The last part of your comments address an issue with which I have some experience--therapists. My first therapist SAID that she was familiar with trans issues. The reality was, she wasn't very well trained, from my perspective. She actually told me on my 6th visit that I really didn't need to come to any more therapy... While it may have been true that my mind is quite clear, I needed to learn a lot about transitioning. She was not equipped to do it.

I had quite a few more sessions with her before I switched and found night and day with my new therapist. She is very well trained and experienced at this transition stuff and she has me working on things I never thought would be an issue. I can certainly see the need, now, after her coaching.

The truth is, no one is ever "there" at whatever it is they set out to do, there's always room for improvement in everything. We must seek out experts in those fields we wish to be in and listen to them and learn from them.

Sorry for the confusion. I don't own a brush that wide....

Becky

[Sally]

I suppose that I am the anomaly here too, that seems to be my role in life, I have never in any of my fantasies actually dreamed about having sex as a male or female - in nightmares I have been attacked but woke suddenly.

I do not think that the GCS, SRS GRS or whatever anyone wants to call it has any effect whatsoever on the patient's morals or preoccupation with sex.

The new car analogy is perfect for me, I have owned 7 new cars and one antique and I have yet to 'open her up and see what she can do', it is just not a part of my nature so I do not think that any surgery is going to make me suddenly change my entire attitude about sex.

For me romance and emotional intimacy are the goals and sex is not actually necessary for these, that is an area that got very confused in the 70s - I made it through the sexual revolution without ever being drafted and heard about free love and realized that love had little or nothing to do with it at all - I passed on all of it and continued my celibate lifestyle.

As to the inclusion of possibly 'enhanced' stories on this subject to sell books - just watch a few minutes of TV commercials, it is hard to find a product that does not try to tie into the whole idea of 'use this and you will get him or her' - sex sells.

There is also a great deal of confusion about sex and love - the two are totally independent and do not actually require the other at all.

Somewhere I am sure that there are others without sex being the only life force that keeps them going but for the most part I haven't run into too many other 59 year old virgins.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest Jenni_S]

The truth is, no one is ever "there" at whatever it is they set out to do, there's always room for improvement in everything. We must seek out experts in those fields we wish to be in and listen to them and learn from them.

Hi Becky,

I completely agree, and there's never an "end" to anything we do. There are always things we don't know. It seems to me that there are a lot of therapists who say they know transgender issues, or list it in their experience; but when they actually get a patient, they haven't any idea what's going on. And yet, judging from some of the posts I've seen here, people continue to see these therapists. Nothing good comes of that, except for officially marking the time spent in the therapy.

When I began my transition, I didn't know how lucky I was to have the resources available at the University of Minnesota. A therapist that pushes the patient to work on things just seemed the norm to me. Since talking and meeting with many, many others now, that certainly appears to be the exception. And that's really a shame, because I think those who get through surgery and "know it all" had that attitude long before surgery. They just never had that attitude challenged.

Just like everyone else, we should never stop learning. There's always something new to find out. People say I'm crazy when they see me reading owner's manuals, and perhaps they're right; but who knows where to look when their car stops running? (OK, so it's a weird analogy, but I think you see where I'm going.) Inside our own heads should be no different, there's so much to learn there. It's a scary thing to do, what if there are unpleasant things? If we don't find them, though, they won't change. We should never stop pushing our own selves, and challenging our own beliefs.

[Drea]

Carolyn, in these autobiographies, how recent after srs were they written and when had the activity taken place relitive to the surgery? I mean was it within a few years after or was it taking place 10 years after.

I have encountered more than a few transitioning where sex was very imporant to them. They were looking forward to becomming sexually active SRS. I remember many of them talking about their first experiences in the year or so after surgery and then they pretty much shut up about it. Some talked about how, after getting that experimentation out of their system, their view on sex had quite radically changed from what they had prior to SRS.

I don't find the idea surprising that some have engaged in some casual or reckless sexual activities.

The GCS patient feels like the surgery is the end of the transition and they "can now get on with their life". They don't need a therapist, support group or anyone. They are now a woman.

Great--now you've isolated yourself from those who can coach you and guide you. I know many probably have come through fine, but why not take advantage of the combined experience and knowledge of all those who've come before?

Maybe this is part of the reason for the "post-op depression" I've read about. Reality sinks in. OK--you're a woman. Now What?

I would agree. The belief that surgery is the end, belief in not needing a therapist after, are components that lead into the depression. "Getting on with life" factors in there, but I think it does so more in the fact that "getting on with life" is easier said than done.

I don't understand the middle part reference as far as "those who can coach and guide you". Who would that be referring to?

I agree with Jenni about not ending therapy when one has SRS. That is such an arbitrary point. In fact, I think after SRS it becomes easier to get focused on some of the other issues with the transition stuff in the past. Issues that ideally would be addressed prior to surgery but many either don't recognize them or just needed the body modification past to understand.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

In fact, I think after SRS it becomes easier to get focused on some of the other issues with the transition stuff in the past. Issues that ideally would be addressed prior to surgery but many either don't recognize them or just needed the body modification past to understand.

EXACTLY

And these 'tell all' books sometimes got so into "MY experience is... blah blah blah... they really missed a lot of what was going on, especially in the earlier books. But perhaps people better understand transitioning now. I think that we now have better communication within the community, and with the mental health professionals. I hope so.

Lizzy

[Carolyn Marie]

Carolyn, in these autobiographies, how recent after srs were they written and when had the activity taken place relitive to the surgery? I mean was it within a few years after or was it taking place 10 years after.

As I recall, most involved sexual activity within months of healing, pretty much as soon as they were physically able. In one book, the author indicated that she was still married while doing all this "experimenting." Not surprisingly, she didn't stay married very long.

In all of the earlier books, and even in some later ones (Jennifer Boylan's, for instance), I don;t recall any of them seeing a therapist

afterward. So, yeah, I think if they had, it might have kept them in better balance. Food for thought.

Carolyn Marie

[Drea]

As I recall, most involved sexual activity within months of healing, pretty much as soon as they were physically able. In one book, the author indicated that she was still married while doing all this "experimenting." Not surprisingly, she didn't stay married very long

If that soon, it doesn't sound like it would be atypical though certainly wouldn't refelect all. What I would really be curious about is their feeling son it 5 years later.

Most who are likely to write are either in transition or recently transitioned so what if any material is included post-op tends to be limited in scope. I am sure there are some out there now that do have much more and I think Renee Richards wrote a second book late in life.

[guest]

People have sex... GG's have sex.... men have sex....

But, I would imagine many transgendered don't have sex. Leading up to the surgery, how many are in active sexual relationships? I would bet them getting their body "in order" finally lets them get out and actually start doing what everyone is doing.

Friends with benefits, hooking up with people at a bar, dating sites or sleeping with people on the first date... these are all normal. Men and women around the world are engaging in this "risky behaviour" all the time.

It is OK to like and want sex. Being transgender doesn't mean you also need to buy into the double standard between men and women towards sex. Having sex outside of a stable long-lasting relationship is OK (just do it safely / responsibly and there is no problem).

[Drea]

Friends with benefits, hooking up with people at a bar, dating sites or sleeping with people on the first date... these are all normal. Men and women around the world are engaging in this "risky behaviour" all the time.

It is OK to like and want sex. Being transgender doesn't mean you also need to buy into the double standard between men and women towards sex. Having sex outside of a stable long-lasting relationship is OK (just do it safely / responsibly and there is no problem).

It is not entirely clear to me what the "the double standard between men and women towards sex" you specifically mean is.

Would this be the cultural standards where men who engage in casual sex, sleeping around, or engage in risky activity is simply considered to be "what men do", but a woman who engages in those activities is considered to be..um...to avoid negative words "less than a lady"?

Or were you referring to the sort of gender stereotype that suggests that men like and enjoy casual sex while women aren't really interested in casual sex and often don't enjoy it?

On the cultural standard, I think most MTF don't have much concern with acting outside it. If for no other reason than not being raised to meet that standard. Regardless such a standard is an externally imposed standard. One can conform to it, or not. One can not decide if it is applied to them or not. If one choses not to conform with the standard, they risk the having the standard applied to them. In many cases they are such an age, living independently, that there isn't much risk of them developing a "reputation" unless they sleep around with guys they work with.

On the gender stereotype,well that is a stereotype and certainly there are women who engage in casual sex and do enjoy it. However I do think that stereotype has basis in the typical views males have toward sex as compared to females. It is my feeling that those views have very little to do with trying to meet the earlier mentioned cultural standard.

One area where I have seen SRS change views about sex has been in the area of casual sex. Many who had somewhat cavalier attitude towards casual sex pre SRS, find post SRS that they aren't quite so cavalier. Just a few days ago I talked with someone a couple months post-op who was expressing just how much her views on sex changed in this way. This is just one example of many similar. They aren't monolithic of course. Some find this change almost immediate before getting sexually active while others it happens after getting some experimenting out of their system. I think this attitude change reflects changes brought about by the realities of their new physical anatomy down there.

I am not saying it happens with all. Certainly some aren't so cavalier about casual sex before hand. Some aren't preoccupied by sex. And some who are, may not see any change there.

[Guest ChloëC]

ok, just understand I don't have any problem at all with anyone doing what they want to do (consenting adults, etc). I just wondered in the cases of these two books I read, exactly how much of what was written was actual, or what might have been enhanced a little for publication purposes. That and the other issue I mentioned where the one author went on for several chapters very intently writing that she had to protect her viriginity and then losing it in the next chapter in a very off hand and casual way.

I mean in both books, it sort of seemed like, ok, great, I have this new equipment, I've got to be really careful and I want to do this just right. Oh, wait, look, there's a male, let's jump in bed. Both these books were published in the 1970's when that attitude (the swinger) was in full force.

I just don't think the attitudes expressed in the books regarding that aspect were conveying good role models. It's like, everyone getting a sex change is doing it for one reason, and more importantly, that's going to happen to you within months, so either expect it or highly anticipate it. Both attitudes do a dis-service to being human and understanding that a whole lot of issues will still need to be addressed.

What is more important to me right now, is what has happend to these women. Is anyone doing any long term follow up. And I don't mean regrets for transitioning, more like looking back, is there some wisdom you'd like to impart to those who are following the trail you helped blaze. That, to me would provide a much greater benefit, then how the books seemed to end.

Hugs

Chloë

[Carolyn Marie]

I think that the attitude within society, regarding why we transition, seems based in part on the stereotypes depicted in some of those books. It is reinforced by talk shows and popular media. The books aren't widely read enough to be the main cause, but they certainly don't help.

When I came out to my wife, one of the first questions she asked me was whether I was doing this to have sex with men. It seems to be the dominant response. We just have to keep hammering home the point that this is not what drives us. If we keep at it, sooner or later it will sink in that transsexuals are not sex fiends, predators and morally bankrupt people.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Lacey Lynne]

Carolyn Marie:

Great topic, hon. Very interesting point. Great replies from everybody.

All I can say is that the T-girls writing these books have an agenda. They're trying to sell a book and build a name. Guess what sells? Yep! You guessed it.

My supposition is that most postop T-girls are actually pretty conservative and wait for meaningful relationships. Sure, we want to try out our new and correct equipment. That's natural. However, casual flings don't really get it, at least in my book anyway.

Hey, I'm the LEAST qualified person on this forum to comment on THIS subject. I'm an abject failure, and admittedly so, with this entire sexuality deal. Heck, I didn't lose my virginity until I was 23 and nearly 24. In 55.3 years, I've only been with 3 women. THEY initiated our relationships. THEY our intimacy. For what it's worth, they unanimously told me their only complaint was a lack of frequency. Mind you, I'm NOT boasting or comparing. I'm just saying. Actually, I loved the cuddling and kissing and nuzzling way more than the genital contact. Don't get me wrong ... I'm NOT complaining about that.

Ain't it funny how things unfold? For decades, all I've ever heard from everybody how available sex is for the having and how easily one can have it. Sheeeuuut! My experience is exactly the opposite. Yeah, it WAS available and easy for everybody else! Not for me, that's for doggone sure.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY showed any interest in me physically whatsoever in my youth. Believe me. Must be the Asperger Syndrome I have. So many people told me, "She's way interested in you." "OMG, she's throwing out signals bigtime." "God, dude, she likes you!" Like, Holy Cow? I NEVER, EVER perceived it! Honestly.

Man, talk about irony. People, and many of them, did not start flirting, and most blatantly so, until ... I was in my later-40s and quite married! Jeesh! Well, no way would I have done anything with any of them. I'm married. End of discussion. It would be wrong. Like, go figure! Why didn't this happen when I was YOUNG and I was SINGLE?!? Like, cripe, man ... wassup with dat?

If, let's say when, I ultimately have SRS/GRS (... and I'm thinking I will actually have it ...), unless I find a significant other, I'll NOT be sleeping around. First, I'm not in to that. Second, I'm much older. Third, I'm into women. Strike three! I'm out! What a life ... sigh.

Funny thing is that even on the two transforums I belong to, many people have contacted me and said I've got brains AND beauty. Well, yeah, I've got a hot brain, but everybody has ALWAYS hated me for it and all it has caused me is grief. Beauty? Honestly, I just don't see it. And, no, I'm not fishing for compliments. I'm just telling the plain truth.

Carolyn Marie, I seriously doubt that the majority of T-girls (and T-guys!!!) are shameless sybarites and reprehensible reprobates in matters connubial. It's an individual proposition. Your mileage may vary. To each their own. Apetites and tastes vary. Lord knows, I'm libidinous. Heck, I STILL am, but I am quite thoroughly alone insofar as having a sexual partner goes. Will that change? Don't know. Hope so. Ain't gettin' any younger, hon. Like, whatever.

Yeah, it must be the Asperber Syndrome. Look it up on Google sometime. Believe me, it's a bummer. Worse than GID in my book. I know. Got 'em both. Oh, well.

Lovelorn Lacey

[Carolyn Marie]

Carolyn Marie, I seriously doubt that the majority of T-girls (and T-guys!!!) are shameless sybarites and reprehensible reprobates in matters connubial.

Lovelorn Lacey

Ah, Lacey Lynne, now there is a sentence I can sink my teeth into. Keep 'em coming, girl! I love it!

Oh, and regarding the thread:

Carolyn Marie

[Drea]

I mean in both books, it sort of seemed like, ok, great, I have this new equipment, I've got to be really careful and I want to do this just right. Oh, wait, look, there's a male, let's jump in bed. Both these books were published in the 1970's when that attitude (the swinger) was in full force.

I just don't think the attitudes expressed in the books regarding that aspect were conveying good role models. It's like, everyone getting a sex change is doing it for one reason, and more importantly, that's going to happen to you within months, so either expect it or highly anticipate it. Both attitudes do a dis-service to being human and understanding that a whole lot of issues will still need to be addressed.

I guess it just goes to show you that you can't trust what those pesky post-op say. They just make it up or exaggerate everything and convey bad ideas about what it is to be trans to the non-trans community.

Post-op do seem to have a habit of saying things those who haven't had SRS don't want to hear. This is nothing new. And as is typical, the response is to ignore what was said or to kill the messenger. In response to the question asked, the one post-op who had SRS in the 70s responded and her experence seemed to be loosly aligned with what was in the books. To me that seemed to confirm that such was certainly possible if not likely. Does that not count for anything? The authors said it happened, but their word isn't good enough because "sex sells" so it was some agenda on their part. It seems to me the oddity of being trans would have been more than enough to sell books. And couldn't those t-girls have had more altruistic reasons for writing their books?

I see a post-op girl make a post about being depressed and what happens? She gets challenged about her properly following the standards. Or told by someone wanting SRS that she has no reason to be depressed because if she (person wanting SRS) were to have SRS she would be so happy. Message I take from these responses is post-op have no reason to be depressed. Aren't post-op human, don't they deserve support?

Conversely, when a newly minted post-op says are after SRS or when they talk of first intimate relations and saying how wonderful, those words are listened to intently.

In fact, I have heard so many relitivly recent post-op talking about their early intimate relations. Okay, lets call it what it is, bragging about it. Hey it all new to them and exciting so I don't begrudge that. So it doesn't suprise me one bit those t-girls in the books were talking about their sexual experiences. That is why I asked the question how recently post-op these activities were taking place.

Certainly not all post-op are like that, but there are plenty. And it is my opinion that whose who do that sort of thing do eventually settle down and develop different attitudes towards sex.

And about that little inconsistancy that has been harped upon about protecting their virginity yet then seeming to jump any guy. To me that represents a duality of feelings and is no more inconsistant than ones's actions not always matching their words. Sometimes one intends to do something but does different. How many have intended to stick to eating healthy but then get seduced by that half gallon of ice cream in the freezer? I can totally understand what N Jane said about the smooth talking Irishman.

I can't say what was in the book was accurate or not. Its not what I would talk about, but it seems consistant enough with what I have observed and I don't see reason to question it without much more cause.