Data suggests red states watch the most trans porn

[Betty K]

1 hour ago, VickySGV said:

their addictions led them to use work as well as home computers to access and to lie about where they had been on time they claimed to be working. 

Hang on, how were computers involved? I thought “transvestic fetishism” was about dressing as a woman?

[awkward-yet-sweet]

34 minutes ago, Betty K said:

As to objectification, it is a problem, yes, and I complained about it myself above. But I’ll admit, along with many other women (trans and cis) that, to me, an aspect of objectification can be healthy in sexual relations. I like being treated like a sex object, to a point. The problem only arises when that is all a man can see in me, when he refuses to treat me as a human being.

Interesting.  I hadn't thought of people actually liking being objectified....I guess it is a matter of perspective?  In my own life, I can't detach sex from emotion.  The idea of having sex with somebody without an emotional bond is something my brain just can't quite figure out.  Intellectually I understand the idea, and that its normal for lots of people, but beyond the "dictionary level" it is totally alien for me.  Probably why I waited a long time to have my first real relationship, and why I don't stray outside my family.  The thought of an emotional loss such as a breakup or divorce after an intense sexual connection is terrifying to me.

 

28 minutes ago, Betty K said:

The issue, to me, is the hypocrisy. It also seems very likely that the effort by many Republicans to so savagely suppress trans people stems from their own shame at being attracted to them. It’s the classic old Christian trope whereby attractive women are seen as harlots and temptresses simply because certain men find them attractive.

 

As a Christian, I disagree.  Of course I can't speak for all Christians, just myself.  My faith is very sex-positive, albeit within certain boundaries, and I very much enjoy the sexual aspect of my marital relationship with my partners.  The way I understand it, "harlot/temptress" is entirely about behavior, rather than appearance.  And the whole episode of Jesus interacting with the woman caught in the act of adultery was centered around forgiveness and life change and equality, rather than condemnation. 

 

What I find disagreeable and painful about pornography isn't that the people involved are presented as being attractive...there's nothing wrong with sexual attraction or with looking good (again, within boundaries.)  Its the one-dimensional nature of that attraction, and the complete elimination of the understanding that the human being we see is a bearer of God's image, a holder of inherent dignity, and a sibling.  The mind and heart are lost and trampled in that one-dimensional experience, only the flesh remains.  I can't see that and not feel intense loss.  

 

Since Red States tend to have a large portion of the population identifying as Christian, I see the influence of porn and the great number of searches as a massive tragedy.  I would hope that Christian folks would be more likely than average to see others as bearers of the Divine image, but I guess evil has been succeeding instead.  I feel like the objectification and sexualization of trans women significantly contributes to the violence against them.  So many of the murders of trans women in the USA are related to sex work or intimate relationships based on sex.   

[VickySGV]

52 minutes ago, Betty K said:

Hang on, how were computers involved? I thought “transvestic fetishism” was about dressing as a woman?

 

I cannot go into the actual details since it would violate our Community Rules about posting things that can be read by youth under 18.  I will PM you a little more detail. 

[Betty K]

8 minutes ago, VickySGV said:

I will PM you a little more detail. 

 

Okay cool, thanks

[Betty K]

18 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I hadn't thought of people actually liking being objectified....I guess it is a matter of perspective?  In my own life, I can't detach sex from emotion.  The idea of having sex with somebody without an emotional bond is something my brain just can't quite figure out. 

 

I don't think we're understanding each other here. I said a bit of objectification is fine so long as the man can see me as a human being. That doesn't preclude a bit of objectification within a serious relationship. I think many men are aroused by mostly visual stimulus. If someone I like, and who likes me, wants to spend some time appreciating my body as just that -- a body, a physical form -- then I encourage that. I like the feeling that he can appreciate me in that way. But he needs to be able to snap out of it, look me in the eyes, and appreciate me as a person with thoughts and emotions too.

 

24 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

As a Christian, I disagree.  Of course I can't speak for all Christians, just myself.  My faith is very sex-positive, albeit within certain boundaries, and I very much enjoy the sexual aspect of my marital relationship with my partners.  The way I understand it, "harlot/temptress" is entirely about behavior, rather than appearance.

 

I'm sorry if it sounded as if I was making a generalisation about Christians. I realise that just being Christian doesn't say anything in particular about an individual's attitudes to sex. But I do think that many of the various Christian churches have a long history of viewing women as inherently more sinful than men and of projecting responsibility for male lust onto women. Still, I guess this is not unique to Christianity, so I should have said it was a patriarchal trope, not a specifically Christian one.

 

I think the idea that, especially in past centuries, men called women harlots or temptresses entirely based on those women's behaviour is naive. The "Jezebel stereotype", employed by white male slave owners to blame black women for "tempting" them into sexually abusing them, is the most obvious counter-example that springs to my mind, but I'm sure there are many, many such examples stretching back through history and throughout cultures. As I said, I should have said it was a patriarchal thing.

 

31 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I feel like the objectification and sexualization of trans women significantly contributes to the violence against them. 

 

This is one thing we can definitely agree on. But the blame lies with the men who commit the violence, not the trans women who are subject to it.

[Ivy]

11 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

To an extent, doesn't it turn people into a commodity?

Not to open another can of worms, but doesn't capitalism in general do this?

 

There are certainly questions about the porn industry - or the sex industry in general.  But I'm not going to kink-shame anyone as long as it's consensual.

[Betty K]

16 minutes ago, Ivy said:

Not to open another can of worms, but doesn't capitalism in general do this?

Exactly.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

10 hours ago, Betty K said:

If someone I like, and who likes me, wants to spend some time appreciating my body as just that -- a body, a physical form -- then I encourage that. I like the feeling that he can appreciate me in that way. But he needs to be able to snap out of it, look me in the eyes, and appreciate me as a person with thoughts and emotions too.

 

I'm sorry if it sounded as if I was making a generalisation about Christians. I realise that just being Christian doesn't say anything in particular about an individual's attitudes to sex. But I do think that many of the various Christian churches have a long history of viewing women as inherently more sinful than men and of projecting responsibility for male lust onto women. Still, I guess this is not unique to Christianity, so I should have said it was a patriarchal trope, not a specifically Christian one.

 

Interesting thoughts.  I can identify with enjoying being appreciated physically.  Its a big part of my sexual connection with my partners, primarily in contrast to my upbringing.  When I was young, I was shamed and scolded (especially by my mother) for my unique body and physical features.  Now I experience intense pleasure from the desire of my partners for that same body and features.  The change is tremendous, and I never could have imagined it when I was younger.  I see the hand of the Divine in the creation of that change, and I wouldn't want that experience to be anything less. 

 

Perhaps the patriarchy could be another thread in the religion subforum.  Of course, even that can take different forms.  My faith community, for example, is very patriarchal... yet that takes the form of men having to uphold a higher standard of moral behavior and responsibility.  Men are expected to control their lustful thoughts, keep their behavior within boundaries, and avert their eyes from temptation - the emphasis is on self control, and men are more obligated to the burden of self-control than women.  I'm sure that's different from many historical situations, like slavery in the US South. 

 

1 hour ago, Ivy said:

Not to open another can of worms, but doesn't capitalism in general do this?

 

Sure.  Although I think socialist and communist forms of government do it as well.  The difference is in which force is doing the objectification - a company or a state?  To a company, employees and customers alike are both exploited.  To a state, citizens are exploited and seen as just a number.  In both cases, people are expendable.  An interesting aspect of a totalitarian state as it relates to sex/porn is the introduction of a kind of "national morality."  Whether that lifts up or debases people tends to vary. 

[Ivy]

57 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Perhaps the patriarchy could be another thread in the religion subforum.

Perhaps.

[KatieSC]

I am sure that some Red state supporter who is anti-trans will say the following if they are caught watching trans porn: "I thought it was a religious movie-Carnal Knowledge"

 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

13 minutes ago, KatieSC said:

 "I thought it was a religious movie-Carnal Knowledge"

 

I think I grew up in a cave.  Had to look that one up...and unfortunately the summary of the film did not enlighten me....🥴

 

But I certainly would like to know if its the anti-trans folks who are doing all this porn-watching.  And if so, I'd have quite the list of questions for them. 

[KatieSC]

I meant to say Cardinal Knowledge

[Ivy]

12 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

And if so, I'd have quite the list of questions for them. 

Yeah.  I also think they should ask themselves a few.  They might be surprised at the answers.  But then, shame can be pretty debilitating.

I know I had a hard time accepting myself.  But it was certainly worth it.

[Betty K]

On 1/9/2024 at 2:51 AM, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I can identify with enjoying being appreciated physically.  When I was young, I was shamed and scolded (especially by my mother) for my unique body and physical features. 

I forgot to reply to this the other day. I think we have something in common here. I wasn’t scolded by my mother (and I’m sorry to hear you were), but everyone from my dad to some teachers to the bullies who tormented me for twelve years thought o was too feminine. It has therefore been an incredible surprise to find that some men now celebrate me for the same trait. I think a search for that kind of affirmation can lead some trans women into toxic situations, unfortunately.

 

On 1/9/2024 at 2:51 AM, awkward-yet-sweet said:

the emphasis is on self control, and men are more obligated to the burden of self-control than women.

I would say that is absolutely fair, since women are responsible for far fewer crimes related to a lack of self control.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

3 minutes ago, Betty K said:

 I think a search for that kind of affirmation can lead some trans women into toxic situations, unfortunately.

I would say that is absolutely fair, since women are responsible for far fewer crimes related to a lack of self control.

 

I've wondered about affirmation and toxic relationships also.  Haven't experienced it...but I've been both careful and lucky.  For me, going from an upbringing where I wasn't wanted to suddenly having a relationship with my GF and experiencing her desire for me - it was really strange.  It took me a long time to get over being timid and flinchy, and longer to realize there were things about my body that partners actually like.  Still can't believe it some days, but I guess that's what happens when you're told for years how undesirable you are. 

 

As for the self control thing - that could be an interesting topic all on its own.  For example, I read one study from Britain that concluded that among the criminal population, transgender women maintain a male pattern of criminal behavior.  But after years of being with my GF (who is very aggressive), I'm less and less sure there's that much of a difference between genders in terms of crime, rather that female crime may be treated with greater tolerance.  My faith teaches that women are less capable of self-control and more ruled by passions and emotions than men.

 

To circle back around to the topic, the concept of self-control puts an interesting question in my mind about the transgender porn issue.  Are the men who watch it doing so in spite of community/faith/social restrictions?  Or are they doing it because of a lack of restrictions?  What does this say about the self-control of those who watch? 

[Betty K]

5 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

For example, I read one study from Britain that concluded that among the criminal population, transgender women maintain a male pattern of criminal behavior.  But after years of being with my GF (who is very aggressive), I'm less and less sure there's that much of a difference between genders in terms of crime, rather that female crime may be treated with greater tolerance.  My faith teaches that women are less capable of self-control and more ruled by passions and emotions than men.

I read that study too, and it thoroughly depressed and distressed me. There were caveats, like that no-one really knows how many trans women are in UK prisons because it is almost certain that some trans women “detransition” before going to prison for reasons of personal safety. I find that easy to believe, but it doesn’t negate the study’s findings. I don’t know what to say about that, except that I’m surprised. For me, a lack of testosterone in my body has been so calming, and resulted in far less compulsive sexual behaviour than previously. I would have expected the same would apply to most trans women.

 

9 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

But after years of being with my GF (who is very aggressive), I'm less and less sure there's that much of a difference between genders in terms of crime, rather that female crime may be treated with greater tolerance.

This is anecdotal evidence based on a study sample of one, and contradicted by every credible statistic I am aware of. 
 

10 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

My faith teaches that women are less capable of self-control and more ruled by passions and emotions than men.

That sounds like an antiquated and sexist viewpoint that flies in the face of reality to me. While women do seem generally more in touch with their emotions, that is not the same as being ruled by them. Imho if men could cry without shame, for eg, they’d probably spend less time exploding with anger and hurting people. Patriarchy is bad for both men and women, and its policing of male emotions is one of its worst crimes. Imho

[Betty K]

15 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Are the men who watch it doing so in spite of community/faith/social restrictions?  Or are they doing it because of a lack of restrictions?  What does this say about the self-control of those who watch? 

I’m guessing taboo is a big driver of it. Taboo makes things more exciting, so presumably the more repressive the culture the greater the excitement. And again, imo patriarchy is to blame. The policing of male sexuality is about as severe and destructive as the policing of male emotions.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

9 hours ago, Betty K said:

This is anecdotal evidence based on a study sample of one, and contradicted by every credible statistic I am aware of.

 

Well, we all know that 85% of statistics are made up on the spot... 😆  So goes the old joke, anyways.  My point in bringing up my little "sample of one" is that I notice reality and statistics tend not to align.  When the "anecdotal" evidence contradicts statistics, I find it interesting, especially when I see multiple examples of feral women just doing what they do.

 

9 hours ago, Betty K said:

That sounds like an antiquated and sexist viewpoint that flies in the face of reality to me. While women do seem generally more in touch with their emotions, that is not the same as being ruled by them. Imho if men could cry without shame, for eg, they’d probably spend less time exploding with anger and hurting people.

 

The policing of male sexuality is about as severe and destructive as the policing of male emotions.

 

Years ago, I would have agreed.  I grew up under a traditional form of patriarchy, and suffered because of it. 

But as I've lived in close proximity to a different form of patriarchy for several years, it hasn't been at all what I expected.  It has been interesting to watch the fatherhood process in the context of our community's beliefs.  Boys get raised with firmness and discipline, with the expectation that all will essentially be part-time soldiers.  There's still the "boys don't cry" aspect of it, which I'm not sure is healthy.  But there's a social structure that provides role models and men they can work with about their emotions.  The bonding of fathers and sons, brothers and friends, and an emphasis on faith counseling and confession/absolution seems to create men who are more balanced.

 

Is the policing of sexuality necessarily bad?  I don't really have an answer.  It would seem that creating taboos yields the "cookie jar effect" of greater interest.  Yet, a life without expectations and social standards can also be chaotic.  I definitely believe that personal faith-based morality is ideal, and that some level of generic morality taught by society to kids is necessary.  But where do we draw the line at what is healthy and what isn't?

 

 

[Ivy]

"Criminal activity" is not always violent.  People get locked up for sex work, or even smoking weed.

[Betty K]

6 hours ago, Ivy said:

"Criminal activity" is not always violent.  People get locked up for sex work, or even smoking weed.

Ivy, I know. But the study I saw was so distressing: it focussed only on sex crimes as defined by UK law. At first I thought, “Oh, well a lot of trans women are sex workers and sex work is largely criminalised in the UK, so that must be it.” But the study broke down the offenders by types of crimes and nothing related to sex work was included. From memory, they seemed to be all forms of sexual assault. I will link the study here if you like; I bookmarked it on my desktop. I did not have the heart to read it closely yet so I’d appreciate another pair of eyes. Since it was quoted by a website trying to deny trans women access to female prisons I am obviously skeptical of its sources, but at first glance it seemed legitimate. I guess the data could have been made up though.

[Betty K]

@Ivy, I’ve also had three young trans women in my local community tell me stories of having been sexually abused by other trans women recently (actually one of them was relating the story of one of her friends), and a prominent trans YouTuber was called out for sexual abuse by several other trans women. So I’m a bit shaken, and may have been especially susceptible to a faulty study. I hope so. I find this topic so deeply disturbing. 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

I just wonder where they get enough of a sample for a study. I hardly ever see a trans girl in the wild. Locally, it seems like me and my two friends are pretty much it for intersex/trans population.  I've gone to the lgbtq club enough in nearby city that I think I would have noticed others by now.

[Betty K]

6 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

When the "anecdotal" evidence contradicts statistics, I find it interesting, especially when I see multiple examples of feral women just doing what they do.

How many female sex offenders do you know? 
 

6 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Is the policing of sexuality necessarily bad?

Teaching young men that queerness is pathological is undeniably bad imo, yes. And there are still young men who have obviously gotten this idea from somewhere, though the situation does seem to be improving, at least in my part of the world. 

 

[Betty K]

5 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I just wonder where they get enough of a sample for a study. I hardly ever see a trans girl in the wild. Locally, it seems like me and my two friends are pretty much it for intersex/trans population.  I've gone to the lgbtq club enough in nearby city that I think I would have noticed others by now.

They were looking at the 150 or so known trans women in UK (or was it English?) prisons.

 

As to whether or not you’ve noticed trans girls around, remember that you can’t always tell. And non-passing trans women may not be very confident about being seen in public, especially if there is strong anti-trans sentiment in your area. Even at my local queer hangout I very rarely meet trans women; I meet them all behind closed doors at my trans support group.

[VickySGV]

Yes, Trans people have and do commit felonies and lesser crimes world wide.  Valid numbers from organizations such as the Williams Institute and the University Of California Law School at Los Angeles show that it is in about or a tad bit less than the felony commission records of Cis and other demographic groups, so overall, not large as far as total numbers go.  Sex Work, where it is a crime, is usually in the "lesser" crimes category and rarely results in long term incarceration and there again the participants are very few in number, or about the ratio of Trans to Cis, once again.  Trans people are estimated to be 2 - 2.6% of the population, which is over 8 billion people right now. 

 

Trans on Trans sexual interactions do go awry for the same reason Hetero and Gay relations go off the rails, and that is when alcohol or drugs are involved and when neither side really knows what the other person's boundaries are.  I have two good Trans friends who were the victims of date rape via drugs, one of whom is still healing physically 18 months later. The evils of the Cis /Het / Gay population do rest as heavily on us, but even the Gay is only 20% of the world population so the numbers do not justify the Hullabaloo given to them.  For every Gay or Trans felony offense there are 75 times more who are not sexual minorities who commit the most heinous crimes.